Political Roundtable Part XII

[AFM]

I'm home schooling my kids. They are reading The Art of The Deal as soon as they can read.

[Ruzious]

I'm willing to see change for the better - but not change for the sake of change. So far, I haven't heard a decent plan.

So, if something is failing - we keep doing that?

Give me something to work with that makes sense. I'm not in the education field and haven't studied this issue, so I don't have a good answer. But I have no interest in trying what I think is a bad answer. Btw, I'm not every liberal, so don't make assumptions that what I say is what every liberal says. You have a tendency to do that when you don't like an answer.

[Wizardspride]

Trump and his administration's comments on Frederick Douglas.....

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

[sfam]

Weirder still, if you look at armed actor dispersion across Syria and Iraq, what you find is the entire region is tribal. You really have smaller armed groups - with the men in each of the tribal areas bartering to decide which higher Sunni armed group to join based more on protection and compensation. Its totally not about ideology for them. They change alliances all the time. Its about survival of their tribe.

Tribalism is one of the primary problems with Middle Eastern culture. And it's one of the reasons they've fallen so far behind the West. Christianity stamped out tribalism in Europe by prohibiting cousin marriage. Islam did not.

Um, yeah, its just that simple. Sucks for them I suppose that they didn't think of that.

[DCZards]

Money is tight no doubt. But I refuse to believe that we can't find the money to improve our failing schools if we really want to.

Great list but there is no point in going over it until there is a clarification on why we keep spending more and getting no results. You ignoring the fundamental question. We have more than tripled per pupil spending - we can triple it again and there would still be no results. Why do you think that is?

DCK, you’ve been asking for some specifics about how we might improve education, especially for low-income kids. But when I give you some specific initiatives/programs you say little or nothing about the merits of any of them. Instead, you revert back to your all-too-familiar mantra of “what about the money.” If you’re not willing to put the education of these kids above your myopic focus on funding then I don’t think there’s much more for us to discuss or debate about the subject.

I was hoping that my post with specific initiatives might lead to a thoughtful discussion of this issue and possible ways to improve the education of poor kids, but you’ve clearly drunken the right-wing Kool-Aid that competition or vouchers is the “silver-bullet” for what ails public education.

Maybe it’s asking too much to ask you to care about the education of other people’s children….beyond worrying about spending on something as important as a child's education and dredging up a chart from the conservative Cato Institute. If you really cared about these kids we’d be talking programs/initiatives first and funding second, imo.

[dckingsfan]

Money is tight no doubt. But I refuse to believe that we can't find the money to improve our failing schools if we really want to.

Great list but there is no point in going over it until there is a clarification on why we keep spending more and getting no results. You ignoring the fundamental question. We have more than tripled per pupil spending - we can triple it again and there would still be no results. Why do you think that is?

DCK, you’ve been asking for some specifics about how we might improve education, especially for low-income kids. But when I give you some specific initiatives/programs you say little or nothing about the merits of any of them. Instead, you revert back to your all-too-familiar mantra of “what about the money.” If you’re not willing to put the education of these kids above your myopic focus on funding then I don’t think there’s much more for us to discuss or debate about the subject.

Because all of your programs (although good ideas) don't get to the root of the problem. You just keep adding new programs that add more cost. Money that we don't have. What are you going to change?

I think this is the puzzle that liberals haven't come to grips with. It is the reason Trump won by saying "I'll blow it up...".

[dckingsfan]

Maybe it’s asking too much to ask you to care about the education of other people’s children….beyond worrying about spending on something as important as a child's education and dredging up a chart from the conservative Cato Institute. If you really cared about these kids we’d be talking programs/initiatives first and funding second, imo.

OUCH. I am not a conservative - you know that. But the arguments are quite compelling.

I would argue that those that DON'T care about kids are the ones that aren't willing to change. I would argue that the ones that have been most hurt by our current educational infrastructure are the ones we both want to help.

And how we got here in the first place - a constant discussion by both Rs and Ds on the programs/initiatives and not on what programs have been beneficial and how to cut the ones that are not.

[Doug_Blew]

Great list but there is no point in going over it until there is a clarification on why we keep spending more and getting no results. You ignoring the fundamental question. We have more than tripled per pupil spending - we can triple it again and there would still be no results. Why do you think that is?

DCK, you’ve been asking for some specifics about how we might improve education, especially for low-income kids. But when I give you some specific initiatives/programs you say little or nothing about the merits of any of them. Instead, you revert back to your all-too-familiar mantra of “what about the money.” If you’re not willing to put the education of these kids above your myopic focus on funding then I don’t think there’s much more for us to discuss or debate about the subject.

Because all of your programs (although good ideas) don't get to the root of the problem. You just keep adding new programs that add more cost. Money that we don't have. What are you going to change?

I think this is the puzzle that liberals haven't come to grips with. It is the reason Trump won by saying "I'll blow it up...".

Are you promoting vouchers? Vouchers will also cost the tax payers money.

On a side note. Not necessarily directed at you. Why is there never talk about reducing or removing farm subsidies? That seems more like a government handout of money.

[tontoz]

Are you promoting vouchers? Vouchers will also cost the tax payers money.

On a side note. Not necessarily directed at you. Why is there never talk about reducing or removing farm subsidies? That seems more like a government handout of money.

It is a handout but it is also a security issue. If we didn't subsidize farmers and let them go out of business we would become dependent on foreign countries for our food supply. That could become a bit of a problem in wartime.

[gtn130]

Great list but there is no point in going over it until there is a clarification on why we keep spending more and getting no results. You ignoring the fundamental question. We have more than tripled per pupil spending - we can triple it again and there would still be no results. Why do you think that is?

DCK, you’ve been asking for some specifics about how we might improve education, especially for low-income kids. But when I give you some specific initiatives/programs you say little or nothing about the merits of any of them. Instead, you revert back to your all-too-familiar mantra of “what about the money.” If you’re not willing to put the education of these kids above your myopic focus on funding then I don’t think there’s much more for us to discuss or debate about the subject.

Because all of your programs (although good ideas) don't get to the root of the problem. You just keep adding new programs that add more cost. Money that we don't have. What are you going to change?

I think this is the puzzle that liberals haven't come to grips with. It is the reason Trump won by saying "I'll blow it up...".

fam I gave you an actionable plan the page before and outlined where you're wrong about education.

Also, the answer to every fiscal conservative's WHO'S GONNA PAY FOR IT is

cut military spending, raise taxes on the rich. done.

[dckingsfan]

Are you promoting vouchers? Vouchers will also cost the tax payers money.

On a side note. Not necessarily directed at you. Why is there never talk about reducing or removing farm subsidies? That seems more like a government handout of money.

I would like to see "all of the above addressed". Vouchers, Charters, improving Public Schools (I think that will be done by reducing some of the reporting and overly onerous federal (and state) requirements.

Boom on the farm subsidies - Ethanol is stupid, wasteful, and bad for cars (because it’s corrosive and inefficient), the economy, and the environment. But once you put these programs they are hard to get rid of...

[DCZards]

Maybe it’s asking too much to ask you to care about the education of other people’s children….beyond worrying about spending on something as important as a child's education and dredging up a chart from the conservative Cato Institute. If you really cared about these kids we’d be talking programs/initiatives first and funding second, imo.

OUCH. I am not a conservative - you know that. But the arguments are quite compelling.

I would argue that those that DON'T care about kids are the ones that aren't willing to change. I would argue that the ones that have been most hurt by our current educational infrastructure are the ones we both want to help.

And how we got here in the first place - a constant discussion by both Rs and Ds on the programs/initiatives and not on what programs have been beneficial and how to cut the ones that are not.

On this we can agree. There are programs that have been tried and failed...and those should be discarded or cut, and the funding for them applied elsewhere.

Then there are programs that have proven effective in improving educational outcomes like Community Schools with wraparound services (e.g. Cincinnati Public Schools), Career and Technical Education (e.g. NYC); and school infrastructure upgrades (DC public schools have done a good job with this and as a result more middle-class DC families are keeping their kids in those schools).

If we're serious about improving children's education, these programs and initiatives should be expanded--and funded--because they've been proven successful in a number of places.

My biggest problem with those who advocate for school vouchers or more competition is that's all they'll consider for improving public education. Most of them refuse to even look at those successful initiatives that are taking root in some urban public school systems. And, yes, there are some success stories...in both traditional public schools and publicly funded charter schools. Let's learn from them and replicate.

IMO, those people who support ONLY vouchers and competition are more interested in destroying public education and privatizing schools than they are in really fixing what's wrong.

[gtn130]

Money is tight no doubt. But I refuse to believe that we can't find the money to improve our failing schools if we really want to.

Great list but there is no point in going over it until there is a clarification on why we keep spending more and getting no results. You ignoring the fundamental question. We have more than tripled per pupil spending - we can triple it again and there would still be no results. Why do you think that is?

DCK, you’ve been asking for some specifics about how we might improve education, especially for low-income kids. But when I give you some specific initiatives/programs you say little or nothing about the merits of any of them. Instead, you revert back to your all-too-familiar mantra of “what about the money.” If you’re not willing to put the education of these kids above your myopic focus on funding then I don’t think there’s much more for us to discuss or debate about the subject.

I was hoping that my post with specific initiatives might lead to a thoughtful discussion of this issue and possible ways to improve the education of poor kids, but you’ve clearly drunken the right-wing Kool-Aid that competition or vouchers is the “silver-bullet” for what ails public education.

Maybe it’s asking too much to ask you to care about the education of other people’s children….beyond worrying about spending on something as important as a child's education and dredging up a chart from the conservative Cato Institute. If you really cared about these kids we’d be talking programs/initiatives first and funding second, imo.

WHO'S GONNA PAY FOR IT is the ultimate anti-intellectual conservative meme

[gtn130]

STOP THE CONVERSATION ABOUT THIS TOPIC UNTIL WE LAY OUT THE LOGISTICS OF WHO IS GONNA PAY FOR IT. WE NEED EVERY DOLLAR ACCOUNTED FOR BEFORE WE CONTINUE SPEAKING ABOUT THIS.

[sfam]

Somehow i doubt Salifi Jihaddism is the reason why women in Europe are afraid to go to public pools.

Actually, its like 100% responsible in the same way its like 100% responsible for 9/11 and the most recent destabilization in the middle east. There would not be a refugee crisis without Salifi Jihaddism.

And strangely enough, blaming all Muslims for the actions of a small virulent sect isn't going to be very stabilizing either. Literally, Trump's "gut" has found the worst possible course. This is a widely shared assessment across both sides of the national security establishment.

But at least its cool to humiliate foreigners! America is becoming great before my eyes!

[tontoz]

Somehow i doubt Salifi Jihaddism is the reason why women in Europe are afraid to go to public pools.

Actually, its like 100% responsible in the same way its like 100% responsible for 9/11 and the most recent destabilization in the middle east. There would not be a refugee crisis without Salifi Jihaddism.

And strangely enough, blaming all Muslims for the actions of a small virulent sect isn't going to be very stabilizing either. Literally, Trump's "gut" has found the worst possible course. This is a widely shared assessment across both sides of the national security establishment.

But at least its cool to humiliate foreigners! America is becoming great before my eyes!

LOL reality check it isn't a small minority of Muslims and becoming a refugee doesn't make someone a rapist.

Look at Muslim majority countries. Most of them are dumpster fires that routinely abused women long before the refugee crisis started.

Sweden's open door policy towards Muslims predates the refugee crisis. So does their rape problem. The difference now is that it has gotten too big for them to cover up.

Iran recently issued a fatwa against women riding bikes. Are you going to blame that on the refugee crisis?

And where exactly did I blame ALL Muslims? Where did Trump blame ALL Muslims? Quotes please.

[Induveca]

As much fun as this is, I honestly can't take the day to day vibe in NYC or the US. I'm heading off to the Caribbean for at least 6 months.

There are currently no tolerable virtual or physical discussions it seems, only anger and/or rage. I'll happily be following the Wizards and checking in, but with a beer in my hand on the beach of golf course.....and a local community who could care less about US politics.

Maybe it shall make me more focused and logical we shall see, but to TGW's chagrin I will keep making money and employing non US-citizens.

Hey Indu, did you see Trumps plan to tax incoming software 30%.

If I wasn't cloud-based on AWS it would be a problem.

I had a long discussion with an associate, and DCK I think you've been spot on with the real issue.

The US is generally in horrible shape mostly due to an inability to pivot on education. Until science/math makes huge leaps in the US education system there really isn't a fix.

Plumbers, and general contractors are going to be updating ROMs and editing .conf files. I've already had an issue as a landlord where I had to ditch a thermostat for an old school one as I couldn't find a repair guy remotely who could reset/reconfigure a simple iOT device.

The solution was installing some ancient thermostat, and setting it to 72 degrees. But I can still connect to my now disconnected nest to see the temperature in the home to see if tenants remembered to set the thermostat to 72 when they check out.

[doclinkin]

[
The unpleasant fact is, multiculturalism doesn't work. It hasn't worked anywhere in history. Multicultural societies that lack a dominant majority descend in balkanization, low public trust, high crime, and eventually civil war and/or secession every single time. What ALWAYS happens is that, as the dominant culture loses electoral power, it has no choice but to transition to identity politics in self defense to combat the identity politics understandably employed by minority groups. Once both sides resort to identity politics, government becomes paralyzed and ineffective.

We have two choices. We can continue with the same mass immigration we've sustained for the past 50 years, which will force whites into identity politics and ultimately lead to civil war/secession. Or we can put a stop to immigration and try and digest the 60 million new Americans we've invited over the past 50 years into one common polity. It took about 40 years of no immigration to digest the wave of immigration between 1880 and 1920, and most of those immigrants were English speaking and could pass for white themselves. It will probably take even longer this time around as the new Americans don't look like the old ones and have a more dramatically different language and culture.

Jesus, the world you live in. Tell my brown wife and mixed daughter and cambodian foster son and black step son how multiculturalism doesn't work. Or Kev's talented multi ethnic mob. Or etc etc.

Look I was going to disagree with you that we are on different sides of the fence. Because ultimately I think people all want the same things, we just have differing opinions on how best to accomplish those aims. I'll circle back to that point. I guess I just want to speak to the fear in this paragraph. Its not so bad, my friend. Date a brown girl, you'll taste new foods, be happy. try a little multiculti.

I think its ironic that you express views like this in this forum, where the guy who agrees with you the most is a brown skinned latino island immigrant, and you are in regular discourse with red headed russian jews, folks of north african muslim family, pakistani, I can't remember all the different ethnicities we've talked to. And we watch a team in a sport with primarily african american players but in a league where it clearly doesnt matter where a guy is from so long as a guy can play. The San Antonio Spurs regularly fill the roster with guys from every ball-playing continent.

We've been SUSTAINED by influxes of talented immigrants over the life of this country. We were founded by purpose-driven immigrants. Migration requires a level of gumption and desire and will and willingness to bet on onesself against unrealistic odds. Immigration restrains itself, to uproot yourself and build a new life elsewhere requires savvy and forethought and optimism and cunning.

Without syrian immigrant parents there's no Apple computers (Steve Jobs' parents). The dream of assimilation and emulating american values is what sinters people of various ethnicities into one american polity. I dont see balkanization, anyone who has worked in the kitchen of a restaurant understands how people who even lack a common tongue suddenly can work together and get along as friends and bullshxt and crack jokes and be a part of a team. The trick it to recognize you as a white guy are not part of Team White but Team America. That is what we best promote, that is what the Statue of Liberty's promise is, that's the preamble to the document that founds our country, that all people are created with the same god given right to live free and work their ass off to achieve happiness.

There's nothing particularly special about being white and american. They weren't even here first. Don't get 'dibs'. I guess the fear may be that since whitefolks rolled in and took people's stuff there may be karmic payback and pale folks ought to worry, but look next to you at Induveca to understand just because a guy is browner doesn't necessarily mean he wants to take YOUR stuff, unless you're his competitor in business and then hell, just work harder than him. and be better than him.

(And isn't that what merit is all about. If white folks are better and smarter than other folks, why handicap the competition in their favor, or whatnot. If they become americans and are better and smarter then team america is stronger by their addition).

Its up to you to buy into identity politics or not. You needn't be forced into it. Just recognize what is best for you is the common good. Everybody wants a good income to provide for their family. Good health. Worthy work that doesn't kill you. And a basic freedom from fear. Knowing that you can have a great conversation with a pakistani Uber driver or an Estonian strongman or whatever a huge thighed dentist who dates Love-A-Bulls.

Our country often finds new sources of revenue that did not exist before even when other resources begin to dwindle. Manufacturing goes elsewhere but Silicon Valley grows. Jazz. Walt Disney. Hollywood. Comic Books. Hiphop. Basketball (pardon me Canadians, yeah we stole it, but so did Bill Gates steal every good idea he ever saw). But we did so BECAUSE of that plurality. Basketball is an example of multibillion dollar business that would not thrive if we still only allowed pale folk to turn pro.

Who knows where the next revolution comes from (drone piloted small goods delivery, revolutionizing the trip to the store. Biotech farming growing replacement human organs in bioengineered sheep). But if we slam the doors on hard working people who see us as a beacon of opportunity , then we lose out on the worlds best and brightest, simply because of an accident of birth origin. Many of whom are not even born yet. And somewhere else will benefit from it. We'll be looking at the ass end of Brazil, or Mexico or who knows where.

The dominant culture isn't ethnic origin. Or even white skin. Its the American Dream: as stated in our founding documents: "If you work really hard you can get newer cooler stuff as soon as it hits the market. Fxck yeah, America !!!!!!".

Amen, Thomas Jefferson, couldnt have said it better myself.

[sfam]

Somehow i doubt Salifi Jihaddism is the reason why women in Europe are afraid to go to public pools.

Actually, its like 100% responsible in the same way its like 100% responsible for 9/11 and the most recent destabilization in the middle east. There would not be a refugee crisis without Salifi Jihaddism.

And strangely enough, blaming all Muslims for the actions of a small virulent sect isn't going to be very stabilizing either. Literally, Trump's "gut" has found the worst possible course. This is a widely shared assessment across both sides of the national security establishment.

But at least its cool to humiliate foreigners! America is becoming great before my eyes!

LOL reality check it isn't a small minority of Muslims and becoming a refugee doesn't make someone a rapist.

Look at Muslim majority countries. Most of them are dumpster fires that routinely abused women long before the refugee crisis started.

Sweden's open door policy towards Muslims predates the refugee crisis. So does their rape problem. The difference now is that it has gotten too big for them to cover up.

Iran recently issued a fatwa against women riding bikes. Are you going to blame that on the refugee crisis?

And where exactly did I blame ALL Muslims? Where did Trump blame ALL Muslims? Quotes please.

Well again, I just showed you a study of over 65K people debunking your sweden claim. But the fact remains there wouldn't be a refugee crisis without this virulent strain that has taken hold.

Regarding concern for women's rights, I couldn't be more concerned for the plight of discrimination against women in Muslim countries and across the world, including gender-based violence, Female Genital mutilation, and most horrifically, sexual violence as a tool of warfare, as is happening in South Sudan right now. I've worked on all of those issues, including in a number of Muslim countries, and know most of the gender experts working on these topics, as well as those working on harrassmap.org in Egypt and Morroco, and Safecity in India. A fatwa against riding bikes is really not the issue to be focused on.

But I'm really thrilled to hear your concern for the plight of Muslim women. Hopefully you'll feel some sorrow for Muslim American women. I literally had one tear up a few hours ago when I told her forcefully this country belonged to her as well.

If you are concerned about discrimination against Muslim women, I'd suggest there's a country much closer to home where this is a serious and growing problem.