The Amazingly Sucky Flip Saunders Thread

[Wizards2Lottery]

Everytime McGee gets in the game, the energy level and the tempo of the team sky rockets. He does not suck, the coach is just scared that he will cause more harm than good short term while ignoring that his long term development will be a big boost to this team in the future.

Flip is a short sighted coach just the way EFJ was. That is why it's time to scratch everything and start over with a long term philosophy.

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

Everytime McGee gets in the game, the energy level and the tempo of the team sky rockets. He does not suck, the coach is just scared that he will cause more harm than good short term while ignoring that his long term development will be a big boost to this team in the future.

Flip is a short sighted coach just the way EFJ was. That is why it's time to scratch everything and start over with a long term philosophy.

Good stuff g0a. That was the most maddening thing about last year. The season was over early yet we saw way more of our known commodities than our young guns. If mcg, blatche and n1 had been playing 40 minutes a game we'd atleast know what we had right now. Last season was an opportunity that netted us virtually nothing. This season could be headed that way. Every franchise can absorb a year like this now and again...some tank as an art form. We even f up tanking. This two year stretch could leave the cupboard mighty bare.

[closg00]

Aside from the Knicks not-playing Hill, the Wizards are the only team that basically does not play their 1st-round draft pick. Last night, the Cavs had used their entire roster before the half while energy players McGee and McGuire sat on the bench until the game was well out-of-hand. Orberto had another night with 0 rebounds, shot-attempts, or blocks.

Flip is showing the same type of lack of imagination with respect to the roster that EJ displayed while he was here. Very disappointing.

[TheSecretWeapon]

Everytime McGee gets in the game, the energy level and the tempo of the team sky rockets. He does not suck, the coach is just scared that he will cause more harm than good short term while ignoring that his long term development will be a big boost to this team in the future.

Flip is a short sighted coach just the way EFJ was. That is why it's time to scratch everything and start over with a long term philosophy.

And nearly every time he gets in the game, the scoreboard goes in the wrong direction for the Wizards. Their offense gets a little better, but the defense falls apart and the rebounding at both ends suffers. "Energy" and "tempo" are nice, but I suspect Flip is looking for some positive TEAM results when McGee plays. The on/off data from this season is pretty similar to what it was last season for McGee. He looks good at times on the court, but the defense gets worse and the team gets outscored when he plays. He needs to translate "looking good" into something positive for the team.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Every time he comes in its at C. Last game Ilgauskas abused him.

McGee should be used at PF with Haywood. Flip's never tried that because IMO he's too conservative and too hard on young players. Same reason he has more faith in Stevenson than Young.

I couldn't disagree more with you TSW on McGee. His PER was 17 last season. Chris Paul compared his athleticism to Dwight Howard's. McGee competed evenly over the summer against Lopez and Oden, drawing positive reviews from impartial coaching--Larry Brown IIRC. In summer league he led the Vegas league in blocks, and also scored efficiently. In NBA preseason for the Wizards, McGee's points, rebounds, blocks, and low fouls were all much better than Oberto's. Javale was very effective in preseason. Yet, he's a flop?

Surely, McGee doesn't thrive in high structure and he is a porous defender-- the role Flip has designated for him. Just like with Butler, Flip has come in and asked guys to perform outside of their comfort zone. Not good coaching IMO.

I think the whole problem is in what Javale's asked to do--and the resultant lack of minutes he gets to do them in. McGee IMO should come in early at PF for BLATCHE when the other starters are still on the court. It took Flip FOREVER to finally try Jamison at SF. I suggested that years ago, to be told it wouldn't work. But when Flip finally tries it, they get a win. Too bad Gil gets suspended or Caron at SG and Jamison at SF might have had a chance. Javale as the third or even fourth C is Flip's paradigm. I think Saunders is unimaginative and not that good a coach this season.

Jamison at SF is what has been needed for a long time to give all of Blatche, McGee, and Oberto more minutes! Any or all can play with Haywood, but IT IS MCGEE WHO CAN FINISH INSIDE. I don't know why that's not more obvious.

McGee can score a ton of points given an opportunity. Flip won't see this. I think wtih Haywood in with him his defense would be fine. Likewise, with Jamison, McGee, and Blatche or Haywood I think the frontcourt won't be outscored.

[LyricalRico]

^ We're still on this "McGee at PF" fallacy? Come on, folks - Larry Nance ain't waking through that door wearing a McGee jersey. Equating McGee with somebody of that caliber is like calling Harold Miner "Baby Jordan". It's ridiculous.

And I can't believe you're putting McGee's bad defense on Flip, as if Flip is asking him to something that no other coach would. Gimme a break. McGee is nothing more than an athletic pipe dream that will disappoint people for years to come. Book it. If we can get somebody like James Harden for McGee+Young, we need to do it ASAP.

[nate33]

I agree with Rico's general assessment, though I'm more optimistic about McGee's future.

Right now, McGee is an athletic freak who can't help this team because he simply does not understand team defense. He's not a lost cause though. He has all the physical tools, he has a motor, and he seems like a smart enough guy off the court. He just needs to work real hard in the gym and in the film room until he can put on some weight and figure out the game of basketball. I think the desire to work on the mental aspects of the game will come with maturity. He's about due for a Blatche-like revelation that he's not going to succeed in the NBA unless he puts in the work.

I would trade him for a good young player like Harden, but I wouldn't just give McGee away in frustration.

[Orakpophobia]

^ We're still on this "McGee at PF" fallacy? Come on, folks - Larry Nance ain't waking through that door wearing a McGee jersey. Equating McGee with somebody of that caliber is like calling Harold Miner "Baby Jordan". It's ridiculous.

And I can't believe you're putting McGee's bad defense on Flip, as if Flip is asking him to something that no other coach would. Gimme a break. McGee is nothing more than an athletic pipe dream that will disappoint people for years to come. Book it. If we can get somebody like James Harden for McGee+Young, we need to do it ASAP.

I must concur. To me, JMG's value to the Wiz is best as trade bait. I'd make that deal for Harden in a heartbeat.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

^ We're still on this "McGee at PF" fallacy? Come on, folks - Larry Nance ain't waking through that door wearing a McGee jersey. Equating McGee with somebody of that caliber is like calling Harold Miner "Baby Jordan". It's ridiculous.

And I can't believe you're putting McGee's bad defense on Flip, as if Flip is asking him to something that no other coach would. Gimme a break. McGee is nothing more than an athletic pipe dream that will disappoint people for years to come. Book it. If we can get somebody like James Harden for McGee+Young, we need to do it ASAP.

The guy in your avatar drafted him...after he already had Blatche and Pecherov on the roster.

I trust my track record on talent. I strongly feel Javale can play PF and I am pretty sure you, nate, and anybody else who thinks he can't are wrong. Nobody said he's the next Larry Nance, but that is exactly who he reminds me of. Flip should be playing McGee 10-15 minutes, at least, every game. It's taken Andray Blatche four years as a pro to get to where he is today. McGee in three years MIGHT BE much better than Blatche.

I have posted about guys like Trevor Ariza only to be told they're no good. Years ago. Same with Sessions.

One thing I can count on is folks doubting me ...

[closg00]

Given the very very scant minutes that McGee has played and the time that it normally takes to develop a big, I don't understand why so-many of you have dismissed McGee so quickly. Bynum has/had Jabbar tutoring him along with playing time, who does JaVale have?

McGee needs to be set-up to succeed, not set-up to fail. Indeed, play the guy at PF alongside Wood, play him when we play athletic teams, play him instead of O-Man but play the guy.
Play him & coach him and we succeed.

[LyricalRico]

The guy in your avatar drafted him...after he already had Blatche and Pecherov on the roster.

Hey, I don't blame him for taking a flyer on a 7-foot athletic freak. I would want my GM to do that with a mid-late first round pick. But don't make him out to be something that he's not. If the guy doesn't get it, fine - move him for somebody that does.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

^ We're still on this "McGee at PF" fallacy? Come on, folks - Larry Nance ain't waking through that door wearing a McGee jersey. Equating McGee with somebody of that caliber is like calling Harold Miner "Baby Jordan". It's ridiculous.

And I can't believe you're putting McGee's bad defense on Flip, as if Flip is asking him to something that no other coach would. Gimme a break. McGee is nothing more than an athletic pipe dream that will disappoint people for years to come. Book it. If we can get somebody like James Harden for McGee+Young, we need to do it ASAP.

I must concur. To me, JMG's value to the Wiz is best as trade bait. I'd make that deal for Harden in a heartbeat.

Harden was the #3 pick in this season's draft. OF COURSE you trade him for a #18 pick the season before who's getting 0 minutes for a coach many love to defend.

Who said a damned thing about Harden or Nance but Rico? Bottom line is Ernie signed both Gil and Crittenton ... and McGee. I'm just proposing a way to get him more minutes. Not saying he's a savior.

But LR, I'm going to look at your posts differently from now on.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

The guy in your avatar drafted him...after he already had Blatche and Pecherov on the roster.

Hey, I don't blame him for taking a flyer on a 7-foot athletic freak. I would want my GM to do that with a mid-late first round pick. But don't make him out to be something that he's not. If the guy doesn't get it, fine - move him for somebody that does.

We both agree McGee should be moved.

[LyricalRico]

But LR, I'm going to look at your posts differently from now on.

So I'm not on the McGee bandwagon and now I'm on the doghouse? Hilarious, bro.

[DaRealHibachi]

McGee is overrated...

Yeah, I said it...

[closg00]

The guy in your avatar drafted him...after he already had Blatche and Pecherov on the roster.

Hey, I don't blame him for taking a flyer on a 7-foot athletic freak. I would want my GM to do that with a mid-late first round pick. But don't make him out to be something that he's not. If the guy doesn't get it, fine - move him for somebody that does.

Why is it that you expect him to "get it" w/o the benefit of playing-time so-that he can "get it" What would be your plan for having him get there?

McGee came after playing 2 years of college ball. McGee WILL be a stud-player in this league and some of you are going to have to eat your words.

[MJG]

It's worth remembering that McGee was taken as a long-term project, and he's only been here for 1.5 seasons. I think the problem was that he played too well those first couple of weeks of his career, and he made everyone forget that it was supposed to take years before we'd possibly get return on our investment. Really, I think both sides - those that want to give him major minutes as well as those that think he'll never amount to much - are being too impatient.

[closg00]

It's worth remembering that McGee was taken as a long-term project, and he's only been here for 1.5 seasons. I think the problem was that he played too well those first couple of weeks of his career, and he made everyone forget that it was supposed to take years before we'd possibly get return on our investment. Really, I think both sides - those that want to give him major minutes as well as those that think he'll never amount to much - are being too impatient.

No-one here is advocating major minutes. How about anything but a string of DNP's or garbage-time? 10 to-15 minutes a night would be fine. McGee could be our staring Center next year so why not plan accordingly?

[TheSecretWeapon]

I couldn't disagree more with you TSW on McGee. His PER was 17 last season. Chris Paul compared his athleticism to Dwight Howard's. McGee competed evenly over the summer against Lopez and Oden, drawing positive reviews from impartial coaching--Larry Brown IIRC. In summer league he led the Vegas league in blocks, and also scored efficiently. In NBA preseason for the Wizards, McGee's points, rebounds, blocks, and low fouls were all much better than Oberto's. Javale was very effective in preseason. Yet, he's a flop?

CCJ: I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. My opinion of McGee is actually pretty high -- at least in terms of his physical abilities. I think the kid has LOADS of potential. That said, the fact remains that the team gets significantly worse when he's on the floor.

I think it's worth trying him at PF with Haywood on the floor. I usually prefer a PF (a "stretch 4" as they're called these days) who can shoot the ball (McGee's jumper is inaccurate), but I think it's worth a try.

With Gil out, I think whatever hope they had of entering a competitive part of the season is rapidly disappearing. When it's gone, I hope they'll put McGee out there for significant minutes to see if he's someone who needs game time to develop.

[Ruzious]

Jav had some sort of knee problem recently - which might explain why he's played so little. I'd expect and hope that he gets a lot more PT for the rest of the season.