Official John Wall Appreciation Thread 2.0

[montestewart]

Wall's not too far off that pace now, his assists are up, and he turns the ball over at the same rate, so maybe he's not thinking about TOs too much. What he already did pretty well, he seems to be doing better, but plenty of people thought this team could squeak into the playoffs, barring injuries. 8th seed, 1st round exits, Wall getting 19-10, maybe a little all-star consideration...that's still sounding a lot like a ceiling without that jump shot.

You worried about aggressiveness? If he had a shot that forced a defender in close, he'd have a lot more space after he blew by him. If had a shot, opponents would have to guard 5 on 5 rather than 5 on 4, increasing the odds of an open target for his passes, increasing the utility of a stretch 4. If he had a shot, he could be much more aggressive, knowing that he had more options in half court and on run.

[nate33]

In regards to the team around him...they've obviously done a poor job. It's not bs..it is what it is. Everyone who isn't t acknowledging it also wants Ernie fired so go figure I'm not saying he needs all stars but in my opinion if you had a starting 5 of Wall. Beal, Webster, Ryan Anderson, and Okafor, he could average 19 & 10 and get that team to the playoffs....

I agree that the team around him is poorly constructed. You must have 3 shooters on the floor. Since Wall is not a shooter, a stretch 4 is a necessity. Wall would look so much better with Ryan Anderson. I'm not sure if the team would be better if Nene was traded for Anderson because Nene is a better overall player, but the chemistry would be improved.

What we really need to do is add a stretch 4 to the lineup and bring Nene off the bench. Nene would spend most of his time as the primary option at C or PF for the 2nd unit. and when Wall is in, play the stretch 4. Nene would play C alongside Wall and Stretch Four during crunch time.

Trading Seraphin or Vesely for a guy like Marcus Morris might be a good move.

[B-easy]

Ya'll making excuses for wall again.

The team is much better and wall should be performing better, which he is.

[hands11]

In regards to the team around him...they've obviously done a poor job. It's not bs..it is what it is. Everyone who isn't t acknowledging it also wants Ernie fired so go figure I'm not saying he needs all stars but in my opinion if you had a starting 5 of Wall. Beal, Webster, Ryan Anderson, and Okafor, he could average 19 & 10 and get that team to the playoffs....

I agree that the team around him is poorly constructed. You must have 3 shooters on the floor. Since Wall is not a shooter, a stretch 4 is a necessity. Wall would look so much better with Ryan Anderson. I'm not sure if the team would be better if Nene was traded for Anderson because Nene is a better overall player, but the chemistry would be improved.

What we really need to do is add a stretch 4 to the lineup and bring Nene off the bench. Nene would spend most of his time as the primary option at C or PF for the 2nd unit. and when Wall is in, play the stretch 4. Nene would play C alongside Wall and Stretch Four during crunch time.

Trading Seraphin or Vesely for a guy like Marcus Morris might be a good move.

If you plan on keeping Wall, that's pretty much the direction they need to go in. Part of what is making them look so out of sync lately is exactly that. Nene has been really off with his mid range so you have Nene and Okafor in the paint. Actually, it has been Okafor who has been hitting the mid range more then Nene. And as of last game, you didn't have Beal at SG to help open things up. He had Temple there

Neither Nene or Kevin is a true stretch player but when both can hit from 15, that does help open things up. When you add that to Beal hitting 3s, it works pretty well.

This is why I was suggesting a line up change that put Nene with the second unit. It worked well this year and last year and it helps balance the line ups better.

I would try starting Kevin again. When he is in a grove, he can hit the mid range pretty well and he has as much post game as Nene. Plus, since they aren't making the playoff this year, why not develop him. With Okafors improved play, I think it might work now.

Also they need a shooter at SG with Beal out. That is the double wammy. No Beal to stretch the floor plus Nene can't hit his mid range. As long as Randy sticks with Temple starting at SG, I think we have a problem.

The goal should two balanced line ups with an eye on developing the younger talent to keep or trade. Right now with an eye on Otto, I would get Singleton minutes so you can trade him. That means something like

Wall/Price
Crawford/Temple
Trevor A/Webster/Singleton
Kevin/Ves/Booker
Okafor/Nene

or

Wall/Price/Temple
Webster/Crawford/Temple
Trevor A/Singleton
Kevin/Ves/Booker
Okafor/Nene

or

Wall/Price/Temple
Crawford/Webster/Temple
Trevor A/Singleton
Kevin/Ves/Booker
Okafor/Nene

For me, unless Randy is doing something like this, he isn't doing a very good job. Ves and Singleton should not be rotting away on the bench. Booker is most likely gone. He is a nice player. Interesting. But we need a more skilled version of him at PF. Someone that is a little taller and or bigger and or a better shooter.

The team has some interesting talent but they need to keep upgrading and reloading. They have achieved one thing that is important. This place is now a better environment to bring in younger players. And just because they are young doesn't mean they are immature. Look at Beal. Plumlee would be a nice player to add in the post. He is no immature dummy type young man. You can keep the culture change going even when adding young players now. Just need to add the right ones. That is progress they have made that shouldn't go unnoticed.

If I could rotate out Booker from that front court and add Plumlee, that would be a upgrade. Then I would keep an eye out for a stretch 4 and make a decision on Kevin or Nene. As of now, I would keep Okafor for the long term. He is just to solid and fundamental to give up. As a starter or back up, he is the kind of post player you want on your team.

As for the draft, not sure I wouldn't trade down from Noel to get Otto and Plumlee. Something to keep an eye on.

Wall/Price/Temple
Beal/Crawford/bench 3 pt shooter (CJ McCullum)
Trevor A/Webster/Otto
Nene/Kevin/Ves
Okafor/Plumlee

That would be moving in the right direction and set them up nicely for future trades. They have to figure out a way to turn Booker, Singleton and the two second picks into a first and they can trade down their first for 2 firsts. I would take CJ McCullum as that 3rd guard. That would be a nice reload on the fly.

Three new talented young players on rookie contracts with Okafor in his final year where he can get resigned cheaper. Upgrade from Singleton, Booker and Martin to Plumlee, Otto and McCullem. The team would still be very young.

And you still have vets as the foundation for the younger players.

And plenty of viable assets to trade if you see an opportunity to upgrade. They could pull a Cousins trade with those assets if needed and still have plenty left over.

[nate33]

I agree with much of this.

Starting Temple makes no sense at all. Either start Crawford (who has improved as a spot up shooter) or start Webster (with Ariza starting at SF). Heck, start Price. It's better than starting Temple. Temple is the last guy on the roster who should play alongside Wall.

Starting Seraphin in place of Nene could work too. The logic here is that Seraphin isn't bad as a finisher if he doesn't have to make decisions, so he's better off with a true PG setting him up in his spots. Meanwhile, Nene is a decision maker that you can run the offense through, so it's a little redundant to have him on the court with Wall. Nene should still get more minutes than Seraphin because he's a much better player, but the goal would be to make sure one of Wall or Nene is on the floor at all times, and the time that they play together should minimized.

[jivelikenice]

In regards to the team around him...they've obviously done a poor job. It's not bs..it is what it is. Everyone who isn't t acknowledging it also wants Ernie fired so go figure I'm not saying he needs all stars but in my opinion if you had a starting 5 of Wall. Beal, Webster, Ryan Anderson, and Okafor, he could average 19 & 10 and get that team to the playoffs....

I agree that the team around him is poorly constructed. You must have 3 shooters on the floor. Since Wall is not a shooter, a stretch 4 is a necessity. Wall would look so much better with Ryan Anderson. I'm not sure if the team would be better if Nene was traded for Anderson because Nene is a better overall player, but the chemistry would be improved.

What we really need to do is add a stretch 4 to the lineup and bring Nene off the bench. Nene would spend most of his time as the primary option at C or PF for the 2nd unit. and when Wall is in, play the stretch 4. Nene would play C alongside Wall and Stretch Four during crunch time.

Trading Seraphin or Vesely for a guy like Marcus Morris might be a good move.

Couldn't agree more. Look, if someone wants to take Nene's contract, great. Realistically we won't find a good deal so what do we do with Nene. Nene should be coming off the bench playing 20-25 minutes a game. He likes the offense to flow through him, so its a waste to him him and Wall share the court for too many minutes together. Have him anchor the second unit.
That will also let Beal get involved early in games, which had been a problem at times.

[Nivek]

Wall doesn't necessarily need a shot to become an effective player, but he'd need to get a whole lot smarter about how he plays the game. The notion that he doesn't need to worry about turnovers is just wrong. Some turnovers are inevitable when a guy is attacking a defense, but not at the level he's turning it over. Good players are able to attack a defense AND avoid turnovers.

Back to how Wall can be better without a jumper -- he'll need to start doing a bunch of little things better. Stuff like using screens properly. Reading the defense better on screen/roll so that he can force defenders to make decisions. Stuff like learning how to penetrate even when a defender is playing off him (something Rondo figured out). And he'd need to become a first-rate defender, and probably do more on the boards.

No matter what, Wall has to get better if he wants to be a true franchise cornerstone. The simplest route would appear to be learning to shoot and taking better care of the ball. He's gotta do something to get more from the possessions he's using.

[nate33]

While Beal is out, a rotation like this would work:

Code: Select all

LINEUP
    |      1ST QUARTER       |      2ND QUARTER       |
TIME|2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 |2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 |
PG  |JW------------------AJ--|------JW----------------|
SG  |AJ----------JC----------|------AJ------JC--------|
SF  |MW----------------TA----|----------MW------------|
PF  |KS----------NH----------|----------KS------------|
C   |EO----------------TB----|------EO----------NH----|
MINS: JW38 MW32 EO30 NH28 JC28 KS26 AJ22 TA16 TB12

Seraphin starts but Nene still plays 28 minutes, including all the minutes when Wall is out plus crunch time minutes. At guard, Price takes Beal's spot, with Crawford playing more minutes because Price is not available as a backup. Another option would be to play Webster at SG with Ariza getting more SF minutes. It probably depends on the matchup. If it's a smaller opponent, I'd go with Price with his shooting and ball handling. If it's a bigger opponent, we would need Ariza's size.

[GhostsOfGil]

1 game isn't enough for me to completely sour on the guy...

Yet.

His on/off and per minute stats are still impressive and he has indeed improved his game in a number of areas. With that said, the Philly game was a huge turd. Although his performance was exacerbated by some of you guys, his weaknesses were definitely evident. Some of his turnovers were just mind-blowingly dumb.

[hands11]

Wall doesn't necessarily need a shot to become an effective player, but he'd need to get a whole lot smarter about how he plays the game. The notion that he doesn't need to worry about turnovers is just wrong. Some turnovers are inevitable when a guy is attacking a defense, but not at the level he's turning it over. Good players are able to attack a defense AND avoid turnovers.

Back to how Wall can be better without a jumper -- he'll need to start doing a bunch of little things better. Stuff like using screens properly. Reading the defense better on screen/roll so that he can force defenders to make decisions. Stuff like learning how to penetrate even when a defender is playing off him (something Rondo figured out). And he'd need to become a first-rate defender, and probably do more on the boards.

No matter what, Wall has to get better if he wants to be a true franchise cornerstone. The simplest route would appear to be learning to shoot and taking better care of the ball. He's gotta do something to get more from the possessions he's using.

He just hung Nene out to dry tonight because of this. He used to be even worse at this when he first came to the team. Here is what concerns me about it. It comes down to discipline. Now, I am not a basketball coach but I have to imagine that in teaching someone how to use a screen properly that doesn't get it naturally, it has to be based on reads. Much like you run a football systems. Until Nene plants his outside foot, you dont attack. You just don't do it. Leaving early is not an option. Just key in on that proper read and make your move based on that. The fact that he isn't following this read is about discipline. John is in to big a hurry to much of the time. Basketball is not all about speed. Its about position and working to create it with your teammates.

And you wonder why Kevin hasn't been setting strong screens. He used to run out to set them all the time and they were bone crushing. I think to many of us have forgotten he used to do that. He also used to get called for a ton of fouls. Why ? Because Wall would always attack the screen to early and Kevin would get called for the foul. Just like what happen to Nene tonight.

I can't imagine that creates a lot of trust in your big men when your PG does that. Nene looked pretty pissed.

Rondo got to the hoop without a jumper because he knew how to properly use screens and change of pace.

[tontoz]

Is it just me or does Wall's jumper look better when he doesn't get as much lift? If he shoots off a catch or off the dribble moving slowly, he doesn't jump as high and his shot seems to look better. When he drives hard and pulls up he is in the air longer and his shot looks terrible.

[Illuminaire]

It's not just you, Tontoz. Jumping throws his balance and timing off fairly easily, it seems.

[nate33]

Wall is a 79% free throw shooter. His set shot is much like his free throw form... good. When he is shooting a set shot, he doesn't really need any help from the off hand to steady the ball before the release. It's mostly a one-handed shot (as it should be). Wall's problem is that on his jumper, he involves his off hand far too much because he holds the front of the ball.

[dangermouse]

Need to see that aggressive John come out every game. He managed to get to the rack with ease a few times lightning fast when using a screen. One thing I like about Singleton and even Ves over Seraphin is that they know how to set a god damn solid screen. Seraphin, with his size and shooting touch from mid range, could be a pick & pop nightmare.

[B-easy]

He's shooting 36% form 16 feet to 3-point line. Thats not too bad.

I would like to seen him shoot more coming off a screen.

[Dark Faze]

Beal and Wall clearly both need each other. Their numbers have been bad without the other.

[BruceO]

walls has good strengths, but his weaknesses are weaknesses he's hard from pre draft when ccj and I were the lone voices against drafting him. we both felt turnovers was a concern and half court game. and i remember first few games we'd lose quarters where wall wasn't close to the coach to call a play. those things you guys accepted pre draft along with his strengths. We can get a stretch four but i don't think we should be overcompensating for a pg with multiple team moves when ideally said pg should learn how to be a competent shooter and said pg was a talented no 1 draft pick. People like jrue, kyrie and lillard and even arenas in his day are easier to build around due to a shot. he needs to work on these things and lets not blame his teammates cause same thing happened on a talented UK squad. also i had said pre wall draft that pgs are a dime a dozen. every year within our draft range other than kyrie we've had a shot at getting the best one.

[ST21]

Wall's problem is that on his jumper, he involves his off hand far too much because he holds the front of the ball.

this coupled with the fact that he releases on the way down which is shocking to see out of an NBA player. they teach you in pee wee ball to always release at it's highest point.

[Dat2U]

In regards to BruceO's comments, Is it really overcompensating though to not want to have the worst collection of skill players in the NBA alongside Wall?

Out of the 30 teams in the league is there a starting lineup with less offensive talent than ours?

All I want is Wall to get a fair shot, because frankly he's been put into the perfect position to fail.

[Nivek]

Isn't it funny, though, how weaknesses that are apparent in a player at one level are evident at the next? It's almost like there's some kind of weird relationship between the two.