Official Thread - Wizards vs Mavs SL (7/15/10)

[Hoopalotta]

McGee's rebounding is only a problem on the defensive side, where it's a pretty epic hole. But he's pretty cracker-jack on the offensive boards already.

[no D in Hibachi]

McGee's rebounding is only a problem on the defensive side, where it's a pretty epic hole. But he's pretty cracker-jack on the offensive boards already.

I'll grant you that, however, if he didn't have John Wall putting constant pressure on the defense how many offensive boards would be available to McGee? Same way that Haywood has always been a top offensive rebounder in the league. Butler and Arenas would attack, drow Haywood's man, and Haywood would be there for the slam, two hands (best dave johnson impression).

[omegatronic3]

man if wall could hit the broad side of a barn he'd bea combination AI and Steve Nash....the guys sees thing developing and set guys up beautifully. The worry I have is that hes no threat to shoot so his game is driving to the rim. I dont think hes strong enough to consistently take the contact hes gonna take...id say right now hes equivalent to a Rajon Rondo....we'll see if he can develop a consistent shot

[DCsOwn]

man if wall could hit the broad side of a barn he'd bea combination AI and Steve Nash....the guys sees thing developing and set guys up beautifully. The worry I have is that hes no threat to shoot so his game is driving to the rim. I dont think hes strong enough to consistently take the contact hes gonna take...id say right now hes equivalent to a Rajon Rondo....we'll see if he can develop a consistent shot

His shooting stroke is much better than Rondo's though. Rondo literally looks like he's chucking the ball when he gets anywhere farther than about 15 feet. Wall actually has nice form and touch, so I think you'll see a pretty significant uptick in his fg percentages over the next few seasons. That nice form deteriorates the farther he ventures out, but the form on his midrange shot is very good.

[closg00]

Anyone have an opinion on Lin? I didnt see the game, but have read other posters rave about him.

Jeremy Lin and John Wall faced off in the fourth quarter of the Wizards-Mavericks game in Vegas and pretty much played each other to a standstill. That’s right. An undrafted Harvard, SMAHRT kid, point guard went toe-to-toe with the number-one pick in the NBA draft and sort-of held his own. The final box score will show John Wall with an impressive 21 points (let’s just forget about the 4/19 shooting), 10 assists and seven rebounds. But it won’t show that the majority of the Lin’s 11 fourth quarter points were the result of him getting the better of the 'best player in the draft' for times than Wall will care to remember. Lin and Wall played the equivalent of an iso chess match on the hardwood game board. The kid from the Ivy League refused to back down from the YouTube sensation and while Wall walked away with the highlight reel, Lin walked away as the fan favorite."

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

McGee did something noone in the entire NBA has done since 1984 when he had 25 points and 15 rebounds in under 30 minutes. Kevin McHale is the last guy to do that.

All this talk about his rebounding should be tempered with the FACTS.

Javale McGee averages more rebounds per minute than Andray Blatche or Antawn Jamison. McGee's 9 rebounds per 36 minutes was the third highest on the team behind Haywood and Singleton.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... eja01.html

Also, last season Javale finished #1 in the league in block percentage.

Javale is 22 years old and is a good rebounder, even if he would be a lot better if he boxed out. McGee's biggest liability is his defense. OTOH his offense is getting better and better.

[closg00]

Just read all of your tweets Dat, thanks!

[Zonkerbl]

where's the darn box score?

[Hoopalotta]

where's the darn box score?

Here it is: http://www.nba.com/summerleague/games/2 ... einfo.html

You've got to scroll down and hit the tab header.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

mcgee continues to irritate me by not rebounding and more obsessed with catching oops

That was my thought as well, summer league is fool's gold for guys like McGee. No way he gets away with those alley-oops and razzle dazzle moves in the regular season. In fact, the only thing McGee did which impressed me from a development standpoint was his sweeping hook shot which was miss-aimed, but with a soft touch. McGee still doesn't box out, still sets horrible screens, and still goes flying at every pump fake. Sure he's long and beautiful to watch in a George Gervin type of way, but McGee is missing the mark, badly. I still have high hopes for McGee, but until he fundamentally develops and probably physically develops he will be an overall below average center in the NBA.

no D, Javale doesn't put energy in rebounding like he does for shotblocking. No doubt about it.

pancakes, I agree with you about certain weaknesses. McGee I think sets the worst screens I've ever seen from an NBA player. He rarely boxes out. His rebounds come from coming over the back or just out-quicking guys to the ball. He's the opposite of a positional rebounder. He want to block every shot and to dunk the ball. But he doesn't have a go get it mentality on the boards like a DeJuan Blair or a Paul Millsap.

Those weaknesses don't bother coming from Javale at 22 years old. What I see in summer league is the real deal IMO.

Whenever Javale runs with John Wall and beats opponents downcourt in transition he will do the same thing in regular season that he's doing right now in summer league. Could be Andray Blatche or Seraphin rebounds the ball while those two are streaking up court. Like the Showtime Lakers the Wizards are going to have some razzle dazzle and McGee's going to make Sports Center, often.

I think Javale will improve markedly on the defensive end this year. He's the kind of player who is going to keep getting better and better. Instead of getting upset about him going after every block, I choose to admire the high motor. Javale will get smarter with playing time. He's going to figure out when not to bite on pump fakes. He's gotten bigger and stronger this offseason. That's going to help him hold his base position. I believe he's a like a more athletic Pau Gasol. Once Javale puts on another 10-15 pounds he's going to be a terror on offense.

I see McGee getting better and better.

[Hoopalotta]

Yeah, I don't think it's even really fair to just make a blanket statement about his defense. Overall it's bad, but he has specific strengths and weaknesses there.

Strengths? Yes.

He's hyper attuned what the ball handler is doing and will make efforts to swing over to protect the rim. If anyone wants to complain about him biting on pump fakes, at least don't take for granted that he's in position to do it to start with, as a lot of guys won't be. I mean, he's pretty much all day with tpicking up penetrators and his rotations are generally on time. My main problem with his reads here is that he'll often lock in on preventing a low percentage shot and get all sorts of out of position if the ball rotates or in making way for an offensive board off of the miss.

Now of course there are all sorts of weaknesses that can be documented, but I think it's worth saying that not every single effort or instinct of McGee's on the defensive end is bad. To that end, here's the Bullet's Forever player review with his synergy sports numbers, including defensive ratings:

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2010/5/24 ... evaluation

The numbers have him as being ranked 272 as a post defender, which sounds about right, though he seems to be elite against spot up shots and and pick and rolls (waht?). Lies, damn lies and statistics. And we'll ignore the offensive rebound-put back dunks that followed the challenging of the spot up shots. But seriously, there were games last year when Javale changed like 15-20 shots. J.J. Hickson can't do that, I don't care what you feed him.

But the whole thing is really compounded negatively by lack of a proper rebounder and I have to think that Javale and Unseld would have been able to work together.

[keynote]

Re: Lin: Jeremy definitely opened some eyes tonight. I don't know if he got the better of Wall in the 4Q (he first got hot when he was guarded by Hudson, IIRC), but he looked like he belonged.

As for Wall's defense vs. Lin: While I'm generally impressed with Wall's defensive technique and effort as a rook, he really struggled with getting around picks on the pick and roll all night - especially in the 4Q. He didn't beat the picking player to the spot, and he was slow to get around the pick whether he went above or below. It didn't help that DAL's big man was wide enough to cause problems once the pick was set. Even so, the entire team needs to get better at P&R defense, frankly; I didn't see the picker's defender (McGee, or whoever) doing enough to shade over and stop the ball.

Most of Lin's 4Q productivity came out of the P&R. I don't recall Lin doing much vs. Wall outside of that context.

[nate33]

man if wall could hit the broad side of a barn he'd bea combination AI and Steve Nash....the guys sees thing developing and set guys up beautifully. The worry I have is that hes no threat to shoot so his game is driving to the rim. I dont think hes strong enough to consistently take the contact hes gonna take...id say right now hes equivalent to a Rajon Rondo....we'll see if he can develop a consistent shot

Wall's shot is actually better than advertised, he just doesn't have great range yet. He's money with the pull-up 15-17 footer, but when he's pushed out to 19-20 feet he can't make jack. I'm not worried. He has the stroke and the work ethic to develop into a good shooter over time.

[The Consiglieri]

man if wall could hit the broad side of a barn he'd bea combination AI and Steve Nash....the guys sees thing developing and set guys up beautifully. The worry I have is that hes no threat to shoot so his game is driving to the rim. I dont think hes strong enough to consistently take the contact hes gonna take...id say right now hes equivalent to a Rajon Rondo....we'll see if he can develop a consistent shot

I know you're praising his upside if he can develop a jump shot but this reminds me of something else that bothered me in the summer league posts. Why are people throwing guys under the bus (Randle), praising guys beyond all reason (Cartier), or making declaritive projections on a players definitive abilities (Wall's Jump Shot) based on a game, or two or three. I'd rather go on Randle's career at Cal (probably the best career performance from a Cal player since Abdur-Rahim's short time at Cal when I was there) then on his first ever summer league game. I'd like to sit and wait and bet on Cartier, but not assume that he's anything more than a bench player going forward without legit proofs, im happy and excited (this is a message board, we engage in gross generalitzations, overly superlative analysis, and overly negative self-indulgence with good reason), and I think that we can't know or fully judge Wall and his upside when it comes to his jump shot when he's just turned 19, and has played zero NBA games in his career. He's put the work in on every aspect of his career to this date, he's a different guy now than the apparently arrogant kid with stardom and a massive ego circa age 16. If he's grown this much in 3 years, my guess is that by the time he's the equivalent of a junior or senior in college, you know, like Booker was a few months ago, maybe he's got that jump shot down.

What else does he have to work on after all? Maybe he'll have the same problems, and address none of them and improve not at all (the sense i get of your perceptions of Nick Young), and simply be a fantastic playmaking pg w/a bad jump shot, and insane speed of play and thought in his game, maybe that's his fate, but I do think we shouldn't make final judgments on any of these guys based on where they stand as young as they are. Hell, even McGee, actually only started one year at UNR, one year. Maybe he'll get it too!

Let's see what happens, evaluate happily, but not leave zero room for change, both up and down, in our perceptions of players.

[Rafael122]

Agreed with Nate, while it's nice to see Cartier can shoot, I'd like to see how this guy does against legit pro players. He's raining 3s against guys who will be in the D-League next season. I'd probably offer Martin a contact anyway, but I'd be much more impressed if he did it against tougher competition.

[dnk]

man if wall could hit the broad side of a barn he'd bea combination AI and Steve Nash....the guys sees thing developing and set guys up beautifully. The worry I have is that hes no threat to shoot so his game is driving to the rim. I dont think hes strong enough to consistently take the contact hes gonna take...id say right now hes equivalent to a Rajon Rondo....we'll see if he can develop a consistent shot

I know you're praising his upside if he can develop a jump shot but this reminds me of something else that bothered me in the summer league posts. Why are people throwing guys under the bus (Randle), praising guys beyond all reason (Cartier), or making declaritive projections on a players definitive abilities (Wall's Jump Shot) based on a game, or two or three. I'd rather go on Randle's career at Cal (probably the best career performance from a Cal player since Abdur-Rahim's short time at Cal when I was there) then on his first ever summer league game. I'd like to sit and wait and bet on Cartier, but not assume that he's anything more than a bench player going forward without legit proofs, im happy and excited (this is a message board, we engage in gross generalitzations, overly superlative analysis, and overly negative self-indulgence with good reason), and I think that we can't know or fully judge Wall and his upside when it comes to his jump shot when he's just turned 19, and has played zero NBA games in his career. He's put the work in on every aspect of his career to this date, he's a different guy now than the apparently arrogant kid with stardom and a massive ego circa age 16. If he's grown this much in 3 years, my guess is that by the time he's the equivalent of a junior or senior in college, you know, like Booker was a few months ago, maybe he's got that jump shot down.

What else does he have to work on after all? Maybe he'll have the same problems, and address none of them and improve not at all (the sense i get of your perceptions of Nick Young), and simply be a fantastic playmaking pg w/a bad jump shot, and insane speed of play and thought in his game, maybe that's his fate, but I do think we shouldn't make final judgments on any of these guys based on where they stand as young as they are. Hell, even McGee, actually only started one year at UNR, one year. Maybe he'll get it too!

Let's see what happens, evaluate happily, but not leave zero room for change, both up and down, in our perceptions of players.

Who is throwing Randle under the bus?

Who is arguing Cartier is anything more than a bench player? Pretty much everyone agrees he should be signed to a one-year deal, but that's it. We're not advocating him starting.

I thought the thing with Wall was that he wasn't a star with a huge ego at 16. Troublesome, definitely, but he got cut from one high school's varsity team as a sophomore. There have been articles about how different he is from other #1 overall picks because he hasn't been groomed for NBA stardom since he was 14-16. He blew up the summer before his junior year.

Although you could surely argue transferring solely to play basketball is indicative of a huge ego...

[DCZards]

Although you could surely argue transferring solely to play basketball is indicative of a huge ego...

Usually when a high school-age kid transfers from school to school, it's not a reflection of his "ego" but the influence of coaches, parents and other adultsi n his life. In Wall's case, transferring to the high school he ended up at was in his best interest as a young man from a difficult background...from what I understand.