Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI

[dckingsfan]

Now I’m seeing reports saying the wiz are in on Butler and that the wizards are among his preferred destinations. Interesting.

I’m totally for trading Oubre and 1st for a rental. We can always use Sato at multiple positions and Troy Brown Jr. can replace Oubre while on a rookie contract going forward.

Have a fun season and see what happens. It worked for the rockets.

Mahimni/Smith/Oubre for Butler?

Wall/Beal/Butler/Porter/Howard

[DCZards]

Look... every fan of every team in every organized sport thinks that, really, his team is better than their record, right? At least a little better....

But, of course, every team can't be better! For one team to be better, at least one other team has to be worse, right? That's just the way it is.

It's the same with players. Every fan of every team in every organized sport thinks the top player on his team is better than he is recognized to be. It's perfectly natural.

&, since this is an emotional identification by fans, there is really no way to have a sensible discussion about it w/o people getting exercised and very testy.

There's a lot of truth to this. BUT it's also true that some fans will underestimate the top players on their favorite team or ignore their strengths and focus almost solely on their flaws.

[Illmatic12]

I'd go for the rental. What is there to lose? Move Oubre and a lottery protected first. Have a really fun interesting season. Maybe the result is so good that Ted becomes willing to pay the insane cost of the team after an extended Butler. If he walks then we're still a 1st/2nd round exit caliber team.

I would definitely look into renting Butler for a season.. if he leaves he leaves. Put anyone other than Wall, Beal, Porter on the table

A lineup of Wall/Beal/Butler/Porter/Howard could legitimately challenge for the Eastern Conference title.

[80sballboy]

I'd go for the rental. What is there to lose? Move Oubre and a lottery protected first. Have a really fun interesting season. Maybe the result is so good that Ted becomes willing to pay the insane cost of the team after an extended Butler. If he walks then we're still a 1st/2nd round exit caliber team.

I would definitely look into renting Butler for a season.. if he leaves he leaves. Put anyone other than Wall, Beal, Porter on the table

A lineup of Wall/Beal/Butler/Porter/Howard could legitimately challenge for the Eastern Conference title.

Minnesota is looking for a lot more than a one-and-done Oubre and a protected first. At least the Wiz are being mentioned so that's a plus. The last big trade with Minnesota didn't work out too well.

https://www.si.com/nba/2009/06/23/wizards-timberwolvestrade

[payitforward]

Look... every fan of every team in every organized sport thinks that, really, his team is better than their record, right? At least a little better....

But, of course, every team can't be better! For one team to be better, at least one other team has to be worse, right? That's just the way it is.

It's the same with players. Every fan of every team in every organized sport thinks the top player on his team is better than he is recognized to be. It's perfectly natural.

&, since this is an emotional identification by fans, there is really no way to have a sensible discussion about it w/o people getting exercised and very testy.

There's a lot of truth to this. BUT it's also true that some fans will underestimate the top players on their favorite team or ignore their strengths and focus almost solely on their flaws.

Fair point. That does happen from time to time.

Overall, I would say it skews the other way. But, you're still right in the sense that my simply referencing fans tendency to do that doesn't constitute a piece of evidence as to, or even information about, where John should sit on a list of NBA players from absolutely best to absolutely least good.

But, I wasn't offering the point in answer to that question. I was just hoping to help pull the plug on the sequence of heated overstatements.

To tell the truth, I don't think that question is possible to answer except for a single season (or, in a few cases, for a sequence of seasons). But, it's almost never asked that way -- it's asked as it were metaphysically: who is *essentially* the best player.

Even players treat it that way. I.e. I am sure John Wall doesn't think he had one of the top 32 seasons in the league last year! He's way too savvy to think that. He knows he was injured, that he only played 1400 minutes, & that he was by no means at his best, overall, in those minutes. So, when he says "prove it" to the idea of 31 players better than he, it's certain that he's not saying "show me 31 players who had better seasons than I did last year." I'm sure he'd have no problem providing that list on his own!

So, he's talking about something like inherent talent. Who has the most inherent talent. But, you know what? That's a complicated question. It's hard to get the terms of it to stand still so that there's any kind of meaningful answer.

To take an obvious example of my point, we all know that Tim Duncan was one of the best players in the history of the NBA. But, was he one of the best players in the league during his last couple of years? No, he wasn't.

Or, on the other end of the spectrum, how about Anthony Davis? He's great, no doubt, but at 25 I'd say he hasn't peaked. Or -- one of your frequent subjects -- Ben Simmons?

Jayson Tatum had a great rookie year; got to be one of the best rookie years for a wing in a long, long time. & it was also a better year than Andre Iguodala. But, I'm not ready to declare that Tatum is a better player than Iguodala -- even though I feel pretty sure that Tatum will be better next year & Iguodala worse.

Yet, it's exactly that kind of far-reaching question that people think they're answering when they claim that e.g. "a healthy Wall is a top 15 player" or whatever else they claim. It doesn't matter what number you pop in there, it's billshut all the way.

[NatP4]

I'd go for the rental. What is there to lose? Move Oubre and a lottery protected first. Have a really fun interesting season. Maybe the result is so good that Ted becomes willing to pay the insane cost of the team after an extended Butler. If he walks then we're still a 1st/2nd round exit caliber team.

I would definitely look into renting Butler for a season.. if he leaves he leaves. Put anyone other than Wall, Beal, Porter on the table

A lineup of Wall/Beal/Butler/Porter/Howard could legitimately challenge for the Eastern Conference title.

Minnesota is looking for a lot more than a one-and-done Oubre and a protected first. At least the Wiz are being mentioned so that's a plus. The last big trade with Minnesota didn't work out too well.

https://www.si.com/nba/2009/06/23/wizards-timberwolvestrade

They can resign Oubre. He said going to be a RFA. Brown jr+Oubre+1st is a steep price for us. Good get for them.

[NatP4]

I mean, just Wall Beal Porter Sato Howard and Butler is a really good roster. Take what you can get out of Rivers, Morris, Green, and Mahinmi at that point. I think they could really challenge

[payitforward]

I thought Butler indicated that the place he wants to go is Miami. How do we figure into this?

[Error Afflalo]

Now I’m seeing reports saying the wiz are in on Butler and that the wizards are among his preferred destinations. Interesting.

I’m totally for trading Oubre and 1st for a rental. We can always use Sato at multiple positions and Troy Brown Jr. can replace Oubre while on a rookie contract going forward.

Have a fun season and see what happens. It worked for the rockets.

Where are you seeing these reports? Not doubting you, just interested. I'd love for the Wiz to get in the mix here.

[NatP4]

Now I’m seeing reports saying the wiz are in on Butler and that the wizards are among his preferred destinations. Interesting.

I’m totally for trading Oubre and 1st for a rental. We can always use Sato at multiple positions and Troy Brown Jr. can replace Oubre while on a rookie contract going forward.

Have a fun season and see what happens. It worked for the rockets.

Where are you seeing these reports? Not doubting you, just interested. I'd love for the Wiz to get in the mix here.

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

It sounds more like Ernie’s annual pretending to be interested in a star player type reports.

[NatP4]

Read on Twitter

[payitforward]

Now I’m seeing reports saying the wiz are in on Butler and that the wizards are among his preferred destinations...

Where are you seeing these reports? Not doubting you, just interested. I'd love for the Wiz to get in the mix here.

...
It sounds more like Ernie’s annual pretending to be interested in a star player type reports.

The average fan just doesn't understand -- if Ernie let himself get drawn into these last-minute deals just before the season it would play havoc with his ability to plan his vacations.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I think you need to read my trade proposal more closely. Im trading them Rivers, not Mahinmi.
You say they will get plenty of offers... Really...From where???
Who is going to give them a 2019 1st for taking on expiring salary?

I got no one chief. The only teams that would do that are teams above the tax. And it would have to be a pick in the 20's as no team would give up a lotto pick to dump 1 year of salary like that.
So who would...let alone could

Houston, Toronto, GSW, and Boston sure as hell wont do that.
Philly, Pacers, NOP, Minny, Utah, Spurs, Cavs, Nuggets, Lakers, and Bucks are below the tax.

The ONLY teams that are hurting with the tax and have salaries to dump are the Heat, OKC and Portland
The heat dont have any big expiring salary to dump.
OKC cant trade their 2019 pick, nor do they have a big expiring salary to dump
Portland has Leonard, Harkless, and Turner... but they all have 2 years left

Like I said...Where are they getting a 1st from?

Who? Seriously? They're already talking about getting involved as a 3rd team to help work out a Butler trade. They can make multiple trades to end up with more than 1 1st round pick. And there are likely going to be all kinds of opportunities like that throughout the year where 2 teams need another team with cap space to complete a trade. Also, you don't know what moves other teams will make during the year that will affect their lux tax situation. I mean, it's completely absurd to assume there won't be lots of ways Sacramento can use that cap space. And it doesn't matter who you're talking about trading from the Wiz. They're farther away from getting under the lux tax threshold than the cap space Sac has. Trading Rivers would just reduce the lux tax; not eliminate it.

Ruz... you're killing me.
Trade: Yes, Sacramento can "Use their cap space in multiple way". But if they want to get a 1st and not take on salary past this year, then its really us.
Also, the Butler trade is quite random at this point in the year. After this, its probably it.
By the deadline, I see the Raptors, Celtics, Warriors, and Rockets pulling away from the the rest of the league and doubt you'll see anything too drastic.

Tax: Ummm. If we trade Rivers for Mason we are under the cap by about 500k. Any other Min player and we are 300k below.
Meeks is suspended for about 19 games and we get half of that back to the cap (about 400k).

I am and always have been salary-cap-knowledge-averse.

ON THE FACE OF TALENT I WOULD TAKE MASON OUT OF KANSAS OVER RIVERS any day. HE's a a winner. He is a floor general. He's on a cheap deal. DEFINITELY TRADE RIVERS if you can for Mason.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Now I’m seeing reports saying the wiz are in on Butler and that the wizards are among his preferred destinations. Interesting.

I’m totally for trading Oubre and 1st for a rental. We can always use Sato at multiple positions and Troy Brown Jr. can replace Oubre while on a rookie contract going forward.

Have a fun season and see what happens. It worked for the rockets.

Where are you seeing these reports? Not doubting you, just interested. I'd love for the Wiz to get in the mix here.

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

It sounds more like Ernie’s annual pretending to be interested in a star player type reports.

Fear the worst. Ernie will make a move for a veteran that retards the growth of a player like Otto Porter. He's probably going to trade Ian, Porter, AND a first to get Butler. I don't know dick about the cap. Maybe he also sends Morris.

The pick is going for Butler if the Wizards can somehow offload SOME salary.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Now I’m seeing reports saying the wiz are in on Butler and that the wizards are among his preferred destinations. Interesting.

I’m totally for trading Oubre and 1st for a rental. We can always use Sato at multiple positions and Troy Brown Jr. can replace Oubre while on a rookie contract going forward.

Have a fun season and see what happens. It worked for the rockets.

Mahimni/Smith/Oubre for Butler?

Wall/Beal/Butler/Porter/Howard

If that happens, I'm happy in the short run. KO is NOT a star. If traded I can see him becoming a very solid pro along the likes of Trevor Ariza but with more offense.

[youngWizzy]

The Wolves are asking too much for Butler. I heard they asked the sixers for Simmons?? What would piss me off is trading Porter in a deal for Butler.

Regardless, this is simply another case of the Wizards jumping into the mix of things ex. Paul George, Deandre Jordan, we've seen it all.

[doclinkin]

ESPN ranked the 100 players in the league and had Wall at 32.

Gotcha. So, ESPN criminally underrated Wall (again), so Wall stormed into the press conference and jumped on the table and claimed he was the greatest point in the league? Well, I see how that is troublesome. Because what wouldn’t be troublesome is if Wall was asked directly by a reporter about the criminal underrating of him, and he responded that he thought he should be higher on the list. And then the media used it to write another article where they cut Wall’s disclaimers and self-deprivation out, slap a bunch of exclamation points on his statements and write another clickbait article about how the fictional Wall persona they have created is at it again.

You think that at #32 in the league John is "criminally underrated?" Really?

You made no real assertion on the topic I suppose, except to say fans overrate their own favorite players. But I'm curious if you agree with the spot on the list. And if by the end of the year you expect he will rate there. I understand you are trying not to offer a guess, and instead simply like to challenge the notion that anyone should have a strong opinion about it. Still, I'm curious if you think this hypothetical metaphysical pick a qualifier rating is accurate. ESPN predicted. What's your prediction? Or anyone who thinks this is the proper rating.

As for me I have some issues with it. Consider just the guards ahead of him.

Kyrie Irving ranks 20. Alright, Kyrie is a good player. Can score on anybody one on one. His team did fine without him but they did well with him too. However, even in the text at this listing they admit that he's sometimey at best on defense. And he's a good for about 20 games of injury every year. Is he sure to maintain his scoring skill coming back from this most recent injury? Sure. But his poor defense is unlikely to improve as he gets banged up. Why does he get a pass for injury and not Wall. When Wall is dialed in his defense is stifling. Steals, chasedown blocks, long arms to challenge the three, etc. When Uncle Drew is playing defense he's adequate at best.

21 Kyle Lowry. A healthy John Wall smoked Lowry when they were matched in playoffs past. Do we feel like Wall reached his peak and is in the decline? And Lowry has lapped and passed him? Why do we think so? Lowry is another one vulnerable to injury in years past, especially late season. Lowry has years on John, who will decline first?

26 Jrue Holliday? He's a solid player. A functional player. Good plug-in B+ guard in all facets of his game. But no significant mismatch over most opponents. Yes he was bigger and stronger than Portland's guards. In a slow-down post season that meant he was able to impose his will on the smallish slight Dame and CJ McCollum

Speaking of which. Both those guards rank ahead of Wall. Dame, sure, clutch, tough, good outside scoring. If you think Wall has lost a step off his Wall-star year I can see that argument being made. When healthy, Wall and Dame were in that 2nd tier of best point guards in the league. Wall more of a passing point with more dynamic defense when he is on and dialed in, but Dame with late clock late game bail-out skills and steady efficient scoring. Toss up. But CJ? Take Dame off the court and CJ is aiight. Take Beal off the court and Wall is still a mismatch vs the opponents, hard to handle, pushing the action, racking assists.

Kemba Walker. Came on strong. And I wanted to draft him the year he came out. (Figured we could trade down and get him and Faried). But if we knock Wall for late clock late game lack of clutch, check Kemba. And without scoring, what else does he do on court. Decent defender, but he's not a game managing floor general. If he's your floor leader, then why are the Jordainaires always missing the postseason? Is their talent so much more wretched than ours?

And Beal. I can see the argument, he helped carry the squad when Wall went down. Everybody ate. The scouts figured out he is a hazard trying to run the team, all you need to do is pressure him or double him and that ends the Wizards possession. When Beal is out Wall hasn't had that problem. The ball moves: up the court, and to the open man.

So. Criminal neglect I dunno. But I can see Wall eyeballing the list ahead of him and marking the calendar. And I think I'd agree he was slighted. And this is only the guards.

Think of it this way, in an open draft, if all teams were picking a player, really, you would go through the entire list of teams picking once and one team picking twice before Wall would get selected? And they would be right to? I agree with Wall: show me why.

[NatP4]

All of this players were better than Wall in 2017-2018. The list makes perfect sense.

Walls big season in 2016-2017 was an outlier, he’s probably somewhere between his 2016-2017 and 2017-2018. Production

[Dat2U]

Most I'd give up for a rental of Butler is Oubre and the '19 pick. Throw in Rivers & Smith for cap purposes.

C Howard / Mahinmi / Bryant
F Porter / Morris
F Butler / Green / Brown
G Beal /
G Wall / Sato

That's a team that can win 60 with decent health and legimitately challenge for a trip to the Finals.

[Dat2U]

All of this players were better than Wall in 2017-2018. The list makes perfect sense.

Walls big season in 2016-2017 was an outlier, he’s probably somewhere between his 2016-2017 and 2017-2018. Production

Then why is Kawhi ranked so high? That list isn't based on last years production. It based on what experts believe will happen this year.

Clearly theres a connection among haters like yourself and those that dont watch Wall closely that view Wall solely based on his struggles early on last season and view those struggles as the trend going forward as opposed to an injured player who pushed to play despite being limited.

He clearly was a totally different player when he came back from injury despite being less than 100%. The version of Wall I saw at the end of last season is clearly a top 15 player and one of the 5 best players in the East altogether.