Political Roundtable Part XXV

Post #1021 » by **nate33** » Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:35 pm

pancakes3 wrote:
nate33 wrote:The investigation into the FISA abuse will start now. We already know that the justification for the FISA warrant was based solely on Steele's unverified dossier and the fact that that dossier was opposition research from the Clinton team was hidden from the court.

fake news, bro. you have to stop harping on the FISA warrants.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/fbi-makes-public-fisa-warrant-former-trump-campaign-aide-carter-n893466

the most infuriating thing about the russian investigation is the knee-jerk instinct that everything is corrupt and conspiratorial.

it's simply the system of checks and balances at work. this is a good thing. however, if you question the system, undermine the system, and make the system partisan instead of independent, then the system doesn't work. simple as that.

From the article:

The warrant backs up a claim made by Democrats in Congress that the FBI did notify the judges of where some of the information came from — Christopher Steele, the former British spy who drafted the unverified "dossier" about Trump, and Steele’s associates.

And it backs up the claim that the FBI used information from other sources that were wholly uninvolved with Steele, including published reports.

Those "published reports" was the news article by Michael Isikoff which was derived from Christopher Steele.

Pointgod · Post #1022 » by **Pointgod** » Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:37 pm

montestewart wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
Pointgod wrote: As for personal attacks STD and TGW have made attacks against me and I’ve never once hit that report button. It’s politics and things get heated but I don’t take things personal because frankly this is just a messageboard. But I think it degrades that quality when you have posters that refuse to argue in good faith and post purposely post lies or misinformation.

Props for that by the way - in all the disagreements we have had - you have never leveled a personal attack on me... just saying - I can see where that hasn't been a two way street for you.

Agreed. Pointgod, I am trying to crack down on personal attacks, and don't mean to single you out. Sometimes work gets in the way and I end up playing catch up.

No worries. I didn’t think you were.

pancakes3 · Post #1023 » by **pancakes3** » Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:40 pm

nate33 wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:
nate33 wrote:The investigation into the FISA abuse will start now. We already know that the justification for the FISA warrant was based solely on Steele's unverified dossier and the fact that that dossier was opposition research from the Clinton team was hidden from the court.

fake news, bro. you have to stop harping on the FISA warrants.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/fbi-makes-public-fisa-warrant-former-trump-campaign-aide-carter-n893466

the most infuriating thing about the russian investigation is the knee-jerk instinct that everything is corrupt and conspiratorial.

it's simply the system of checks and balances at work. this is a good thing. however, if you question the system, undermine the system, and make the system partisan instead of independent, then the system doesn't work. simple as that.

From the article:

The warrant backs up a claim made by Democrats in Congress that the FBI did notify the judges of where some of the information came from — Christopher Steele, the former British spy who drafted the unverified "dossier" about Trump, and Steele’s associates.

And it backs up the claim that the FBI used information from other sources that were wholly uninvolved with Steele, including published reports.

Those "published reports" was the news article by Michael Isikoff which was derived from Christopher Steele.

i can't tell if you're being intentionally or unintentionally obtuse

Post #1024 » by **nate33** » Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:58 pm

pancakes3 wrote:
nate33 wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:
fake news, bro. you have to stop harping on the FISA warrants.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/fbi-makes-public-fisa-warrant-former-trump-campaign-aide-carter-n893466

the most infuriating thing about the russian investigation is the knee-jerk instinct that everything is corrupt and conspiratorial.

it's simply the system of checks and balances at work. this is a good thing. however, if you question the system, undermine the system, and make the system partisan instead of independent, then the system doesn't work. simple as that.

From the article:

The warrant backs up a claim made by Democrats in Congress that the FBI did notify the judges of where some of the information came from — Christopher Steele, the former Bhttps://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/01/31/what-we-know-about-the-warrant-to-surveil-carter-page/?utm_term=.ecc3561ba105ritish spy who drafted the unverified "dossier" about Trump, and Steele’s associates.

And it backs up the claim that the FBI used information from other sources that were wholly uninvolved with Steele, including published reports.

Those "published reports" was the news article by Michael Isikoff which was derived from Christopher Steele.

i can't tell if you're being intentionally or unintentionally obtuse

Much of the FISA warrant is still redacted, but here's an article on Medium that speculates what the "evidence" was against Carter Page. A similar article at the Washington Post says the same things. The "evidence" is as follows:

Page was the subject of a FISA Warrant in 2013. The 2016 applications would undoubtedly mention that and include the evidence that justified those warrants. This was at least partially because the FBI intercepted Russian agents talking about Page and their efforts to recruit Page as a Russian agent.
In 2014 the FBI interviewed Page and warned him that Russian agents were targeting him. One purpose of such interviews is to neutralize Russian efforts by tipping off the target. Intelligence officials assume a prudent, and loyal American, would back off their Russian connections knowing KGB is targeting them in this manner.
In July 2016 Page traveled to Russia, gave a pro-Russian speech against American policy, and had meetings with Russian officials that he did not disclose.
Steele (yes this is where he comes in), a previously reliable source, told the FBI that Russian sources told him that in those undisclosed meetings Page met with Russians who offered compromising material on Clinton for the Trump Campaign and that Page was receptive to getting it.
An Australian Diplomat advised the FBI that another member of the Trump Campaign, George Papadopoulos, bragged to him about campaign efforts to get dirt on Clinton from Russian spies who had hacked her email.

Item #1 and 2: The fact that Carter Page was approached by the Russia was well-known by the FBI. It was so well known that the FBI utilized Page as an employee to try and catch the Russians in the act. Page literally worked with the FBI against Russia. Clearly, the FBI didn't seriously consider Page a foreign agent. And if they did, the FBI's job would be to tell the Trump campaign that they just hired a guy who may be compromised - not set up a FISA warrant on him.

Item #3: A policy disagreement is not a crime nor evidence that he is a foreign agent.

Item #4: The Steele Dossier. Unverified.

Item #5: The meeting with the Australian Diplomat was a setup. Stephen Halper, a CIA asset, whispered in Page's ear that he heard the Russians were hacking the Clinton emails. Then the Australian Diplomat Alexander Downer asks Page if he heard about Russian hacking, Page says yes. So Downer (who has connections with Uranium One and Hillary Clinton, by the way) then goes and tells the State Department.

pancakes3 · Post #1025 » by **pancakes3** » Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:33 pm

that's the rabbit-holing that i'm talking about. the report came out with no recommendation of collusion charges -> no evidence of collusion -> the investigation was meaningless -> the investigation was illegal -> the information upon which the investigation was predicated upon must be bad -> the warrant issued to obtain the information must be bad -> the information upon which the warrant was based upon must be bad.

this is poisoning the well six ways to sunday.

nobody said that a policy disagreement is a crime, or evidence that page is a foreign agent. nobody is claiming the dossier is unverified. but i distinctively remember debating with you and popper the relevant standards of establishing probable cause for a warrant, and you're a smart enough guy that i know you know better.

and it's pretty weird to throw in a dig at downer and uranium one there at the end. are we criticizing the foreign minister of australia engage in foreign dealings? or for fighting HIV? or are we saying that he's not a credible source?

it's all just so dumb. what even is the conspiracy? to win the election for Clinton? to impeach Trump? to embarrass Trump? and it all started with Carter Page, before Trump even announced he was running?

stilldropin20 · Post #1026 » by **stilldropin20** » Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:00 pm

trump is not only innocent. he was framed. and that framing was an attempted coup.

but most importantly...he is totally getting re-elected! only 6 more years of Trump!!

Read on Twitter

stilldropin20 · Post #1027 » by **stilldropin20** » Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:09 pm

pancakes3 wrote:that's the rabbit-holing that i'm talking about. the report came out with no recommendation of collusion charges -> no evidence of collusion -> the investigation was meaningless -> the investigation was illegal -> the information upon which the investigation was predicated upon must be bad -> the warrant issued to obtain the information must be bad -> the information upon which the warrant was based upon must be bad.

this is poisoning the well six ways to sunday.

nobody said that a policy disagreement is a crime, or evidence that page is a foreign agent. nobody is claiming the dossier is unverified. but i distinctively remember debating with you and popper the relevant standards of establishing probable cause for a warrant, and you're a smart enough guy that i know you know better.

and it's pretty weird to throw in a dig at downer and uranium one there at the end. are we criticizing the foreign minister of australia engage in foreign dealings? or for fighting HIV? or are we saying that he's not a credible source?

it's all just so dumb. what even is the conspiracy? to win the election for Clinton? to impeach Trump? to embarrass Trump? and it all started with Carter Page, before Trump even announced he was running?

Read on Twitter

stilldropin20 · Post #1028 » by **stilldropin20** » Mon Apr 1, 2019 12:59 am

everyone knows obama ordered this. There is NO WAY appointed officials would conspire to investigate the opposition party without the direction of their leader. no effing way!

What's disgusting is that it is well known that Bush not only stepped aside for obama but rolled out the red carpet. And this is how obama acts when he loses? wow! just wow! damn shame. Obama: the great divider in chief.

Read on Twitter

closg00 · Post #1029 » by **closg00** » Mon Apr 1, 2019 1:17 am

illegal Obama spy operation :lol:

Pointgod · Post #1030 » by **Pointgod** » Mon Apr 1, 2019 1:53 am

closg00 wrote::lol: illegal Obama spy operation

I’m just going to hold my tongue.

gtn130 · Post #1031 » by **gtn130** » Mon Apr 1, 2019 1:57 am

montestewart wrote:Still, Nate is to me clearly not the same as STD. Agree with his sourcing and interpretation or don't, but he generally leaves a clear trail of evidence for you to consider and rebut if you choose. That's what this thread is for, and when you focus on that, you do a fine job.

This is where the centrist bothsidesing goes way off the rails.

Nate isn’t SD levels of insanity but he has unironicslly used Info Wars as a source. His ‘sourcing’ is totally illegitimate but you’re defending it because we need both sides to be the same at all times

Post #1032 » by **montestewart** » Mon Apr 1, 2019 2:13 am

gtn130 wrote:
montestewart wrote:Still, Nate is to me clearly not the same as STD. Agree with his sourcing and interpretation or don't, but he generally leaves a clear trail of evidence for you to consider and rebut if you choose. That's what this thread is for, and when you focus on that, you do a fine job.

This is where the centrist bothsidesing goes way off the rails.

Nate isn’t SD levels of insanity but he has unironicslly used Info Wars as a source. His ‘sourcing’ is totally illegitimate but you’re defending it because we need both sides to be the same at all times

Nah, don't need or want both/all sides to be the same, and they wouldn't be regardless. I don't have a quota system. Just trying to minimize personal attacks, broad brush characterizations ("all liberals," "all Republicans," etc.), intentional baiting and trolling, and knowingly posting false information.

pancakes3 · Post #1033 » by **pancakes3** » Mon Apr 1, 2019 2:14 am

it's amazing how much mileage trump is getting out of "the Deep State is conspiring against me."

like, if the FISA courts are corrupt, and Obama did illegally surveil political opponents, and Hillary sold out the U.S. with every act she took as secretary of state, then by all means, open cases on all of them. 2 years worth of executive power, and total control of congress. nothing was stopping these investigations.

it feels like arguing with flat earthers.

stilldropin20 · Post #1034 » by **stilldropin20** » Mon Apr 1, 2019 2:21 am

Read on Twitter

susan rice...(in email CCing the entire intel/DOJ...the day before Trump takes office :lol:

) Per obama, " let's do this by the book" :lol:

This was the "unmaksing email" btw where americans were unmasked from NSA metadata in phone calls and emails. Those teransmissions emigrated to all intel and DOJ departments. Thats same data was used to entrap Flynn.

BTW, i will bet $50 dollars that Mueller recommends dropping all charges on flynn. Thats how dirty they did flynn. the man should be the sitting NSA director. instead he had to take out a 2nd mortagage on his home and spend his life saving to lawyer up. (over $200k in legal fees).

Read on Twitter

i know one thing. Trump aint letting this go. it will be fully investigated.

Read on Twitter

Brennen and clapper already looking for cover. what a joke.

Read on Twitter

eff that. Its time those 2 go to the pig roast.

Pointgod · Post #1035 » by **Pointgod** » Mon Apr 1, 2019 2:24 am

gtn130 wrote:
montestewart wrote:Still, Nate is to me clearly not the same as STD. Agree with his sourcing and interpretation or don't, but he generally leaves a clear trail of evidence for you to consider and rebut if you choose. That's what this thread is for, and when you focus on that, you do a fine job.

This is where the centrist bothsidesing goes way off the rails.

Nate isn’t SD levels of insanity but he has unironicslly used Info Wars as a source. His ‘sourcing’ is totally illegitimate but you’re defending it because we need both sides to be the same at all times

Oh no Nate is exactly like STD he’s just more subtle. That’s why I’ve called him out because I see through everything. For example remember the comment he made about Hillary’s disappearing 30,000 e-mails? That’s been completely debunked.

https://www.vox.com/2016/10/10/13222360/trump-emails-clinton

We should get the most important point about this out of the way: From what we know from the FBI, Trump’s accusation that is flat-out incorrect. FBI Director James Comey has repeatedly said that there’s “no evidence” Clinton’s emails were deleted in an attempt to hide them, and all of the documents released by the FBI’s investigation since then have backed that up that conclusion.

For one, Clinton’s staff told the contractor managing the private sever to delete the second batch of emails in December 2014, according to the FBI. The House Republicans’ Benghazi committee didn’t order that all emails on the private server be preserved until March 2015. (There’s a complicated counter-narrative that these emails weren’t actually deleted until a conference call with Bill Clinton’s attorneys after the subpoena was issued, but that story doesn’t make much sense for reasons I explained here.)

"There is no question that former Secretary Clinton had authority to delete personal emails without agency supervision — she appropriately could have done so even if she were working on a government server," said attorneys from the Justice Department, according to CBS News.

They’re both products of the same right wing ecosystem of mistruths and lies.

stilldropin20 · Post #1036 » by **stilldropin20** » Mon Apr 1, 2019 2:25 am

montestewart wrote:
gtn130 wrote:
montestewart wrote:Still, Nate is to me clearly not the same as STD. Agree with his sourcing and interpretation or don't, but he generally leaves a clear trail of evidence for you to consider and rebut if you choose. That's what this thread is for, and when you focus on that, you do a fine job.

This is where the centrist bothsidesing goes way off the rails.

Nate isn’t SD levels of insanity but he has unironicslly used Info Wars as a source. His ‘sourcing’ is totally illegitimate but you’re defending it because we need both sides to be the same at all times

Nah, don't need or want both/all sides to be the same, and they wouldn't be regardless. I don't have a quota system. Just trying to minimize personal attacks, broad brush characterizations ("all liberals," "all Republicans," etc.), intentional baiting and trolling, and knowingly posting false information.

all they have done is post trump is a traitor and trump is a racist for 3 years!!!!!! every single post comes down to trump is a traitor and putin puppet or trump is a racist!! Every. single. post.

and its all lies. No credible evidence of either. none what so ever. not a single shred. minorities have never succeeded better under any other president. minority employment is up. wages are up. education is up. advanced education is up. upper level managment. jobs in show biz. everything is up under trump.

its all lies. nearly every single post in this thread by liberals have been lies. all of it. just to make him look bad. to ruin his brand.

and nate and i laid out evidence to the contrary regularly. are evidence is now proven right. so we were the only 2 guys telling the truth in this entire thread for 2.5 years when it comes to trump.

Pointgod · Post #1037 » by **Pointgod** » Mon Apr 1, 2019 2:33 am

pancakes3 wrote:it's amazing how much mileage trump is getting out of "the Deep State is conspiring against me."

like, if the FISA courts are corrupt, and Obama did illegally surveil political opponents, and Hillary sold out the U.S. with every act she took as secretary of state, then by all means, open cases on all of them. 2 years worth of executive power, and total control of congress. nothing was stopping these investigations.

it feels like arguing with flat earthers.

Again standing offer to anyone who wants to take me up on this. If Obama and his DOJ are truly corrupt as claimed then let’s do a bet. Just one indictment by the end of this year of someone involved in this alleged deep state and corruption. Just one! Not even a conviction. Loser has to leave the thread for one year.

pancakes3 · Post #1038 » by **pancakes3** » Mon Apr 1, 2019 2:40 am

can't we just ban SD for vulgarity and be done with it? i'm sick of reading posts calling for the anal/oral penetration of people he disagrees with.

stilldropin20 · Post #1039 » by **stilldropin20** » Mon Apr 1, 2019 2:45 am

pancakes3 wrote:it's amazing how much mileage trump is getting out of "the Deep State is conspiring against me."

like, if the FISA courts are corrupt, and Obama did illegally surveil political opponents, and Hillary sold out the U.S. with every act she took as secretary of state, then by all means, open cases on all of them. 2 years worth of executive power, and total control of congress. nothing was stopping these investigations.

it feels like arguing with flat earthers.

yes there was...the investigation into trump!!!! Thats what stopped it!! the left would have said trump was obstructing the investigation into trump by ordering investigation into the very investigators doing the investigating.

the same damn people: comey, rosenstein, mccabe, signed the FISA warrants!! they presented them to the Fisa courts!! they defrauded the courts and they were in charge of investigating trump and times or in rosenstien's case, the entire time!!!

Trump was forced to sit on his hands and wait. <<<which was all part of the (deep state/obama/dnc) plan. The deep state and the left was certain that they would find some dirt...anything on trump and he'd be impeached by now. just like every poster on here swore he was a traitor.

you were all wrong. or you knew better and were/are liars. or unwitting co-conspirators spreading lies. take your pick.

stilldropin20 · Post #1040 » by **stilldropin20** » Mon Apr 1, 2019 2:47 am

pancakes3 wrote:can't we just ban SD for vulgarity and be done with it? i'm sick of reading posts calling for the anal/oral penetration of people he disagrees with.

what are you talking about?? this is a lie!! just another lie!