The Amazingly Suck Theodore Leonsis Thread

[montestewart]

I'm no fan of Flip but comparing him to the glory days of EJ is like comparing the color and size of turds.

Scatologists, coprologists, and proctologists the world over say, "What's wrong with that?"

[pancakes3]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc- ... _blog.html

even 2nd hand, ted can't be happy about this.

[Induveca]

Ted/Grunfeld were also ripped on PTI today but in a much more substantial way than their usual "Wizards stink" shtick.

Grunfeld was called out for assembling a team of "clueless" "unprofessional" players. The three named specifically were Blatche/Young/McGee (only player they specifically excluded was Wall).

Leonsis was called out for promising progression, and charging "A list prices for D class talent".

Past few years Kornheiser and Wilbon have been mostly BS. But they were on point with this one......

[closg00]

Fantastic article from Eric Bickel lol..no really

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2012/01/ ... e-wizards/

Great article Jai, read-it everyone, the drumbeat has started.

[hands11]

i was mocked for creating this thread last year.

Naso much now eh?

No, just as much. It is shortsighted.

But is good for those that like to overreact and vent and we have one or two of that type on the board.

So it is useful. At least it funnels a lot of the trash that pollutes other threads Sadly not enough

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Eddie was a solid assistant coach that was overmatched as a head coach. He rode the coatails of Gilbert Arenas' fliration with being an elite player to a few playoff appearances, otherwise he was a miserable failure here, Sacramento and Philadelphia.

I'm no fan of Flip but comparing him to the glory days of EJ is like comparing the color and size of turds. Either way they both stink. This is just an excerise in futility.

Actually, when I eat right ...

Nah, I won't go there.

[tontoz]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/post/going-to-the-wizards-game-for-30-cents/2012/01/11/gIQAQVodrP_blog.html

even 2nd hand, ted can't be happy about this.

This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to watch Javale goaltend, Dray shoot 18 footers and The Nick Young baseline ballet, all against a team from Canada. Folks, it doesn't get much better than this.”

They reported plenty of legroom, and a generally good-natured crowd that was happy to support the home team.

“Except they’d boo Andray Blatche every other play, because he takes random jump shots and thinks it’s a good idea,” Walsh pointed out.

[hands11]

Eddie was a solid assistant coach that was overmatched as a head coach. He rode the coatails of Gilbert Arenas' fliration with being an elite player to a few playoff appearances, otherwise he was a miserable failure here, Sacramento and Philadelphia.

I'm no fan of Flip but comparing him to the glory days of EJ is like comparing the color and size of turds. Either way they both stink. This is just an excerise in futility.

Actually, when I eat right ...

Nah, I won't go there.

Comparing Flip and EFJ is able.

EFJ couldn't hold one of Flips green and yellow swirls.

Flip is willing to break balls and he changes line ups. He is not trying to make a name to cash in. He is trying to build a team by teaching these kids how to do it right.

[closg00]

Pick-up today's Post Express, Matt Swenson is calling for Ted to do a overhaul of the Wiz starting with who the media are now referring-to as "The Architect" of the Wizards. It is finally ok in the Washington sports media to call for Ernie's head.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Eddie was a solid assistant coach that was overmatched as a head coach. He rode the coatails of Gilbert Arenas' fliration with being an elite player to a few playoff appearances, otherwise he was a miserable failure here, Sacramento and Philadelphia.

I'm no fan of Flip but comparing him to the glory days of EJ is like comparing the color and size of turds. Either way they both stink. This is just an excerise in futility.

Actually, when I eat right ...

Nah, I won't go there.

Comparing Flip and EFJ is able.

EFJ couldn't hold one of Flips green and yellow swirls.

Flip is willing to break balls and he changes line ups. He is not trying to make a name to cash in. He is trying to build a team by teaching these kids how to do it right.

EJ coached 4 Wizards playoff teams.

You, Nivek, and the brightest people on this site can be as smug as you want when comparing Flip Saunders to Eddie Jordan. My opinion is just as valid as yours. They are just subjective views. None can be proven.

I believe Eddie Jordan had a gift in being able to make more out of marginal players than Flip Saunders does. For all the scoring Arenas, Jamison, and Butler did there were no athletes and game changers on defense other than perhaps Haywood (a bit stiff and robotic), Ruffin (self check on offense), and Jeffries (see Ruffin). The roster during EJ's years had precious few good bigs. EJ had Nick Young, Javale McGee, and Andray Blatche FOUR YEARS AGO.

You guys can go on and on about the hand that Flip Saunders was dealt. I disagree.

[Zonkerbl]

But isn't the argument against EJ that he didn't give a turd about defense? That he chased off Thibodeau who dared question his idiotic defensive tactics (well, that's what I think happened anyway). This is the guy who's defensive philosophy against the three was "we hope they miss?" We all know he was good on the offensive side.

EJ SUCKED. You can't be a head coach and coach only one side of the game. I don't care how good he was on offense.

Flip is a pretty crappy communicator. He throws our players under the bus continually in the media. You think McGee is going to want to stay here now, after all the crap he's had to endure from Flip? Flip may be some kind of genius but the zards can't make heads or tails of what he's trying to teach them. I imagine about 80% of that is that they are dumb as rocks, because Heinrich didn't seem to have any problem doing what Flip wanted. But you have to lay some of the blame on Flip for not getting through to the team.

I think they were both mediocre. But EJ had some obvious, easily fixable flaws that he refused to address. Flip has some minor communication issues that at any point could blow up into big, impossible to solve issues. On the balance I think Flip sucks less than EJ.

[WizarDynasty]

the biggest problem with Grunfeld is that he is about 5 season too late in grabbing guys like vesely and singleton, booker, seraphin.
It's not until the last 3 season that he has begun to get young defensive role playing bigs with upside.

He finally figured out how to get defensive role players but fail to bring in the resources to quickly develop their offensive shortcomings and i think it is because Grunfeld was treading waters he had never tread before. I think Grunfeld is an offensive person who valued the jumpshot above all else and his years with washington, he has learned through trial and error how to build a contender. His mistakes with purely offensive players in the past with no defensive upside and not understanding how to quickly develop not understanding the defiencies of his projects and how to quickly correct their deficiencies with world reknown experts quickly is the major reason why people are calling for his head.
McGee and Blatche...poor post footwork and lateral quickness.
Seraphin no dribbling skills for a powerforward
Vesely, Singleton, Wall, ---
All of the players (including Young up until close to the end of last year) had poor dribbling skills but Grunfeld didn't take it upon himself to raise their dribbling skills to elite..yet he had the power to do so. Grunfeld was to quck to leave it to the coach and if the coach thought it was fine, then so the grunfeld.
I think i have alerted everyone on this board about how poor this team's dribbling skills are yet you don't see public statements from Grunfeld making this critical area a top concern for the organization.
So if the top management doesn't see a problem with it, then contractors don't see it being a problem however, but we expect Grunfeld to guide this organization in the best interest of the fans. The fans want the best product possible and players who can't dribble on a high professional level should have been diagnosed and made a top priority a very long time ago by the CEO. However if the CEO doesn't have the skills to diagnose fundamental problems that keep an organization from improving..well that means you need to find a expert GM who can.
the quicker leonsis can figure out what it takes for young players to quickly develop into elite players, the quicker he can figure which GM's won't use the wizards as a learning curve experience.
Grunfeld is still valueable because he has learned quite a bit from his mistakes and there aren't many GM's who we can say have better skills at developing young prospect into elite talents. I definitely think Oklahoma GM knows a thing or to with the IBaka and Mullen picks.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

But isn't the argument against EJ that he didn't give a turd about defense? That he chased off Thibodeau who dared question his idiotic defensive tactics (well, that's what I think happened anyway). This is the guy who's defensive philosophy against the three was "we hope they miss?" We all know he was good on the offensive side.

EJ SUCKED. You can't be a head coach and coach only one side of the game. I don't care how good he was on offense.

Flip is a pretty crappy communicator. He throws our players under the bus continually in the media. You think McGee is going to want to stay here now, after all the crap he's had to endure from Flip? Flip may be some kind of genius but the zards can't make heads or tails of what he's trying to teach them. I imagine about 80% of that is that they are dumb as rocks, because Heinrich didn't seem to have any problem doing what Flip wanted. But you have to lay some of the blame on Flip for not getting through to the team.

I think they were both mediocre. But EJ had some obvious, easily fixable flaws that he refused to address. Flip has some minor communication issues that at any point could blow up into big, impossible to solve issues. On the balance I think Flip sucks less than EJ.

EJ made the playoffs with Antonio Daniels, DeShawn Stevenson, and Roger Mason Jr. as his guards. He frequently used Micheal Ruffin or Darius Songalia at C. He made the playoffs four seasons in a row when players like Butler and Arenas, once in a while Jamison and even Haywood were injured.

Flip won 26 games his first season as Wizard coach. He has won less since then. His number one pick is Wall. Eddie's was Kwame at the height of bust status.

Jordan at least maintained mediocrity. Flip has not achieved that. You say EJ sucked. Flip sucks worse and the record speaks for itself. Eddie's problem was he ran of Tom Thibodeau and remained loyal to O'Koren. He was really bad defensively but really, really good offensively. They made the playoffs without Gil, and with AD running EJ's offensive sets.

Both mediocre I can accept, given Flip's track record before Washington and how he won in the CBA. I just feel obligated to respond to every EJ slight with a Flip slight because I think Flip's stuff HAS blown up.

[Zonkerbl]

That's fine, but EJ has never accomplished anything besides what he did with the Wizards. Flip has been much deeper in the playoffs than EJ could ever dream of.

Flip is a bad fit for the wizards, but if you're going to argue actual track record, Flip's is much better.

[Nivek]

EJ made the playoffs with Antonio Daniels, DeShawn Stevenson, and Roger Mason Jr. as his guards. He frequently used Micheal Ruffin or Darius Songalia at C. He made the playoffs four seasons in a row when players like Butler and Arenas, once in a while Jamison and even Haywood were injured.

I know this wasn't directed to me, but I don't think Eddie sucked as a coach -- never did. His issue was defense. He got along well with the players, and he created an atmosphere where the offense thrived. He got good performances that season from Jamison and Haywood, plus career years from Mason and Stevenson. That may have been Blatche's best season too. He deserves credit for that season, and for making the playoffs 4 years in a row. But, it's also on him that he never got the defense to improve despite having a quality defensive center.

Flip won 26 games his first season as Wizard coach. He has won less since then. His number one pick is Wall. Eddie's was Kwame at the height of bust status.

This is a highly selective look at the facts. When Eddie arrived in DC, he inherited Kwame in his 3rd season. He inherited Brendan Haywood and Etan and Larry Hughes. He got Gilbert Arenas in free agency, who had just been named the league's most improved player. And he won 25 games. Yeah, there were injuries and stuff that season -- of course. But still. (And that was Kwame's best season.)

The next year, he got Antawn Jamison in a trade. The offseason after that, Ernie swapped Kwame, who'd quit on the team, for Caron.

Where's Flip's Jamison? Where's his Caron? Where's his Arenas? Shoot, where's his Haywood? Wall's draft slot doesn't mean anything as soon as the games begin -- it's purely about ball. Flip's roster the past two seasons has been unfocused kiddies with potential. Flip hasn't been able to get them focused consistently, and I don't think he's the guy for the long-term rebuild, which is why I think the team should replace him. As you well know, I thought they should have hired Joerger instead of Flip in the first place.

In Flip's first year, he did get Mike Miller and Randy Foye. Miller, of course, got hurt -- managed just 54 games. Foye was supposed to be a third guard in an Arenas-Stevenson-Foye backcourt. But, he had to play a lot more because Arenas got suspended and Stevenson was hurt (knee and back).

But he and Eddie have not had comparable situations. When Eddie had a somewhat similar situation in Washington, he won 25 games. With those same guys you're saying Flip should have won with, Eddie went 1-10. Then Tapscott went 18-53. They didn't get better with Flip, no question. But stuff was different then too -- Flip had a creaky and inefficient Arenas and Caron Butler who was trying to prove it was HIS team, not Gil's. Then gun-gate and all the rest. I don't think it's fair to simply look at records and say: Eddie better than Flip. There are too many differences. Maybe Eddie would have done a little better with this roster. Maybe Flip would have done better with the rosters Eddie had. No way to know.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Flip coached well to beat OKC. When the Wizards have many players play well, their coach uses a deep bench and uses new combinations of players, and when they hang tough win or lose; I am happy for the Wizards and pleased with Flip Saunders.

It would be great if the Wizards just keep doing well. If Flip turned it around, and that meaning the team just stopped failing to compete but instead became consistently a team that played hard I would be all for the man staying coach.

I believe in redemption and not holding grudges. If Vesely and others keep it up that is good news.

[doclinkin]

On the Flipside to Kev's argument...

That's fine, but EJ has never accomplished anything besides what he did with the Wizards. Flip has been much deeper in the playoffs than EJ could ever dream of.

Flip is a bad fit for the wizards, but if you're going to argue actual track record, Flip's is much better.

Except: more of the players that Flip coached have won championships before or after he coached them.

Until Brendan and DeSteve won this past year none of Eddie's players went on to win anything after leaving the team. In fact the team had a reputation of pumping up the stats of players who, when their contract came due, went on to get paid handsomely by other teams, never justifying the cap figure.

One of the things Eddie did well was get the most effort out of players when his own ass was on the line. They would fart around and slack on defense, or give a semblance of effort in the misguided scheme, but as soon as rumblings were heard about firing him, they'd hop in front of the firing line in the media and take the blame themselves, then reel off a handful of improbable wins, beating the World Champs on any given night-- before stumbling once again over the hasbeens and neverweres.

Flip never seems to engender (nor display) that sort of loyalty regarding any player other than his ex-husband Kevin Garnett. In Detroit the toxic attitude he fostered in the locker room got him fired -- and these were players who had been coached by the carping whiny Larry Brown.

Where I am with Flip: He's a smart guy and a competent coach in many ways. I think he's a poor fit for the personnel, and I've distrusted his preferred scheme on offense (which works overhard to force open jumpers in the midrange, and is often shut down in postseason play when teams can scheme against it). I don't know him personally but I don't like the public face he presents as a team leader. and I'm not sure he manages to get the best the talents of his roster. But that's easier for me to say sitting out here in internetland than to do in a lockerroom or in game. Still, in the NBA a huge part of success in coaching comes from getting players to commit to pushing themselves on behalf of the team. The point is to get superlative talents to over_achieve.

That doesn't seem like Flip's best skill.

On his behalf: His zone defense is a useful concept even after he's gone. Teaching Nick to use screens has helped him develop into a much better catch and shoot player. Channeling all plays through John Wall will give the kid a ton of reps to learn what he can and cannot do at the NBA level and force him to remain responsible as a public, even vocal, leader. Even Flip's consistent message on the proper role of an NBA Big Man works to benefit McGee, whether or not he appreciates it.

But ultimately I don't think Flip will remain with the team over the long haul of the re-build. So the question is sooner vs later, and what benefits the team most? Swapping coaches all the time hits a re-set button on the process, except in rare instances where you can swap a Carlisle for Larry a la Detroit. Replace a successful coach with an upgrade. For that to really work we'd have to learn to succeed first. The paradox is, if we start to win, doesn't Flip deserve some credit?

I see signs of progress in the team, better defense chiefly. I like our youngsters but we need an upgrade in skill or talent at 3-4 roster spots. Some of the upgrade may simply be a matter of maturation-- and in that respect I'd hate to 'reward' players for immaturity by shxtcanning the coach. That teaches the wrong lesson.

So. As for Ted. He's in a tough spot, given the overall talent level of the team it looks like a lengthy rebuild unless he gets lucky in draft position. He has to ask himself who will help him speed the process. But economics suggests he play out the year, then clear the slate and bring in new energy. New coach, new GM, new expectations. Until then, we look for signs of progress, instead of re-hashing what has gone before.

[Zonkerbl]

What coach could get these players to focus? Because when they play together like they did yesterday, and against the Raps, they look great. So really the only thing holding them back is their inability to consistently play together as a team.

Flip is a great coach for vets who already know how to play together and just need a smart coach to maximize their ability to win. That's what a lot of the legendary NBA coaches do. He also apparently is a great teacher -- some of our players have improved dramatically under him. But he seems to lack the ability to get the players to buy into the team. EJ had the ability to get players to buy into him, but not into the team.

Who can come in here and teach the players to trust each other and to play together as one unit?

And hey, maybe Flip's that guy. Because when the zards play well, it's his system they are playing. Maybe we see it once every 13 games, then once every seven games, then once every three games, and before you know it we're on a run for the last playoff spot with ten wins in a row.

[Nivek]

On the Flipside to Kev's argument...

In Detroit the toxic attitude he fostered in the locker room got him fired -- and these were players who had been coached by the carping whiny Larry Brown.

Only quibble I have with your post is this. The Detroit locker room was already going toxic under Larry Brown. It's one of the reasons Brown left. And, it's kind of a Brown legacy -- locker rooms have often gone toxic on him because of all that incessant carping and whining he does. (And by the way, wanna see a coach throw his players under the bus, check out some of Brown's post-game pressers.)

Within that Detroit locker room was Ben Wallace and Rasheed Wallace -- both career-long whiny malcontents. And Tayshaun Prince, who's another complainer, but not to the Wallace's level. If there was an All-Complainer Team, Wallace and Wallace would have been annual starters. Tayshaun might have landed in that "also receiving votes" box at the bottom of the page.

In year 2 of Flip's Detroit stint, they brought in Chris Webber while Ben Wallace left. So, they replaced Wallace's defense, rebounding and complaining with Webber's gimpy-ness, decent play when healthy, and complaining. The season after that, Webber was gone but they still missed what Ben Wallace could do, complaining or no. (As an aside -- the last time Jason Maxiell was any good was Flip's final season in Detroit. What happened to that guy?)

Then Dumars fired Flip and went all the way stupid, trading Billups for Iverson, and Detroit went from 59 wins in Flip's final seasons to 39 in their first year without him.

Now, it's fair to point out that Flip couldn't fix a locker room that was going bad. Phil Jackson might have been able to do that. Eddie might have. Flip didn't -- although they sure did a ton of winning while he was there.

Also, to your "players who'd take a bullet for Flip" list (which stopped at KG), add Chauncey Billups at a minimum. Chauncey credits Flip with resurrecting his career in Minnesota -- at least he did with me when I talked to him several years ago when Rick Carlisle was coaching him in Detroit. Dean Garrett is probably pretty happy with Flip as well, though I don't know for sure. And, just guessing, but Cassell seems to like him.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I agree with what you posted, 100%, doc. Eddie always seemed to pull games out when his butt was up against the fire. He also had a hot streak as a coach and coached an all star game.

Washington’s Jordan Named Eastern All-Star Coach

http://www.nba.com/allstar2007/news/jor ... 70201.html

NEW YORK, Feb. 1, 2007 – Washington Wizards head coach Eddie Jordan will coach the Eastern Conference All-Stars for the 2007 NBA All-Star Game, to be played on Sunday, Feb. 18, at Thomas & Mack Center in Las Vegas. ...

... Since falling to 4-9 after a loss to Detroit on November 25, Washington has won 23 of its last 32 games. Also, after falling to 0-8 on the season on the road, the Wizards have since won nine of their last 15 road games.

Ironically, that year Flip was ineligible to coach the East team because he had been All Star coach the season before.

Flip Saunders will coach 2006 East All-Star team

http://www.insidehoops.com/saunders-all ... z1jwA9PSnA

Detroit Pistons head coach Flip Saunders will coach the Eastern Conference All-Stars for the 2006 NBA All-Star Game, to be played on Sunday, Feb. 19 at the Toyota Center in Houston, TX.

Saunders and the Pistons’ (31-5, .861) coaching staff earned the honor to coach the Eastern Conference All-Stars as a result of Detroit’s 117-89 defeat this evening of the Atlanta Hawks and Cleveland’s (20-16, .556) 90-89 loss to the Denver Nuggets, clinching the best possible winning percentage in the Eastern Conference through games of Feb. 5, 2006.

And Flip also coached the West all stars two years earlier.


http://www.nba.com/allstar2004/allstar_ ... 40126.html

NEW YORK, Jan. 26 [2005] –- Minnesota Timberwolves head coach Flip Saunders will coach the Western Conference All-Stars at the 2004 NBA All-Star Game, to be played on Sunday, Feb. 15, at STAPLES Center in Los Angeles.

Saunders clinched the coaching honor with Monday night's 97-95 Timberwolves victory over the Denver Nuggets at the Pepsi Center. Saunders is the first Timberwolves head coach to coach in the NBA All-Star Game.

Saunders was a bad fit for a rebuilding team like the Wizards, but I truly hope things get better from here on out.

If you morph the best of EJ and the best of Flip, you'd get one terrific, Hall of Fame coach.