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Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7

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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#1701 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:12 pm

bsilver wrote:Jared Butler looked fantastic for Utah tonight, but we got Todd and Holiday. Could have turned that 23rd pick into some good prospects.


If you are familiar with my posts over the years you might recall that I was very huge on draft predictions back in the day. When I think about Jared Butler I actually remember the draft with Steph Curry. Jonny Floyd and Ricky Rubio were also in that draft. Washington under a previous GM decided that one year of veterans Randy Foye and Mike Miller was their best move and opted not to draft either player.

(Steph was THE NO BRAINER pick as was another player, DeJuan Blair pre-injuries or conditioning/foul issues.)

This draft Jared Butler was the no brainer.
After the Wizards GM really went and did it by having an imaginative, strong, draft day. I totally feel this as well;

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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#1702 » by payitforward » Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:22 pm

bsilver wrote:Have trouble understanding BPA concept when it comes to the draft, especially when not drafting top 1-5. How would it be done? Put college stats, competition level, eye test, athleticism, physical measurements, upside, character, etc., into a formula and voila?

And then there's the fact that picking around 15, even if your philosophy is BPA, the chances of picking the real BPA are very slim, more so if you're the Wizards.

The problem you raise -- uncertainty -- is real -- it's built into every aspect of life. Even that other idea of how to pick -- "need" -- isn't so easily assessed. Last year, everybody here was saying that we needed "rebounding." This year, it was "shooting."

Anyway, "uncertainty" doesn't go away if you pick by need: you're still going to try to pick the best SF prospect, or SG prospect. Or whatever need you're trying to address.

Now, "how" do you find the BPA, assuming you don't use the Ernie Grunfeld method (pin the tail on the donkey)?

Obviously the variables you mention are the most important ones. So, what you do is, you weigh all those things, & then you... pin the tail on the donkey! :)
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#1703 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:07 pm

I find that too many times BPA is based on this nebulous concept of potential. Freshmen tend to get drafted much higher than upperclassmen. Taller or longer tends to go higher than skill or numerical productivity.

Cameron Thomas and Sharife Cooper both got selected as freshmen but they’re not tall or lengthy like a Josh Giddy.
After the Wizards GM really went and did it by having an imaginative, strong, draft day. I totally feel this as well;

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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#1704 » by payitforward » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:16 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
bsilver wrote:Jared Butler looked fantastic for Utah tonight, but we got Todd and Holiday. Could have turned that 23rd pick into some good prospects.

If you are familiar with my posts over the years you might recall that I was very huge on draft predictions back in the day. When I think about Jared Butler I actually remember the draft with Steph Curry. Jonny Floyd and Ricky Rubio were also in that draft....

(Make that Jonny Flynn not Jonny Floyd)
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:...Washington under a previous GM decided that one year of veterans Randy Foye and Mike Miller was their best move and opted not to draft either player.

Oh, it was way worse than that.

After all, even if you whiffed on Steph, you could at least have gotten Demar DeRozan (9). Or Jrue Holiday (17). Or Taj Gibson (26). Or Patrick Beverly (42). Or Danny Green (46).

Plus, you forgot to mention the name of the #2 pick in that draft. Anybody know it off hand? I do. He's my poster boy for how hard it is to pick accurately. Along with the guy who went #60 only 2 years later.

& it is that bad every single year. Take a look at 2010, when we got lucky & snagged the #1 pick. The first 8 picks that year were: John Wall, Evan Turner, Derrick Favors, Wesley Johnson, DeMarcus Cousins, Ekpe Udoh, Greg Monroe & Al Farouq Aminu.

Thing is... the guy taken 9th was better than all of them. & the 10th player taken was better than the guy taken 9th!

& who was the best player taken after that guy? You could make an argument that it was the guy who went #40. It sure wasn't the guy who went #12.

I'd be willing to bet there isn't a single person on this Board who can name all 4 of those players without looking online to see who they were.

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:...(Steph was THE NO BRAINER pick... This draft Jared Butler was the no brainer.

Butler might turn out great. One thing is for absolutely sure: past the #3 pick, the list of guys in order of how good they become will be almost completely unrelated to where they were chosen.
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#1705 » by bsilver » Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:45 am

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
bsilver wrote:Jared Butler looked fantastic for Utah tonight, but we got Todd and Holiday. Could have turned that 23rd pick into some good prospects.


If you are familiar with my posts over the years you might recall that I was very huge on draft predictions back in the day. When I think about Jared Butler I actually remember the draft with Steph Curry. Jonny Floyd and Ricky Rubio were also in that draft. Washington under a previous GM decided that one year of veterans Randy Foye and Mike Miller was their best move and opted not to draft either player.

(Steph was THE NO BRAINER pick as was another player, DeJuan Blair pre-injuries or conditioning/foul issues.)

This draft Jared Butler was the no brainer.

Unfortunately, can’t say I was on the Steph Curry bandwagon. I was surprised Flynn was such a bust, but the biggest bust was Hasheem Thabeet. A lot of experts missed Curry’s greatness.


Trading our pick for Foye/Miller was a disappointment. The story I heard was that Abe Pollin was in poor health so we made the trade for veterans to win now while Abe was still alive. He died later that year.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#1706 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:57 am

If the GM had been anywhere near as competent as some of us he would have realized the best move would have been to get Steph Curry
After the Wizards GM really went and did it by having an imaginative, strong, draft day. I totally feel this as well;

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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#1707 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:00 am

payitforward wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
bsilver wrote:Jared Butler looked fantastic for Utah tonight, but we got Todd and Holiday. Could have turned that 23rd pick into some good prospects.

If you are familiar with my posts over the years you might recall that I was very huge on draft predictions back in the day. When I think about Jared Butler I actually remember the draft with Steph Curry. Jonny Floyd and Ricky Rubio were also in that draft....

(Make that Jonny Flynn not Jonny Floyd)
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:...Washington under a previous GM decided that one year of veterans Randy Foye and Mike Miller was their best move and opted not to draft either player.

Oh, it was way worse than that.

After all, even if you whiffed on Steph, you could at least have gotten Demar DeRozan (9). Or Jrue Holiday (17). Or Taj Gibson (26). Or Patrick Beverly (42). Or Danny Green (46).

Plus, you forgot to mention the name of the #2 pick in that draft. Anybody know it off hand? I do. He's my poster boy for how hard it is to pick accurately. Along with the guy who went #60 only 2 years later.

& it is that bad every single year. Take a look at 2010, when we got lucky & snagged the #1 pick. The first 8 picks that year were: John Wall, Evan Turner, Derrick Favors, Wesley Johnson, DeMarcus Cousins, Ekpe Udoh, Greg Monroe & Al Farouq Aminu.

Thing is... the guy taken 9th was better than all of them. & the 10th player taken was better than the guy taken 9th!

& who was the best player taken after that guy? You could make an argument that it was the guy who went #40. It sure wasn't the guy who went #12.

I'd be willing to bet there isn't a single person on this Board who can name all 4 of those players without looking online to see who they were.

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:...(Steph was THE NO BRAINER pick... This draft Jared Butler was the no brainer.

Butler might turn out great. One thing is for absolutely sure: past the #3 pick, the list of guys in order of how good they become will be almost completely unrelated to where they were chosen.
It was excruciating Lee horrific Lee bad

Let me go find my bifocals. :-)
After the Wizards GM really went and did it by having an imaginative, strong, draft day. I totally feel this as well;

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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#1708 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:03 am

payitforward wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
bsilver wrote:Jared Butler looked fantastic for Utah tonight, but we got Todd and Holiday. Could have turned that 23rd pick into some good prospects.

If you are familiar with my posts over the years you might recall that I was very huge on draft predictions back in the day. When I think about Jared Butler I actually remember the draft with Steph Curry. Jonny Floyd and Ricky Rubio were also in that draft....

(Make that Jonny Flynn not Jonny Floyd)
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:...Washington under a previous GM decided that one year of veterans Randy Foye and Mike Miller was their best move and opted not to draft either player.

Oh, it was way worse than that.

After all, even if you whiffed on Steph, you could at least have gotten Demar DeRozan (9). Or Jrue Holiday (17). Or Taj Gibson (26). Or Patrick Beverly (42). Or Danny Green (46).

Plus, you forgot to mention the name of the #2 pick in that draft. Anybody know it off hand? I do. He's my poster boy for how hard it is to pick accurately. Along with the guy who went #60 only 2 years later.

& it is that bad every single year. Take a look at 2010, when we got lucky & snagged the #1 pick. The first 8 picks that year were: John Wall, Evan Turner, Derrick Favors, Wesley Johnson, DeMarcus Cousins, Ekpe Udoh, Greg Monroe & Al Farouq Aminu.

Thing is... the guy taken 9th was better than all of them. & the 10th player taken was better than the guy taken 9th!

& who was the best player taken after that guy? You could make an argument that it was the guy who went #40. It sure wasn't the guy who went #12.

I'd be willing to bet there isn't a single person on this Board who can name all 4 of those players without looking online to see who they were.

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:...(Steph was THE NO BRAINER pick... This draft Jared Butler was the no brainer.

Butler might turn out great. One thing is for absolutely sure: past the #3 pick, the list of guys in order of how good they become will be almost completely unrelated to where they were chosen.
I really appreciate this kind of post but I am so busy and today has been a productive day. Pay it forward today I left $40 at Walmart for the guys in back of me. Long story short I appreciate your offer to pay it forward! Thank you for being there for me and encouragement and spirit even if I didn't take the money. Doc Lincoln as well
After the Wizards GM really went and did it by having an imaginative, strong, draft day. I totally feel this as well;

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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#1709 » by mhd » Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:18 am

Dat was on the money with respect to Josh Giddey. He could arguably turn out to be the best player in this draft.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#1710 » by verbal8 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:22 am

payitforward wrote:
bsilver wrote:Have trouble understanding BPA concept when it comes to the draft, especially when not drafting top 1-5. How would it be done? Put college stats, competition level, eye test, athleticism, physical measurements, upside, character, etc., into a formula and voila?

And then there's the fact that picking around 15, even if your philosophy is BPA, the chances of picking the real BPA are very slim, more so if you're the Wizards.

The problem you raise -- uncertainty -- is real -- it's built into every aspect of life. Even that other idea of how to pick -- "need" -- isn't so easily assessed. Last year, everybody here was saying that we needed "rebounding." This year, it was "shooting."

Anyway, "uncertainty" doesn't go away if you pick by need: you're still going to try to pick the best SF prospect, or SG prospect. Or whatever need you're trying to address.

Now, "how" do you find the BPA, assuming you don't use the Ernie Grunfeld method (pin the tail on the donkey)?

Obviously the variables you mention are the most important ones. So, what you do is, you weigh all those things, & then you... pin the tail on the donkey! :)


With positions in the NBA blurring even more than the past, I think the argument for BPA - especially a team with a lack of talent is stronger than ever.

That said, I think play-off teams can and should draft more for fit. Some teams like the Spurs have a system/culture and tend to draft players to fit that. A good team will generally have fewer minutes available for rookies and young players, so they tend to draft for where the player have an opportunity for minutes rather than on raw talent alone. Also there is an argument for generally older players with a higher floor/low ceiling if the time frame is the rookie contract vs. hopefully the next contract.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#1711 » by verbal8 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:29 am

It is rare to see two contenders in the same conference trade stars, but there would be a certain logic in a Kyrie/Simmons deal.

Kyrie would definitely be the best return the Sixers could possibly get for Simmons. With the Nets in "title or bust" mode, a flawed star seems better than the alternative of no production.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#1712 » by bsilver » Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:40 pm

verbal8 wrote:It is rare to see two contenders in the same conference trade stars, but there would be a certain logic in a Kyrie/Simmons deal.

Kyrie would definitely be the best return the Sixers could possibly get for Simmons. With the Nets in "title or bust" mode, a flawed star seems better than the alternative of no production.

Minus all the drama, I’d probably prefer to have Simmons over Kyrie. But, given the current unique situation, this trade has great benefits for both sides.

All eyes would be on Simmons in NYC, but playing with Harden and Durant would take much of the pressure off. He could concentrate on defense, rebounding, playmaking, and leave the scoring to others.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#1713 » by verbal8 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:50 pm

bsilver wrote:
verbal8 wrote:It is rare to see two contenders in the same conference trade stars, but there would be a certain logic in a Kyrie/Simmons deal.

Kyrie would definitely be the best return the Sixers could possibly get for Simmons. With the Nets in "title or bust" mode, a flawed star seems better than the alternative of no production.

Minus all the drama, I’d probably prefer to have Simmons over Kyrie. But, given the current unique situation, this trade has great benefits for both sides.

All eyes would be on Simmons in NYC, but playing with Harden and Durant would take much of the pressure off. He could concentrate on defense, rebounding, playmaking, and leave the scoring to others.


If you look at Simmons as a star his shortcomings are obvious. If you look at him as a role player, he is the best role player in the NBA.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#1714 » by J-Ves » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:38 am

Boston cut Mathews
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#1715 » by FAH1223 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:39 am

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter


Read on Twitter
?s=21

Read on Twitter


The max for Ayton is 5 years $170M.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#1716 » by closg00 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:11 pm

Toronto has reportedly asked Isaac Bonga and Sam Dekker to push the date their contracts guarantee to Nov 6, per ESPN's Bobby Marks. That gives Toronto an extra two weeks to decide what to do with the two forwards and potentially shed $1.67 million to get below the luxury tax threshold at a later date. The Raptors could keep the two forwards around until Chris Boucher and Yuta Watanabe get healthy and then waive one of them to save some money.

https://www.si.com/nba/raptors/news/toronto-raptors-luxury-tax-explained
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#1717 » by Eli Babak » Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:38 pm

Ayton is not worth a **** max contract. Is he really that much better than, say, Clint Capela? 4-5 years and 80-110M should've been more than enough for him. Suns did the right thing but at the same time giving Landry Shamet +40M deal makes you wonder are they really that smart...

Ben Simmons is such a clown. He returned to Philly because of $$$, but got kicked out of practice because he was doing nothing. I still kinda like him as a player but as a person... eww, I wouldn't want him anywhere near my team.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#1718 » by I_Like_Dirt » Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:03 pm

Eli Babak wrote:Ayton is not worth a **** max contract. Is he really that much better than, say, Clint Capela? 4-5 years and 80-110M should've been more than enough for him. Suns did the right thing but at the same time giving Landry Shamet +40M deal makes you wonder are they really that smart...

Ben Simmons is such a clown. He returned to Philly because of $$$, but got kicked out of practice because he was doing nothing. I still kinda like him as a player but as a person... eww, I wouldn't want him anywhere near my team.
Honestly, while Ben definitely has his share of the blame here, it sure does reinforce the notion that Morey and Doc aren't particularly great at building positive work environments. Doc was talking about convincing Simmons to come back and just be one of the guys and nobody was expecting him to be anything but himself. What did he think that would look like? Is he really that out of touch?
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#1719 » by DCZards » Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:53 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
Eli Babak wrote:Ayton is not worth a **** max contract. Is he really that much better than, say, Clint Capela? 4-5 years and 80-110M should've been more than enough for him. Suns did the right thing but at the same time giving Landry Shamet +40M deal makes you wonder are they really that smart...

Ben Simmons is such a clown. He returned to Philly because of $$$, but got kicked out of practice because he was doing nothing. I still kinda like him as a player but as a person... eww, I wouldn't want him anywhere near my team.
Honestly, while Ben definitely has his share of the blame here, it sure does reinforce the notion that Morey and Doc aren't particularly great at building positive work environments. Doc was talking about convincing Simmons to come back and just be one of the guys and nobody was expecting him to be anything but himself. What did he think that would look like? Is he really that out of touch?

Simmons got kicked out of practice and suspended for refusing River's request that he participate in defensive drills. That's selfish and unacceptable, imo.

I don't know how one player's childish behavior says anything about the Sixers work environment.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#1720 » by I_Like_Dirt » Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:13 pm

DCZards wrote:
I_Like_Dirt wrote:
Eli Babak wrote:Ayton is not worth a **** max contract. Is he really that much better than, say, Clint Capela? 4-5 years and 80-110M should've been more than enough for him. Suns did the right thing but at the same time giving Landry Shamet +40M deal makes you wonder are they really that smart...

Ben Simmons is such a clown. He returned to Philly because of $$$, but got kicked out of practice because he was doing nothing. I still kinda like him as a player but as a person... eww, I wouldn't want him anywhere near my team.
Honestly, while Ben definitely has his share of the blame here, it sure does reinforce the notion that Morey and Doc aren't particularly great at building positive work environments. Doc was talking about convincing Simmons to come back and just be one of the guys and nobody was expecting him to be anything but himself. What did he think that would look like? Is he really that out of touch?

Simmons got kicked out of practice and suspended for refusing River's request that he participate in defensive drills. That's selfish and unacceptable, imo.

I don't know how one player's childish behavior says anything about the Sixers work environment.
It is. It's also not like he didn't make it clear where his head was at yet Morey and Doc walked right into it anyway. Seriously, I'm curious how they figured this could possibly go any other way. They walked right into this and I'm not at all sure why. What did they think had changed that would sudden make Simmons more motivated? The fact that they threatened his salary publicly through the media on repeated occasions? That's pretty much behavior in line with what got them in this situation in the first place with Morey leaking everything to protect his image as he tends to do, and Doc dumping on Simmons at the end of playoff press conference. Doc tried nothing and ran out of ideas. They're like Flanders' parents.
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