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Political Roundtable Part XI

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#1021 » by nate33 » Mon Dec 5, 2016 3:08 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
verbal8 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:So, did we miss the Trump/Taiwan thing. Does this mean he is just ignorant and doesn't read?


In alot of ways this is like the tape with Billy Bush. A pretty extreme example of something that there have been indications of about Trump all along.

Was there any indication during his campaign that he took foreign policy seriously? Any indication he is able to follow normal protocols of process or behavior?

Probably not. Even so, this wreaks of "I just didn't know"... ignorance if you will.

Heard on the news this morning that the phone call was planned and discussed beforehand. Not sure if that's true, but that's what the Trump people said.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#1022 » by dckingsfan » Mon Dec 5, 2016 3:19 pm

nate33 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
verbal8 wrote:
In alot of ways this is like the tape with Billy Bush. A pretty extreme example of something that there have been indications of about Trump all along.

Was there any indication during his campaign that he took foreign policy seriously? Any indication he is able to follow normal protocols of process or behavior?

Probably not. Even so, this wreaks of "I just didn't know"... ignorance if you will.

Heard on the news this morning that the phone call was planned and discussed beforehand. Not sure if that's true, but that's what the Trump people said.

Not buying it in the least. Especially with the, "she called me" deer in the headlights - what me, what the hell... stuff from Trump. Ignorance best explains this one... sadly.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#1023 » by AFM » Mon Dec 5, 2016 3:39 pm

Agreed on the ignorance.
Honestly I doubt Donald knows the difference between The People's Republic and The Republic of China...
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#1024 » by nate33 » Mon Dec 5, 2016 3:50 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
nate33 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:Probably not. Even so, this wreaks of "I just didn't know"... ignorance if you will.

Heard on the news this morning that the phone call was planned and discussed beforehand. Not sure if that's true, but that's what the Trump people said.

Not buying it in the least. Especially with the, "she called me" deer in the headlights - what me, what the hell... stuff from Trump. Ignorance best explains this one... sadly.

I just read a whole article on it in the Washington Post. I'm now sure it's true. This was planned. The planning involved both us and Taiwan. The highly anti-Trump Washington Post is reporting it as fact, not merely as spin.

It was planned weeks ahead by staffers and Taiwan specialists on both sides, according to people familiar with the plans.

Immediately after Trump won the Nov. 8 election, his staffers compiled a list of foreign leaders with whom to arrange calls. “Very early on, Taiwan was on that list,” said Stephen Yates, a national security official during the presidency of George W. Bush and an expert on China and Taiwan. “Once the call was scheduled, I was told that there was a briefing for President-elect Trump. They knew that there would be reaction and potential blowback.”

Alex Huang, a spokesman for Tsai, told the Reuters news agency, “Of course both sides agreed ahead of time before making contact.”

Tsai’s office said she had told Trump during the phone call that she hoped the United States “would continue to support more opportunities for Taiwan to participate in international issues.”


I know it's easy to think that Trump is clueless, but you have to understand that his whole "regular guy" thing is a shtick. Trump is an extremely smart and calculating man and he has some experienced guys around him. If nothing else, do you really think Reince Priebus would let Trump disrupt 40 years of foreign policy custom by accident?
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#1025 » by dckingsfan » Mon Dec 5, 2016 3:51 pm

I don't think Trump even knew about the status of Taiwan - I think he is not well read. Smart but ignorant.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#1026 » by nate33 » Mon Dec 5, 2016 3:52 pm

dckingsfan wrote:I don't think Trump even knew about the status of Taiwan - I think he is not well read. Smart but ignorant.

Read the Post article.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#1027 » by dckingsfan » Mon Dec 5, 2016 3:58 pm

nate33 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:I don't think Trump even knew about the status of Taiwan - I think he is not well read. Smart but ignorant.

Read the Post article.

I have :)
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#1028 » by Ruzious » Mon Dec 5, 2016 4:12 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
BigA wrote:Trump is still a private citizen after all, so it's not as if he can confer chief of state status on the president of Taiwan by speaking on the phone.

That is true and the one point I missed. He is "only" president elect...

It's an easy point to miss if you have the misfortune of listening to the dull set drones of Kellyanne Conway. Fingernails screeching on a chalkboard.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#1029 » by nate33 » Mon Dec 5, 2016 4:16 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
nate33 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:I don't think Trump even knew about the status of Taiwan - I think he is not well read. Smart but ignorant.

Read the Post article.

I have :)

Okay. So then you must accept that either it was planned ahead of time, or Trump convinced Stephen Yates (a Bush administration national security official), Richard Grenell (former State Department official) and Alex Huang (a spokesman for Tsai Ing-wen) to lie in order to help Trump save face. And you have to believe that Washington Post reporters Anne Gearan, Philip Rucker and Simon Denyer all fell for the lie. Simon Denyer is the Washington Post bureau chief in China.

You must also believe that Gordan Chang, an Asia expert and author of "The Coming collapse of China", is also a dupe.

Gordon Chang, an Asia expert and author of “ The Coming Collapse of China ,” said Trump’s tweet Friday night that he had just accepted a call from Tsai was “not credible.”

“This has all the hallmarks of a prearranged phone call,” Chang said. “It doesn’t make sense that Tsai out of the blue would call Donald Trump. She is not known for taking big leaps into the unknown, and it would be politically embarrassing when it was learned that she called Trump and he would not take her call.”
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#1030 » by AFM » Mon Dec 5, 2016 5:53 pm

Donald "GOAT FOREIGN POLICY" Trump

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You dumb bastards!
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#1031 » by dckingsfan » Mon Dec 5, 2016 6:35 pm

nate33 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
nate33 wrote:Read the Post article.

I have :)

Okay. So then you must accept that either it was planned ahead of time, or Trump convinced Stephen Yates (a Bush administration national security official), Richard Grenell (former State Department official) and Alex Huang (a spokesman for Tsai Ing-wen) to lie in order to help Trump save face. And you have to believe that Washington Post reporters Anne Gearan, Philip Rucker and Simon Denyer all fell for the lie. Simon Denyer is the Washington Post bureau chief in China.

You must also believe that Gordan Chang, an Asia expert and author of "The Coming collapse of China", is also a dupe.

Gordon Chang, an Asia expert and author of “ The Coming Collapse of China ,” said Trump’s tweet Friday night that he had just accepted a call from Tsai was “not credible.”

“This has all the hallmarks of a prearranged phone call,” Chang said. “It doesn’t make sense that Tsai out of the blue would call Donald Trump. She is not known for taking big leaps into the unknown, and it would be politically embarrassing when it was learned that she called Trump and he would not take her call.”

That is fully correct. I believe that Trump knew he was going to take the call ahead of time. I do not feel that he understood the ramifications and duh to duping the Washington Post - you pointed out well how badly they missed during the campaign.

Did you read Chang's book? When did he write it? Did it come true? He is saying that they can't survive what we just survived. Yes, Chang is consistently wrong...

And yes, I still say Trump is ignorant (not stupid) by this example.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#1032 » by closg00 » Mon Dec 5, 2016 6:58 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
BigA wrote:Trump is still a private citizen after all, so it's not as if he can confer chief of state status on the president of Taiwan by speaking on the phone.

That is true and the one point I missed. He is "only" president elect...


China doesn't care, they are pissed. It's little things like this that Trump is clueless about because his first position in politics is that of President.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#1033 » by FAH1223 » Mon Dec 5, 2016 7:03 pm

Speaking of China, John Pilger has a documentary on "The Coming War on China". He talks about what Obama's Pivot to Asia really was about.

Interview here:



Trump talking to the Taiwanese President is his attempt to gain some type of leverage over China.

China is moving rapidly to establishing it's One Belt, One Road program (OBOR). Apart from the economic dimensions there is a strategic one.

Once the OBOR is completed it does not have the capacity to move even half of China's current trade, but it will ensure that China can never be blockaded like Japan in 1941. Once it's built you have guaranteed Chinese victory in any war near China.

The US has only a few years were it is capable of causing mayhem towards China in East Asia. Which is why you're seeing this buildup in the South China Sea.

The end game is near and the Washington hawks know it, the only escape is to provoke a thermonuclear war, the Chinese currently even according to Russian experts will be toast in under 30 min with not much retaliatory capability to push back.

The missile defense shield encirclement of Russia, which are really nuclear missiles as one Russian expert put it, puts the doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction at risk, the US can get away with massive first strike and only risk some retaliatory strikes from sub-marines with much of Europe becoming cannon fodder. Interestingly enough, Trump and Mattis both seem to be AGAINST first strike policy.

What China is doing is unprecedented, by giving all the countries on route the silk-road tremendous investment, leverage as well as gigantic economic benefits and prosperity, rather then old school hegemony with robbery, enslavement and looting, you best be assured those countries will all be staunch allies due to the mutual benefits. Iran is at the heart of this project. The first foreign leader in Tehran after the international sanctions were lifted in January was Xi Jinping and for good reason. China was one of the reasons Iran survived the sanctions regime and China is imprinting itself more and more throughout Iran.

General Flynn's hawkish tone on Iran... as well as Mattis' past comments on Iran needing to be taken with a harder line... Along with Trump's strong rhetoric about Beijing's economic policies seems to set the stage for the US trying to put a black eye on both countries and perhaps even trying to sabotage aspects of the One Belt One Road project.

There's a problem though... the US has no foothold in Central Asia and Afghanistan is really the only gateway it has.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#1034 » by BigA » Mon Dec 5, 2016 7:42 pm

closg00 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
BigA wrote:Trump is still a private citizen after all, so it's not as if he can confer chief of state status on the president of Taiwan by speaking on the phone.

That is true and the one point I missed. He is "only" president elect...


China doesn't care, they are pissed. It's little things like this that Trump is clueless about because his first position in politics is that of President.

So the top priority for the US president or president-elect is to avoid pissing off China at all costs?

Should China have a veto over who the US president or president-elect talks to?

Was Obama clueless when he met with the Dalai Lama, which pissed off China?

(And I'm skeptical about characterizing the Chinese attitude as being "pissed off," as if there's some emotion involved. The Chinese are going to pursue their perceived interests in relations with the US to the extent possible, which involves protesting or complaining about stuff they don't like. At the same time, the Chinese disregard US protests by continuing to jail dissidents, build and fortify artificial islands in the territorial waters of other countries in defiance of World Court rulings, etc.)
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#1035 » by payitforward » Mon Dec 5, 2016 7:53 pm

AFM wrote:Thanks for the preachy, overly pedantic post, as usual. The next time someone posts "man, I hate Grunfeld." I'll be sure to remind them, "you don't actually know him, so..."

So stupid.

You are right. My post was pedantic -- really, it was depressed, and that's not a good state to be in when I post. So... apologies. Esp. to you; don't know why I picked you out. Let me off the hook, please. I'd appreciate it.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#1036 » by montestewart » Mon Dec 5, 2016 8:59 pm

payitforward wrote:
AFM wrote:Thanks for the preachy, overly pedantic post, as usual. The next time someone posts "man, I hate Grunfeld." I'll be sure to remind them, "you don't actually know him, so..."

So stupid.

You are right. My post was pedantic -- really, it was depressed, and that's not a good state to be in when I post. So... apologies. Esp. to you; don't know why I picked you out. Let me off the hook, please. I'd appreciate it.

Listen to you two going carrying on like an old married couple. Get a room!

It was Comet Ping Pong, not Atomic Billiards. It has a great sign and I'm surprised WTA hasn't shown up to decry what looks like a repurposing of a classic DC neon liquor store sign (or at least a reproduction of it) toward some nefarious hipster end.

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My favorite part about the story is the phrase "self-investigating," as in the looks-like-an-assault-rifle toting rube decided to come up to DC to investigate the satanic-Democratic Party-infant slavery-death cult for himself. Nothing furthers an investigation like firing off a couple of rounds into the ceiling. Works in the movies.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#1037 » by nate33 » Mon Dec 5, 2016 9:36 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
nate33 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:I have :)

Okay. So then you must accept that either it was planned ahead of time, or Trump convinced Stephen Yates (a Bush administration national security official), Richard Grenell (former State Department official) and Alex Huang (a spokesman for Tsai Ing-wen) to lie in order to help Trump save face. And you have to believe that Washington Post reporters Anne Gearan, Philip Rucker and Simon Denyer all fell for the lie. Simon Denyer is the Washington Post bureau chief in China.

You must also believe that Gordan Chang, an Asia expert and author of "The Coming collapse of China", is also a dupe.

Gordon Chang, an Asia expert and author of “ The Coming Collapse of China ,” said Trump’s tweet Friday night that he had just accepted a call from Tsai was “not credible.”

“This has all the hallmarks of a prearranged phone call,” Chang said. “It doesn’t make sense that Tsai out of the blue would call Donald Trump. She is not known for taking big leaps into the unknown, and it would be politically embarrassing when it was learned that she called Trump and he would not take her call.”

That is fully correct. I believe that Trump knew he was going to take the call ahead of time. I do not feel that he understood the ramifications and duh to duping the Washington Post - you pointed out well how badly they missed during the campaign.

Did you read Chang's book? When did he write it? Did it come true? He is saying that they can't survive what we just survived. Yes, Chang is consistently wrong...

And yes, I still say Trump is ignorant (not stupid) by this example.

I just want to be sure what you are saying. It's one of the two:

1. Trump planned for the call, worked behind the scenes with his advisors and Taiwan's people, but the whole time, in never dawned on Trump and it was never brought to his attention that this was a significant departure of diplomatic protocol.

2. Trump planed for the call, worked behind the scenes with his advisors and Taiwan's people, and knew it was a significant departure from diplomatic protocol, but did so anyway because he thinks the protocol is stupid and/or no longer warranted. You think this is a stupid move by Trump.

If your position is number 1, then I don't think you are applying logic to come to your conclusions. I find it extraordinarily difficult to believe that nobody on his team mentioned the one China policy in the midst of all those preparations.

If your position is number 2, then fine. You disagree with Trump's position. But don't tell me that Trump didn't know about the status of Taiwan.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#1038 » by Induveca » Mon Dec 5, 2016 10:43 pm

Considering Trump had been planning to develop hotels and condos in TaoYuan, Taiwan for the past 3 years, it's pretty safe to assume he knew what he was doing.

I suspect it's a first foray into challenging Beijing on trade, showing the US Government once again has a spine.

He did make a great point, the US just sold Taiwan 118 billion in weapons, but we can't speak formally? How is anything more "formal" than two countries selling 118 billion in weapons?
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#1039 » by dckingsfan » Mon Dec 5, 2016 10:55 pm

nate33 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
nate33 wrote:Okay. So then you must accept that either it was planned ahead of time, or Trump convinced Stephen Yates (a Bush administration national security official), Richard Grenell (former State Department official) and Alex Huang (a spokesman for Tsai Ing-wen) to lie in order to help Trump save face. And you have to believe that Washington Post reporters Anne Gearan, Philip Rucker and Simon Denyer all fell for the lie. Simon Denyer is the Washington Post bureau chief in China.

You must also believe that Gordan Chang, an Asia expert and author of "The Coming collapse of China", is also a dupe.


That is fully correct. I believe that Trump knew he was going to take the call ahead of time. I do not feel that he understood the ramifications and duh to duping the Washington Post - you pointed out well how badly they missed during the campaign.

Did you read Chang's book? When did he write it? Did it come true? He is saying that they can't survive what we just survived. Yes, Chang is consistently wrong...

And yes, I still say Trump is ignorant (not stupid) by this example.

I just want to be sure what you are saying. It's one of the two:

1. Trump planned for the call, worked behind the scenes with his advisors and Taiwan's people, but the whole time, in never dawned on Trump and it was never brought to his attention that this was a significant departure of diplomatic protocol.

2. Trump planed for the call, worked behind the scenes with his advisors and Taiwan's people, and knew it was a significant departure from diplomatic protocol, but did so anyway because he thinks the protocol is stupid and/or no longer warranted. You think this is a stupid move by Trump.

If your position is number 1, then I don't think you are applying logic to come to your conclusions. I find it extraordinarily difficult to believe that nobody on his team mentioned the one China policy in the midst of all those preparations.

If your position is number 2, then fine. You disagree with Trump's position. But don't tell me that Trump didn't know about the status of Taiwan.

3. Trump was ignorant of the protocol. Did minimal planning, set-up the call without fully understanding the consequences and then was surprised by the outcome. My guess is the briefing on One China was oral and he didn't take the time to go in-depth on what it means, the potential ramifications or outcomes.

The "she called me..." shows a bit of the ignorance on the subject. It throws Taiwan in harms way without thinking through the consequences.

They are now spinning it as part of their well planned strategy.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XI 

Post#1040 » by AFM » Mon Dec 5, 2016 11:10 pm

payitforward wrote:
AFM wrote:Thanks for the preachy, overly pedantic post, as usual. The next time someone posts "man, I hate Grunfeld." I'll be sure to remind them, "you don't actually know him, so..."

So stupid.

You are right. My post was pedantic -- really, it was depressed, and that's not a good state to be in when I post. So... apologies. Esp. to you; don't know why I picked you out. Let me off the hook, please. I'd appreciate it.


Geez, now I feel bad...

I'll tell you what, let's meet at comet ping pong for some pizza and child sex to make up.

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