Official Trade Thread - Part XXIV

[SUPERBALLMAN]

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/22 ... -As-Passer

Hmm, are they trying to say they want him to shoot less??

[penbeast0]

They are trying to sneak that past him . . . shhhhhhh!

[deneem4]

U have a dominant big man that u want to pass....

So instead of being In the low paint u wan him to be at the high key...
Which would encourage him to shoot midrange if left open...

U wan a marc gasol in andrew bynum body with no zach Randolph...

But the problem is cousins and not the kings???

[payitforward]

Holy backtrack, Batman!

...I don't have a crystal ball, and I don't lean my head back and muse and then come out of my trance saying confidently what's going to happen to a player in two years or whatever. I look at what he's doing and what he's done. That's the most likely guide to his future (in basketball as in life).

Drummond is an absolute monster. He has physical gifts that are unreal. He seems to have a humble and positive attitude, and he seems to be team-oriented. He's only played 1000+ minutes, but they were incredibly productive minutes. Among the best in the league. He keeps playing the way he's played so far, he'll be one of the top players in the league. No backtrack in any of that.

That's total BS, pif. You're a professional double-talker. Saying things like "Drummond is an absolute monster" does not give you the leeway to a reasonable person to then follow up by saying "Uh.... but he's only played 1,000 minutes, so I haven't committed 1 way or the other on him". You're trying to talk out of both sides of your ass, and the words coming out don't smell like roses.

I can't talk out of either side of my ass, no matter how hard I try!

Sorry, I'm not writing about whether I've "committed 1 way or the other" on a player. In fact, I've made it clear that I *can't* do that on a 20 year old who has played 1200 minutes. You want to be critical, go ahead, but what's your point? Wouldn't you be equally critical if I said after 1200 minutes that he's going to be the next Shaq or Moses or whoever?

Of course you would -- and in that case you'd be right! In this case, you are wrong.

Things look great for Drummond. I'm expecting him to be a tremendous NBA player. But I can't "conclude" that. Any more than I could conclude it for Beal. Looks good for Beal; ditto for Drummond.

The closest to "commit" making any sense is to say who you'd want on your team. I've done that. I'd take Drummond over Cousins in a heartbeat. But... as has been mentioned, he isn't likely to be available. Unfortunately.

[payitforward]

U have a dominant big man that u want to pass....

So instead of being In the low paint u wan him to be at the high key...
Which would encourage him to shoot midrange if left open...

U wan a marc gasol in andrew bynum body with no zach Randolph...

But the problem is cousins and not the kings???

Maybe you should read the article, genius? Here' is the sum total of what he says about Cousins:

"I've talked about DeMarcus a lot, but he's so talented. He's a big who can play away from the basket. But I'm going to ask him to play inside as well this year, be a guy we can run our offense through at times, because he can be such a good passer. The challenge for him is to cut down on those three turnovers a game. The luxury we had last year at Golden State, we had two bigs (David Lee and Andrew Bogut) who were not only good passers but willing passers. My hope is we get to that at some point."

Got that? Or would it be easier if some of the words were misspelled?

[deneem4]

U have a dominant big man that u want to pass....

So instead of being In the low paint u wan him to be at the high key...
Which would encourage him to shoot midrange if left open...

U wan a marc gasol in andrew bynum body with no zach Randolph...

But the problem is cousins and not the kings???

Maybe you should read the article, genius? Here' is the sum total of what he says about Cousins:

"I've talked about DeMarcus a lot, but he's so talented. He's a big who can play away from the basket. But I'm going to ask him to play inside as well this year, be a guy we can run our offense through at times, because he can be such a good passer. The challenge for him is to cut down on those three turnovers a game. The luxury we had last year at Golden State, we had two bigs (David Lee and Andrew Bogut) who were not only good passers but willing passers. My hope is we get to that at some point."



Got that? Or would it be easier if some of the words were misspelled?

What offense has a big man tht passes from the paint????...please explain...how do u run an offense through a big men while hes I the paint and expects him to pass

[Wizardspride]

U have a dominant big man that u want to pass....

So instead of being In the low paint u wan him to be at the high key...
Which would encourage him to shoot midrange if left open...

U wan a marc gasol in andrew bynum body with no zach Randolph...

But the problem is cousins and not the kings???

Maybe you should read the article, genius? Here' is the sum total of what he says about Cousins:

"I've talked about DeMarcus a lot, but he's so talented. He's a big who can play away from the basket. But I'm going to ask him to play inside as well this year, be a guy we can run our offense through at times, because he can be such a good passer. The challenge for him is to cut down on those three turnovers a game. The luxury we had last year at Golden State, we had two bigs (David Lee and Andrew Bogut) who were not only good passers but willing passers. My hope is we get to that at some point."



Got that? Or would it be easier if some of the words were misspelled?

What offense has a big man tht passes from the paint????...please explain...how do u run an offense through a big men while hes I the paint and expects him to pass

Ummm.... basically every offense does this.

[penbeast0]

No Moses Malone love? Of course one year he had a WS/48 of .248 - yikes. Drummond's .172 isn't too bad though.

.248 is not a "ws48" figure -- maybe you mean his wp48? But actually Moses had much higher wp48 numbers than that. And Drummond's wp48 as a rookie was .313 -- only LeBron, CP and Durant did better.

As great a rookie year as Drummond had, Malone's was even better -- and he played @3400 minutes! Note, however, that he was 23 when his rookie season began. Drummond was 19.

Moses had an absolutely great career. He was a hall of fame player, obviously. Not to mention he played until he was almost 40!

Where are you getting your facts? Moses was a 19 year old rookie with UTAH in the ABA (playing sort of small forward since they had big men and nothing on the wing). His WS/48 were .153. When the ABA folded he became a 21 year old NBA rookie playing 82 games and 2506 minutes (according to BBR-com) with a WS of .167. At 23, he did play over 3500 minutes but he was in his 5th professional year (2 cut in half roughly with injuries) and his WS/48 still was "only" .200. He hit his peak WS/48 of .248 at age 27 in his 9th professional year (2nd highest year .218) . . . why are you even bringing up some of this stuff; it's comparing apples to oranges.

[payitforward]

No Moses Malone love? Of course one year he had a WS/48 of .248 - yikes. Drummond's .172 isn't too bad though.

.248 is not a "ws48" figure -- maybe you mean his wp48? But actually Moses had much higher wp48 numbers than that. And Drummond's wp48 as a rookie was .313 -- only LeBron, CP and Durant did better.

As great a rookie year as Drummond had, Malone's was even better -- and he played @3400 minutes! Note, however, that he was 23 when his rookie season began. Drummond was 19.

Moses had an absolutely great career. He was a hall of fame player, obviously. Not to mention he played until he was almost 40!

Where are you getting your facts? Moses was a 19 year old rookie with UTAH in the ABA (playing sort of small forward since they had big men and nothing on the wing). His WS/48 were .153. When the ABA folded he became a 21 year old NBA rookie playing 82 games and 2506 minutes (according to BBR-com) with a WS of .167. At 23, he did play over 3500 minutes but he was in his 5th professional year (2 cut in half roughly with injuries) and his WS/48 still was "only" .200. He hit his peak WS/48 of .248 at age 27 in his 9th professional year (2nd highest year .218) . . . why are you even bringing up some of this stuff; it's comparing apples to oranges.

Oooops, I forgot about the ABA.

Hey, if we couldn't compare apples to oranges, 80% of the posts here would be pointless. Haven't you ever tried a pippin orange? Shoots like a Valencia but w/ moves like a Golden Delicious....

[deneem4]

Maybe you should read the article, genius? Here' is the sum total of what he says about Cousins:

"I've talked about DeMarcus a lot, but he's so talented. He's a big who can play away from the basket. But I'm going to ask him to play inside as well this year, be a guy we can run our offense through at times, because he can be such a good passer. The challenge for him is to cut down on those three turnovers a game. The luxury we had last year at Golden State, we had two bigs (David Lee and Andrew Bogut) who were not only good passers but willing passers. My hope is we get to that at some point."



Got that? Or would it be easier if some of the words were misspelled?

What offense has a big man tht passes from the paint????...please explain...how do u run an offense through a big men while hes I the paint and expects him to pass

Ummm.... basically every offense does this.

Ummmmm..no...please giv example...u mean to tell me theres team tht encourage players to pass from the high % scoring area?

[Wizardspride]

What offense has a big man tht passes from the paint????...please explain...how do u run an offense through a big men while hes I the paint and expects him to pass

Ummm.... basically every offense does this.

Ummmmm..no...please giv example...u mean to tell me theres team tht encourage players to pass from the high % scoring area?

You need to go back and read it closely.

When they're talking about running the offense through Cousins in the paint all they are saying is that dumping the ball inside will enable the team to get higher quality shots..either when Cousins scores himself or passes it out.

Basketball 101.

[payitforward]

Ummm.... basically every offense does this.

Ummmmm..no...please giv example...u mean to tell me theres team tht encourage players to pass from the high % scoring area?

You need to go back and read it closely.

When they're talking about running the offense through Cousins in the paint all they are saying is that dumping the ball inside will enable the team to get higher quality shots..either when Cousins scores himself or passes it out.

Basketball 101.

Exactly. Cousins is big enough and strong enough that he'll draw a double team, w/ the defense rotating further to accommodate that. Someone will be open, either cutting to the basket or for a corner three or... something good. And, because the coach thinks Cousins is a good passer, he's expecting him to take advantage of the situation that emerges. Goes w/o saying that the more effective that is, the more difficult it becomes to double him -- making him more effective posting up.

Nothing complicated or unusual about this, as Wizardspride points out.

[stevemcqueen1]

We run offense through Nene on the block and in the high post. It is not uncommon to do it with a big man with passing skills.

Especially when your guards are mediocre facilitators like ours were before Wall got back. And Sacramento's are.

Marc Gasol and Noah run offense from the top of the key. Big men who can pass are excellent secondary facilitators in today's league.

Cousins has face up skills. He's actually a remarkable ball handler for a big man, something you haven't typically seen from him in games to this point. I remember reading about how Kevin Durant was blown away by his ball handling skills when he worked out with him. And I remember seeing videos of Cousins confidently carrying the ball up court and throwing alley oops from the perimeter and driving the lane after using dribble moves to get by defenders. It was on rare occasions, but the skill set is lurking there.

He's also an excellent outlet passer. My guess is Sacramento will try and have him trigger fastbreaks after rebounds as much as possible. McLemore is a jet.

I took the meaning of "we're going to run offense through Cousins" to be more than just having him pass out of doubles and traps on the low block. I think it means they'll give him the ball at the top of the key and let him pass like Gasol/Noah. And I think he'll even have freedom to drive if it's there. He's slow and doesn't have a first step, but he's big and scary to try and stay in front of in lieu of explosiveness. And he'd be matched up with the opposing big man, so he'd be dragging the guy far out of his comfort zone defensively. The primary benefit for the Kings is the spacing they could achieve by unpacking the paint.

Kings are going to have to lean on his offensive creativity because of the flaws in their roster. Thomas is a slasher but not much of a passer, Thornton can't facilitate, and Ben McLemore is a pure catch and shoot type.

[stevemcqueen1]

Leaning too heavily on Cousins as a passer is a recipe for offensive inefficiency though.

At his heart, Cousins is a finisher. You need to get him the ball in his scoring spots where doesn't have to create all of his own looks. Let that size and strength and touch go to work for you. He-s a true big man--his creative ability should be a secondary weapon. Have him catch and shoot only from his favorite spots on the pick and fade and not shoot out of rhythm jumpers at the beginning of possessions. Have him face up and drive only when he's defended one on one. Have him work with his back to the basket against single defenders. Use him as the PnR finisher he was born to be. He can score over doubled but not with efficiency over time. He drifts too much towards the perimeter game when he's constantly doubled.

He's an undisciplined player. He, more than most, needs perimeter shooters and a good PG that makes things happen for his teammates with constant pressure--John Wall. John unlocks Cousins's scoring potential. Cousins was so much more of an inside scorer at Kentucky with John where he just regularly got the ball close to the basket with a good look.

[stevemcqueen1]

Cousins has a trail game too and he's a good transition finisher that can get past multiple defenders to the rim by utilizing these spins and eurosteps uncommon for players his size. Another reason why I like his offensive skill set as a fit for us.

I like that, combined with his knack for outlet passing, he's useful for fast breaks in multiple ways.

And assuming Porter pans out, I like the floor spacing you could achieve in line ups with him, Beal, and Porter. That'd be a really dangerous transition offense first and foremost but they'd have the set shooters and the PG and the natural passers to play in the half court too.

His rebounding also fills a big gap for us since we really don't have a gritty rebounder aside from Okafor and Booker.

I'd be fully on board with picking him up if it weren't for his personality. He's combustible. Plays with passion but can't always control it and his prickliness has caused problems and been counterproductive for coaches in the past.

We've gone to a lot of trouble to finally make the locker room as stable and low maintenance as possible. You've got to go into a Cousins acquisition with your eyes open to how he can destabilize your team.

[deneem4]

When u speak on a player speak on the team...look at the kings franchise, they have been **** up since they moved tyrese evans from pg...some players jus dont want to be part of a team...

[NBA Fiend]

I know there is already a trade thread but this looks inevitable. So I will start off with this Ariza + unwanted contract + top 15 protected pick for Gortat/(whomever other than Dragic,Bledsoe,Goodwin or Len). I would like to hear what you consider a fair trade. The basis for the trade.

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=lz2mbjr

[fugop]

I wonder if Charlotte would consider a trade of Biyombo for Vesely. Biyombo has been an impressive bust, but at least he's a bust at center. Vesely could theoretically play next to Jefferson.

[dangermouse]

What about just straight up Ariza + 1st rnd pick (lotto prot) for Gortat?

With Okafor going down, Gortat would really help us make the playoffs, so the Suns would definitely get that pick.

[johnnystamos]

These trade ideas undervalue Gortat fairly significantly. If the Suns were willing to trade him for such packages, they most likely would have already. A more realistic deal would have the pick have weaker protection, somewhere from 8-12, and also either include one of the Wizards' younger players or else have the Wizards take on Channing Frye's salary for next year by trading Okafor instead of Ariza. Or both of those things. Gortat is quite a good center, top 10-15 in the league. But I agree that he is a good target for the Wizards, he would be a good fit and they have enough assets to get him without weakening the team. A bit part of whether they'd be willing to trade for him is whether they'd be willing to re-sign him long term next summer to a fairly big contract, which I think would be a good move.