Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space?

[LyricalRico]

Rico will be chewing on his emoticons.

So while we may all be on the same page in regards to the Wizards' success, there is clearly some folks here who have a bone to pick with the way the squad has been assembled.

*Gasp*

You mean that everyone here doesn't agree all the time? I want to show you something...this is my shocked face:

[willbcocks]

A bunch of crap

Ted says: "We have to earn people’s confidence. We have to earn their excitement and passion. We get it."

Induveca paraphrases: People who want to trade Gilbert need to stop complaining (right now, before we've won a single game, not waiting until after the team has earned anything).


Could you possibly butcher Ted's intent, and the attitude of half the posters on here, any more?

Ted's basically saying that we're going for a long term rebuild, that the next few years might be hard, but that there's a plan and we will be better for it in the long run.

This is precisely what everyone on this board, whether they want to trade Gilbert or not, wants. We just think the best way of doing that is without Gil. You think the opposite. And it's not really clear what Ted thinks (I read his public statements as saying: there is no market for Gil, and we're not buying him out, so we're going to make the best of things and start afresh).

I'll continue to advocate trading Gil AND enjoy the next season as much as anyone else, thanks,

[AceDegenerate]

I like how willbcocks and Rico do such a job of calling people out on paraphrasing and only using certain points to help their arguments. While they BOTH go right ahead and do the same. This is OBVIOUSLY a D.C. forum huh? Whole lot of selective quoting, and self-serving responses.

Neither of you will directly respond to what anyone says, simply quote a couple words and respond to that.

I'm here rooting for the team and the players on the squad, you're here advocating that you have the answers that will eventually lead THE WASHINGTON WIZARDS TO THE NBA CHAMPIONSHIP.

Now you guys may feel all high & mighty on this forum, but take ANY of this ridiculous banter out into the real world and I'm the one who is going to look the most logical of you all. The herd-mind here is pathetic. You have no interest in debate or discussion, you have an interest in patting eachother on the backs. I've been here for years and seen it all, the ones who have been here with me have never changed. Many posters have come and gone from this forum cause it's the same old garbage every day. No other forum on RealGM is as divided as this one.

You all better either ignore me, or simply avoid cheering on Gilbert period, I promise I will not ever let you hear the end of it MR. Rico and Willbcocks especially. I'm waiting for either of you to say a single positive line about Gilbert and it will go in my signature.

[AceDegenerate]

Rico will be chewing on his emoticons.

So while we may all be on the same page in regards to the Wizards' success, there is clearly some folks here who have a bone to pick with the way the squad has been assembled.

*Gasp*

You mean that everyone here doesn't agree all the time? I want to show you something...this is my shocked face:

I find it interesting that you quote me saying CLEARLY everyone doesn't agree all the time, then you found the need to repeat it. Reading comprehension much?

[Ruzious]

I'm done responding to folks to like to call me out and run away when I respond to them.

I've said before and I'll say it again, you can use your fancy ignore feature if you don't like what I have to say.

I'd respond, but I don't know what to say. I honestly don't understand your complaints. Sorry.

[Ruzious]

<<It is good to be reserved.

We have to earn people’s confidence. We have to earn their excitement and passion. We get it.

We have to get results. We have to win. We have to have a crisply articulated plan and we have to stick with it.

It is good to be a cynic. It is easy to be a cynic even though I am an evangelist for being in the business of happiness, as you know. Know many happy and successful cynics?

It is good to hold us accountable.

All I ask in return is that if we do improve - win and start to see a brighter day - that we get acknowledged in a positive light and our franchise gets treated with respect. Our players, too. If we win - the fans will come - and in a big way.

That seems like a fair set of asks and transactions as to value exchange>>

Great Post from Leonsis. Guy never ceases to amaze me, he once again stated the "we have a plan, we have to keep it" for the sake of fans. Calls out cynics, and asks for some respect when we do indeed win.

I think it's time for all of us here to accept we're rolling with what we have this season. Time to move this discussion away from these pointless hypothetical armchair GM trades posted and move into a discussion about ideas for adjustments Saunders can make to minimize flaws, and/or what players need to improve.

Arenas isn't going to be traded, Leonsis has said it 1000 times. Your opinions may count next offseason if he is atrocious and costs us a ton of games, but for now the negativity is doing nothing but hurting the franchise which is in desperate need of some respect and positivity.

We have #1 pick in John Wall, a guy capable of putting up 50 EFFICIENT points on a given night in Arenas, an up and coming double double monster in Blatche, the most athletic 7 footer in the league in McGee and a solid prospect in Seraphin, and a consistent Hinrich and sometimes explosive Young coming off the bench to spell Arenas or Wall.

We're in pretty good shape. Stop complaining about who we have, and how the grass is greener on the other side. I've been accustomed to losing and complaining under the Pollin ownership, because the franchise was run very poorly. Things have changed......Leonsis will have as much impact as Cuban had in Dallas. Don't forget in the late 80s through the mid 90s Dallas was absolutely horrific. New ownership changed all of that.

Between the "trade Arenas now for nothing! we won't win anyways" to the "we have no big man, this is all so pointless! TANK!" arguments on here, you guys have quit on this squad before it even has a chance to perform under a brand new regime with the most talented player to come into the NBA since LeBron James. Stop whining, and realize we are for the first time in decades in a place where drastic improvement isn't just a possibility, it's a probability......mostly due to Leonsis approach to doing business. Failure just isn't in the guys vocabulary.....he has a very logical/sound plan for success, get on board. We owe him a chance to succeed.

While I'm not a tanking proponent for this season, let's be honest about Ted's philosophies. After the Jagr fiasco years, he did... intentionally... tank... for a couple of years. That's because his philosophy isn't just "to win"; it's to put yourself in position "to win championships".

[Wizards2Lottery]

I don't think it was intentional tanking. The teams were just bad which is what you would expect when you jettison the entire roster and fill it with young players and rookies. If they were to intentionally tank, no way they go on that run they did in 2007. At one time we were 15th in the conference, but ended up finishing 3rd. Could have tanked that year and gotten a high ranked prospect, 2008 NHL draft was the most talent stacked one in a long long time. I don't think building around youth is intentional tanking.

[willbcocks]

I don't think it was intentional tanking. The teams were just bad which is what you would expect when you jettison the entire roster and fill it with young players and rookies. If they were to intentionally tank, no way they go on that run they did in 2007. At one time we were 15th in the conference, but ended up finishing 3rd. Could have tanked that year and gotten a high ranked prospect, 2008 NHL draft was the most talent stacked one in a long long time. I don't think building around youth is intentional tanking.

It was intentional tanking--at the GM level. You assemble players, not in an attempt to win now, but to develop them, and your team, to win later.

Then there is intentional tanking at the coaching level. This would involve taking players out who were playing well, assigning minutes unfairly, etc.

I'm not sure how often the coach level tanking actually happens -- coaches don't want to do it because it might hurt their wallet/reputation, and organizations shouldn't want to do it because it breeds a losing culture. I think this should only happen in a very poor organization.

GM level tanking, however, is a very valid organizational strategy given the rules and long-term goals they are working with. I think gm level tanking gets a bad reputation because it is associated with coach level tanking. In reality, you can tank at the GM level and pay a coach and players to try to win every game for you.

[doclinkin]

Now you guys may feel all high & mighty on this forum, but take ANY of this ridiculous banter out into the real world and I'm the one who is going to look the most logical of you all. The herd-mind here is pathetic. You have no interest in debate or discussion, you have an interest in patting eachother on the backs. I've been here for years and seen it all, the ones who have been here with me have never changed. Many posters have come and gone from this forum cause it's the same old garbage every day. No other forum on RealGM is as divided as this one.

Uh. The board has a herd mentality, but is more divided than any other board? How's that work now?

I dunno that there's any monolithic concept that everybody on this board agrees with. Win now, tank now. Keep Gil, trade Gil. Try for a championship even if it means losing, shut up and enjoy the wins make the best of what you have. Hell some posters don't even agree with themselves from sentence to sentence (see quote above). And poster's opinions change. Me induveca and barelyawake go way back to the ESPN boards, back when Barely was the optimist repping Steve Blake & Kwame, and Indu (forget the screen name, something dominican something) was the pessimist, hating on everything, picking pointless fights and being entertainingly salty. Now BA thinks we're doomed unless we lose properly and Indu is giddy willing to accept whatever comes and win now because Teddy is holding our collective hand. Goes around comes around.

I think some folks argue on here hoping to be proven wrong, or to pick up counter-arguments to use against naysayers elsewhere. Some are so addicted to doom and gloom they don't trust the slightest brightside opinion, others take the contrarian view out of habit even if that means looking at things with cockeyed optimism, trying to turn shxt into fertilizer.

It wouldn't be interesting if we all agreed, one reason why I don't mind a poster being an ass in defense of their favorite player. But I do think some Wiz fans get over-defensive about being outcasts for so long, or having that mindset they gravitate to teams and players who exemplify the attitude, to the point that they take on a 'me against the world' mindset and apply it in basically every situation, whether warranted or not.

It's quite likely that pretty soon this board and other watering holes of wizfandom will begin to see a migration of new fans. Screen names citing McGee, John Wall, Dray, etc will crop up. Even re-dedicated Gil fans who have been laying low, or who came late. (We've already started to see the occasional sino-centric Yi followers). Some of them won't have been Wiz fans for very long and won't have history here. The one thing I'd suggest is that even if you're accustomed to being an ass and needing to fight for your squad, find a way to welcome even the badwaggoners as they crop up, and encourage more conversation, informed debate. Feel free to be an ass to the rest of us oldheads, but less demolition derby on newcomers.

Because I'm happy for fresh blood, can't even think of anything new to say myself, end up just looking for new ways to say it.

I think I'll start a new thread, something totally different. Hmmn...

[doclinkin]

I don't think it was intentional tanking. The teams were just bad which is what you would expect when you jettison the entire roster and fill it with young players and rookies. If they were to intentionally tank, no way they go on that run they did in 2007. At one time we were 15th in the conference, but ended up finishing 3rd. Could have tanked that year and gotten a high ranked prospect, 2008 NHL draft was the most talent stacked one in a long long time. I don't think building around youth is intentional tanking.

It was intentional tanking--at the GM level. You assemble players, not in an attempt to win now, but to develop them, and your team, to win later.

Then there is intentional tanking at the coaching level. This would involve taking players out who were playing well, assigning minutes unfairly, etc.

I'm not sure how often the coach level tanking actually happens -- coaches don't want to do it because it might hurt their wallet/reputation, and organizations shouldn't want to do it because it breeds a losing culture. I think this should only happen in a very poor organization.

GM level tanking, however, is a very valid organizational strategy given the rules and long-term goals they are working with. I think gm level tanking gets a bad reputation because it is associated with coach level tanking. In reality, you can tank at the GM level and pay a coach and players to try to win every game for you.

Positive Coach level tanking happens late in the year when due to injuries etc a team has clearly been lapped in the playoff race. Then veterans get extra time to rest nagging ills, young players get oncourt development time, etc. The coach can experiment with line-ups midseason, try out new systems (like the twin-point line-up to showcase possibilities to Shawn Livingston on the idea of a re-sign to play next to Gil).

Coaches can be directed to play youngsters for future dividends despite a better win record with already developed veterans. This requires cooperation between coach level and GM level tanking. Players with slight injuries can be encouraged to shut it down etc.

If healthy though I think on individual talents this squad will prove too good to commit to real tanking, unless something really goes wrong with team chemistry. Dray and Gil both increase their efficiency when given the ball, John Wall has a ball-dominant style, Flip prefers to funnel the ball through a single decision-maker instead of spreading the wealth in a dynamic attack, McGee needs John Wall (et al) to force feed him and make decisions for him, Nick Young is a remarkable talent who may never learn how to share and play on a team. Josh Howard is injured, and health is never assured for any team. It's possible the team has a less-than-the-sum-of-its-parts result. There's always a downside, true.

If that proves to be the case then we can assume we'll have midseason trades trying to land future assets and organizational tanking at the front office and coaching level.

[doclinkin]

But until then I expect we'll see an interesting mesh of talents developing on court. Granted the iffy-est aspect is the chemistry mesh between Gil and John Wall. I'd say Dray as well, I'd hate for him to try to blend into the background again and defer to innate cowardice. Shyness. But right, the ability to defend and share the ball in the backcourt is a real question mark (ranking in concern for me just behind our our ability to choke the paint).

Oddly I would have been more confident in the team's success this year, long term, if we'd landed Cousins in the draft instead. I can see the instant chemistry between all players. Gilbert's strengths would be maximized not divided. But we didn't. John Wall is the better pure talent, if possibly less durable (pray mercy). And while Flip has become comfortable with his particular offensive system, he's a bright guy and will have to flex to suit his personnel.

There are hopeful signs though. The twin point wrinkle benefits WallArenas nearly as well as GilLivingston, albeit at a faster pace. Shawn won't be posting down low, instead you have alley oop opportunities for John Wall to finish on the uptempo outlet. Flip prefers to play at a slow careful possession control deliberate pace, but the team has drafted and recruited players who like to run, and all have been told to work their stamina in the offseason since the staff wants to see them get out and go.

And it's possible that between McGee and Seraphin (maybe even Hamady) next to Dray we do develop a strong and intimidatingly long or strong frontcourt defense who can at least cause the slashing perimeter players to check up and shoot jumpers. We may not stifle the best of the Bigs -- though we might if all develops well, McGee did almost singlehandedly snuff the Celts before fouls took their toll.

As for the back court, people forget the sort of energy that a healthy Gil can inject into a team. We haven't seen him healthy in years. On defense you forget the sort of on-ball pressure Gil has been able to give when motivated and focused. He gets distracted ballwatching when his man doesn't have the ball, that's true, but that's a bad habit. Habits can change, once you know about them. We may not have the league's stingiest back court on defense, but there's no question we'll have one of the harder teams to pressure, and ought to be very tough for any opponent to guard, in transition or running off the ball.

So for now, we aim to win with what we've got. If that means we catalyze into something good enough to make the playoffs, even barely, then make a virtue of necessity, use the post season as a crucible and identify the roster needs that will take us to the next level. If we miss the playoffs, fair enough, maybe we've showcased tradeable talents to swap for future assets on the rebuild. If we suck or suffer health setbacks etc. -- okay, been through that before, and ultimately it landed us John Wall, so, not too bad, tank accomplished.

[Induveca]

Ironically doc, before KZ changed his name (forgot what it was) we used to routinely verbally brawl in game chats pretty much for fun. I'm old, semi-retired and mellow now. I just want the team to win, and he'll yes I want Arenas to be amazing again. But being purposely salty and picking fights years ago was a great work stress release and let me talk hoops at the same time.

Some of my best basketball memeories in DC would have never happened without Arenas. Before him have to go back to Webber inn the mid 90s. I haven't seen many players in my lifetime who were a threat to drop 50 2 games in a row. Arenas WAS one of them. I'd like to see him put in a full season, yes it's been a while but he has shown he still has the skill to be elite. Next to Wall? Excited......

And for the record since I moved from DC 6 years ago I'vd lived in NYC/Miami/Peru and France (and soon Prague) not once has my loyalty wavered. Love this franchise, and I want to hold up a collective middle finger to the NBA and pessimists when we are relevant for a prolompnged period of time.....and dare I say guffaw at everyone if we get a chip. I don't care if I'm 83 and in Thailand I'm sticking with this squad. I'll always have a soft spot for the Knicks from my extreme youth but the lovable losers at are the Wiz stole my fandom in 95.

[LyricalRico]

You all better ... ignore me

The defense rests, your honor. LOL

C'mon, you know we all love you.

[GhostsOfGil]

heres a question. do u think arenas will be booed or welcomed back with a standing ovation on opening night when they announce the starting 5?

[Wizardspride]

heres a question. do u think arenas will be booed or welcomed back with a standing ovation on opening night when they announce the starting 5?

I'm fairly certain that before the game Gil will take to the mike and apologize to the fans.

And all will be forgiven.

[DCZards]

heres a question. do u think arenas will be booed or welcomed back with a standing ovation on opening night when they announce the starting 5?

I expect GA to receive mostly cheers. There may be a few boos mixed in. And, if he (and the Wizards) are smart, Gil won't take the mike and say anything about the gun incident. It's time to move on.

[verbal8]

heres a question. do u think arenas will be booed or welcomed back with a standing ovation on opening night when they announce the starting 5?

I expect GA to receive mostly cheers. There may be a few boos mixed in. And, if he (and the Wizards) are smart, Gil won't take the mike and say anything about the gun incident. It's time to move on.

I expect a lot of the negative reaction will be on the road. The rest of the season suspension probably actually helped his situation with Wizards fans. It made him a little sympathetic, rather than another privileged athlete getting a slap on the wrist.

Rather than being blamed for ruining the current season, he is part of an exciting new team and season. I also think the excitement over Wall helps overcome some of the lingering resentment toward Arenas.

[AceDegenerate]

Ironically doc, before KZ changed his name (forgot what it was) we used to routinely verbally brawl in game chats pretty much for fun.

Used to be fokus, and thanks to Miller suspending me around the time of the Arenas incident, I seemed to have missed my opportunity to ever get the name changed again.

[willbcocks]

I won't pretend to have my finger on the pulse of DC wizards fandom, but I doubt there will be much booing in DC. People who would boo a player for his off court actions probably won't come to the games of a rebuilding team. They're probably more casual TV watchers or corporate box attendees.

I certainly wouldn't boo him for stepping on the court...

[miller31time]

Ironically doc, before KZ changed his name (forgot what it was) we used to routinely verbally brawl in game chats pretty much for fun.

Used to be fokus, and thanks to Miller suspending me around the time of the Arenas incident, I seemed to have missed my opportunity to ever get the name changed again.

Mean ol' miller. Suspending beloved, innocent Wizboard golden-boy Krizko Zero.