Political Roundtable - Part VII

[dckingsfan]

You have to excuse Popper...he watches Fox News, and their sole purpose is to scare the living **** out of their viewers every night.

The blacks, mexicans, and gays are destroying this country according to Fox News. In reality, expensive wars and military expenses, unregulated industries, and foreign affairs are what's killing this country.

If the United States didn't meddle in foreign countries, start dumb wars, and actually bothered to regulate our financial institutions properly, this country would be in much better shape. Not a surprise that Fox News tries to deflect and put the spotlight on other issues that don't freakin' matter in the grand scheme. They are paid to peddle their bull by the big corporations and the defense contractors.

Okay, that sounds like a diatribe from the left. Get out of foreign affairs, ignore that we can't afford spending on our social welfare and don't worry that the Ds are owned by the unions and are bankrupting our municipalities - all the problems are coming from the Rs.

Both the Ds and the Rs have it wrong - and yes, we do have serious problems in this country (and abroad) - I may be wrong - but it seems like you are saying everything is rosy - and I sure don't it that way - regardless of Fox and the other for profit media outlets.

Don't get me started on the Democrats...they're a bunch of spineless, ineffective weasels. I despise both sides of the isle equally. My point was that Fox News deflects on the real issues, and their inability to effectively address military spending and regulation bothers the hell out of me. At least the left addresses them (although all they do is talk, never do). People like O'Reilly do address the issues, but because he panders so much, he talks about everything but.

Unions, IMO, are a necessary evil. I'd rather have the unions keeping these large corporations in check as opposed to those same companies screwing over the hourly workers and the people who are basically the engine of this country. Of course, what started out as a noble idea ended up being a bunch backdoor handshakes and cash grabs.

Got it on Fox News - I read it as "everything is fine".

Private Unions would be fine... but all we have now are public unions controlling local votes - very corrupt IMO, and I think they should go.

[popper]

You have to excuse Popper...he watches Fox News, and their sole purpose is to scare the living **** out of their viewers every night.

The blacks, mexicans, and gays are destroying this country according to Fox News. In reality, expensive wars and military expenses, unregulated industries, and foreign affairs are what's killing this country.

If the United States didn't meddle in foreign countries, start dumb wars, and actually bothered to regulate our financial institutions properly, this country would be in much better shape. Not a surprise that Fox News tries to deflect and put the spotlight on other issues that don't freakin' matter in the grand scheme. They are paid to peddle their bull by the big corporations and the defense contractors.

I think you know that my post had nothing to do with blacks, Mexicans, Gays or Fox news. It's a good straw man though if you can find someone gullible enough to believe it.

[fishercob]

Where my economists at?

Talk to me.

In World's Best-Run Economy, House Prices Keep Falling -- Because That's What House Prices Are Supposed To Do

[TGW]

You have to excuse Popper...he watches Fox News, and their sole purpose is to scare the living **** out of their viewers every night.

The blacks, mexicans, and gays are destroying this country according to Fox News. In reality, expensive wars and military expenses, unregulated industries, and foreign affairs are what's killing this country.

If the United States didn't meddle in foreign countries, start dumb wars, and actually bothered to regulate our financial institutions properly, this country would be in much better shape. Not a surprise that Fox News tries to deflect and put the spotlight on other issues that don't freakin' matter in the grand scheme. They are paid to peddle their bull by the big corporations and the defense contractors.

I think you know that my post had nothing to do with blacks, Mexicans, Gays or Fox news. It's a good straw man though if you can find someone gullible enough to believe it.

I just made the logical connection Popper. You're a conservative who believes the country is on the verge of destruction, which pretty much coincides with Fox News' right-wing narrative.

And you're post absolutely had something to do with Mexicans. You just complained about border patrol...unless you're afraid of illegal Canadians stealing your strawberry-picking jobs, I think it would be safe to say you were referring to mexicans. And the reason gun sales have gone up is because Fox News and conservative outlets scared the gunowners by claiming that Obama was going to take their guns...had nothing to do with safety.

[dobrojim]

I'm not saying they should do this (but maybe). Surprised that no one will
even talk about it though.

we have all these 'illegal' aliens living and working in this country
(I put illegal in quotes because I like the thinking of Maria Hinojosa on the subject)
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/04/20/1084905/-No-Human-Being-is-Illegal

we have a demographic problem with 'real' Americans (like me) getting older and closer to retirement
which will decrease the number of people paying into SocSec. Seems like legalizing more of our workforce
would help the demographic issue.

Of course there is always the problem that they don't vote the
'right' way so a consensus on legalizing them would be difficult at best.

[popper]

You have to excuse Popper...he watches Fox News, and their sole purpose is to scare the living **** out of their viewers every night.

The blacks, mexicans, and gays are destroying this country according to Fox News. In reality, expensive wars and military expenses, unregulated industries, and foreign affairs are what's killing this country.

If the United States didn't meddle in foreign countries, start dumb wars, and actually bothered to regulate our financial institutions properly, this country would be in much better shape. Not a surprise that Fox News tries to deflect and put the spotlight on other issues that don't freakin' matter in the grand scheme. They are paid to peddle their bull by the big corporations and the defense contractors.

I think you know that my post had nothing to do with blacks, Mexicans, Gays or Fox news. It's a good straw man though if you can find someone gullible enough to believe it.

I just made the logical connection Popper. You're a conservative who believes the country is on the verge of destruction, which pretty much coincides with Fox News' right-wing narrative.

And you're post absolutely had something to do with Mexicans. You just complained about border patrol...unless you're afraid of illegal Canadians stealing your strawberry-picking jobs, I think it would be safe to say you were referring to mexicans. And the reason gun sales have gone up is because Fox News and conservative outlets scared the gunowners by claiming that Obama was going to take their guns...had nothing to do with safety.

I'm a conservative that believes in math. Obama stated the obvious before he was first elected. Entitlements need immediate attention because they are unsustainable. Simpson- Bowles provided one option to address our predicament. I don't follow what conservatism or Fox News has to do with any of that. It's simple math.

With regard to our borders, it's irresponsible for our govt. to allow people (of any nationality) to enter illegally. It's also irresponsible, to allow them to stay once they come in contact with authorities. To make matters worse, I believe there are 90 million Americans that are out of the workforce right now. If you are ok with open borders then that's your prerogative. I'm not.

Gun sales are up for a variety of reasons. In some cases, I think people rightly fear their govt. In others, they fear a breakdown in society caused by a turning-away from moral traditions, or perhaps from potential economic stagnation and crisis. I also think, as you mention, many gun owners believe that if the left had their druthers they would outlaw most, if not all guns. My two cents.

[nate33]

I assume Nate is pulling his data from the FBI database--the same FBI database that is WILDLY inaccurate and shouldn't be used in any way, shape, or form to make a policy decision for one side or another.

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/v4l2pe/a-shot-in-the-dark

It's not my data. That was keynote's post quoted from the Washington Post. I agree wholeheartedly that we have extremely poor data on police shootings.

To clarify: there are two sets of data: the WaPo report I shared above, and the data Nate is citing re: demographics of people who commit violent crimes. The latter didn't come from the WaPo report (which doesn't use the criteria "dangerous").

Sorry. Didn't mean to pull you into this, keynote. I assumed based on the video that TGW posted that his issue with the data was on the police shootings data, which is indeed very incomplete. The overall data on violent crime is much more complete and comes from multiple years of study from different angles (victim rates, incarceration rates, crime rate correlation to population demographics, etc.) using vast sample sizes.

[nate33]

Where my economists at?

Talk to me.

In World's Best-Run Economy, House Prices Keep Falling -- Because That's What House Prices Are Supposed To Do

I clicked the link just to see what was the world's best run economy. Their answer, Germany, is probably a pretty good one (though one could make an argument for Singapore).

[fishercob]

Where my economists at?

Talk to me.

In World's Best-Run Economy, House Prices Keep Falling -- Because That's What House Prices Are Supposed To Do

I clicked the link just to see what was the world's best run economy. Their answer, Germany, is probably a pretty good one (though one could make an argument for Singapore).

Any thoughts on how they manipulate housing prices?

[TGW]

Where my economists at?

Talk to me.

In World's Best-Run Economy, House Prices Keep Falling -- Because That's What House Prices Are Supposed To Do

I clicked the link just to see what was the world's best run economy. Their answer, Germany, is probably a pretty good one (though one could make an argument for Singapore).

Do you agree that the regulations imposed by the German gov't on the housing market, which stops the creation of bubbles, are effective?

[nate33]

Where my economists at?

Talk to me.

In World's Best-Run Economy, House Prices Keep Falling -- Because That's What House Prices Are Supposed To Do

I clicked the link just to see what was the world's best run economy. Their answer, Germany, is probably a pretty good one (though one could make an argument for Singapore).

Do you agree that the regulations imposed by the German gov't on the housing market, which stops the creation of bubbles, are effective?

It would appear that the regulations imposed by the German government work better than the regulations imposed by the U.S. government. But I definitely wouldn't characterize it as German high regulation working better than U.S. low regulation. The way I see it one of the reasons the German market is more effective is because the governments don't subsidize the banks with a Fannie Mae equivalent, and they force owners to put 20% down. We used to do that and we had a more stable housing market as well. Also, the Germans don't use a government subsidy (the tax deduction of mortgage insurance) to produce an artificial demand.

The way I see, the Germans, in many ways are doing LESS to regulate and subsidize the housing industry than the Americans do.

[fishercob]

I clicked the link just to see what was the world's best run economy. Their answer, Germany, is probably a pretty good one (though one could make an argument for Singapore).

Do you agree that the regulations imposed by the German gov't on the housing market, which stops the creation of bubbles, are effective?

It would appear that the regulations imposed by the German government work better than the regulations imposed by the U.S. government. But I definitely wouldn't characterize it as German high regulation working better than U.S. low regulation. The way I see it one of the reasons the German market is more effective is because the governments don't subsidize the banks with a Fannie Mae equivalent, and they force owners to put 20% down. We used to do that and we had a more stable housing market as well. Also, the Germans don't use a government subsidy (the tax deduction of mortgage insurance) to produce an artificial demand.

The way I see, the Germans, in many ways are doing LESS to regulate and subsidize the housing industry than the Americans do.

Interesting.

I have often thought that the mortgage interest deduction made no sense and caused people to do things they otherwise wouldn't. Our tax code is way too complicated.

[Ruzious]

The thing about the mortgage interest deduction - If we ever went to a flat tax system - within a year, there would be overwhelming clamor to put in an interest deduction... and soon there would be more exceptions and more exceptions - and within a few years, we'd have a bigger mess than we have now and realize - Oh, there was a reason this and that was put into the tax code - to stop people from taking advantage of this loophole and that one. History would repeat itself except it would patched up worse version of what we used to have - mainly because the people who wrote the old stuff mostly knew what they were doing - and the younger folks don't have the knowledge because they got where they are by tearing apart the old system - rather than working with it and understanding it. Unfortunately, there's no realistic perfect system that's both equitable and easy to understand. There's always going to be that struggle.

[nate33]

The thing about the mortgage interest deduction - If we ever went to a flat tax system - within a year, there would be overwhelming clamor to put in an interest deduction... and soon there would be more exceptions and more exceptions - and within a few years, we'd have a bigger mess than we have now and realize - Oh, there was a reason this and that was put into the tax code - to stop people from taking advantage of this loophole and that one. History would repeat itself except it would patched up worse version of what we used to have - mainly because the people who wrote the old stuff mostly knew what they were doing - and the younger folks don't have the knowledge because they got where they are by tearing apart the old system - rather than working with it and understanding it. Unfortunately, there's no realistic perfect system that's both equitable and easy to understand. There's always going to be that struggle.

Agreed. Phasing out the mortgage deduction would be a monumental task.

[dckingsfan]

I think it funny that the same people that complain about business welfare are the same ones that want to keep the loopholes in place. It isn't about being fair - it is about using the deductions for political purposes.

One of the main reasons healthcare is such a mess is the healthcare deduction.

[penbeast0]

The thing about the mortgage interest deduction - If we ever went to a flat tax system - within a year, there would be overwhelming clamor to put in an interest deduction... and soon there would be more exceptions and more exceptions - and within a few years, we'd have a bigger mess than we have now and realize - Oh, there was a reason this and that was put into the tax code - to stop people from taking advantage of this loophole and that one. History would repeat itself except it would patched up worse version of what we used to have - mainly because the people who wrote the old stuff mostly knew what they were doing - and the younger folks don't have the knowledge because they got where they are by tearing apart the old system - rather than working with it and understanding it. Unfortunately, there's no realistic perfect system that's both equitable and easy to understand. There's always going to be that struggle.

I agree that there would be an immediate clamor to start putting in loopholes, that's unfortunately what our Congressmen are selling when they look for campaign contributions -- not a fair system with no thumbs on the scale, but a thumb on the scale for everyone (or at least everyone that contributes to campaigns or votes in large numbers).

I disagree that our current legislature is any less knowledgable about loopholes and tax credits, the massive increase in specialized Congressional/Committee staff on the hill provides more knowledge than most of the crafters of the tax loopholes had when they were written although there is an argument that we have chopped off some of the rough edges over years of experimentation.

But, while simplifying the tax code (ideally down to a flat tax with personal deductions) would probably not stay simple, it's like pruning a tree. IT would get rid of a lot of the excess deadwood and, for a while, put new vigor into our economic system until the government has grown it's full thorny tangle back to the point where the pressure to cut it back again builds up.

[dobrojim]

simplified tax system? Fine. I think everyone outside of the lawyer/accountants in that industry are in favor of that.
Flatter tax system ie more regressive? I don't think that would be helpful to our long term economy.
As always, the devil is in the details and those details always get written by those who write the checks
to the people writing the legislation.

[Ruzious]

The thing about the mortgage interest deduction - If we ever went to a flat tax system - within a year, there would be overwhelming clamor to put in an interest deduction... and soon there would be more exceptions and more exceptions - and within a few years, we'd have a bigger mess than we have now and realize - Oh, there was a reason this and that was put into the tax code - to stop people from taking advantage of this loophole and that one. History would repeat itself except it would patched up worse version of what we used to have - mainly because the people who wrote the old stuff mostly knew what they were doing - and the younger folks don't have the knowledge because they got where they are by tearing apart the old system - rather than working with it and understanding it. Unfortunately, there's no realistic perfect system that's both equitable and easy to understand. There's always going to be that struggle.

I agree that there would be an immediate clamor to start putting in loopholes, that's unfortunately what our Congressmen are selling when they look for campaign contributions -- not a fair system with no thumbs on the scale, but a thumb on the scale for everyone (or at least everyone that contributes to campaigns or votes in large numbers).

I disagree that our current legislature is any less knowledgable about loopholes and tax credits, the massive increase in specialized Congressional/Committee staff on the hill provides more knowledge than most of the crafters of the tax loopholes had when they were written although there is an argument that we have chopped off some of the rough edges over years of experimentation.

But, while simplifying the tax code (ideally down to a flat tax with personal deductions) would probably not stay simple, it's like pruning a tree. IT would get rid of a lot of the excess deadwood and, for a while, put new vigor into our economic system until the government has grown it's full thorny tangle back to the point where the pressure to cut it back again builds up.

I didn't mean the current legislators - I meant the ones that would be in power when they would be starting with a blank slate and then trying to add deductions and credits for their hometown voters. But fwiw, speaking as a tax guy whose father worked for the Joint Tax Committee, there are no Wilbur Mills' or even Dan Rostenskowski's' (sp?) anymore. Too bad those guys had issues. They not only understood the code, they understood the importance of writing legislation so that it's both clear to a layman and written accurately - so that it accomplishes the intention of Congress.

Btw, a flat tax and deductions of any kind are 2 mutually exclusive terms, imo.

[hands11]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikMKJwbMQ_M[/youtube]

[dckingsfan]

BTW, for those that defend the minimum wage - it was cited as the #1 reason for the fiscal mess that Puerto Rico is in - that and it's pension problems...