Political Roundtable Part XII

[tontoz]

Now you are just being an idiot. Where exactly did i say it is perfectly fine for them to be harassed if they stand out? You are just making **** up to pretend you are making sense. Seriously your SJW mindset is a big reason why Trump is in the White House right now.

I live in Virginia, so my peacebuilder mindset is in fact not responsible. Comey and Putin, for instance are far more responsible. History will bear this out.

Calling the cops is absolutely one solution to being harassed, especially if it is someone they know. Obviously not all cops are great but Muslim women are not really at risk from cops in the same way black men are. Pepper spray is another solution, as is dressing in a way not to call attention to their religion.

I see absolutely no solutions coming from you other than pie in the sky nonsense.If you have an idea that could have prevented that woman from getting beat up at the airport then please share. I won't hold my breath.

Yeah, nonviolent civil resistance. I mentioned this before. Call it pie in the sky if you will, but this is what you do to authoritarian regimes. It works, and has since Gandhi first initiated it, and Martin Luther King and others followed. This is the solution.

The solution is not banning Muslims, or inflaming hatred from the bully pulpit. Nor is it flat out lies or ignorance as to the cause. You and those like you have made a caricature of 1.6 billion people on earth. THAT is idiotic. Truly.

Maybe you could consider Hooked on Phonics so you can learn how to read. I never said that it was ok to harass someone wearing a hijab. You just made that up so you could pretend you are making sense, or you are just a blithering idiot.

Neither Ghandi nor nonviolent civil resistance would have stopped that woman from getting beat up at the airport. A change of clothes or pepper spray would have.

[sfam]

Nope. I don't go strolling down the road playing "Guess the god"

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Exactly. So when a Muslim woman gets harassed by a crazy Muslim hating stranger, like what happened at the airport when a man beat up a woman, Muslims have to ask themselves if it is really a good idea to advertise their religion in public given the current climate.

Obviously the guy will be locked up but that doesn't make the bruises feel any better.

They can practice their religion without walking around with an "I'm a Muslim" sign around their necks, especially at an airport of all places. Might as well put a target on their backs. At the very least they should consider carrying pepper spray.

The obvious and sad corollary to this is the number of hindu men regularly getting harassed right now because they "look" Muslim. They do if you consider Indians and Pakistani are largely the same genetic stock - just one group is Hindu and the other Muslim (We could say the same thing about those living in Israel and those in Palestine, but I digress).

Again, sorry to say, have had conversations since the election from a number of guys from India who are getting harassed, and who also now are far far more aware of their surroundings. So its not just Muslim women, but the harassment of men has problems for the reasons you cite - its hard to guess the god! One solution is to just harass foreign looking folk, which is in fact what is happening now.

[tontoz]

Nope. I don't go strolling down the road playing "Guess the god"

Sent from my ASUS_Z01BDC using Tapatalk

Exactly. So when a Muslim woman gets harassed by a crazy Muslim hating stranger, like what happened at the airport when a man beat up a woman, Muslims have to ask themselves if it is really a good idea to advertise their religion in public given the current climate.

Obviously the guy will be locked up but that doesn't make the bruises feel any better.

They can practice their religion without walking around with an "I'm a Muslim" sign around their necks, especially at an airport of all places. Might as well put a target on their backs. At the very least they should consider carrying pepper spray.

The obvious and sad corollary to this is the number of hindu men regularly getting harassed right now because they "look" Muslim. They do if you consider Indians and Pakistani are largely the same genetic stock - just one group is Hindu and the other Muslim (We could say the same thing about those living in Israel and those in Palestine, but I digress).

Again, sorry to say, have had conversations since the election from a number of guys from India who are getting harassed, and who also now are far far more aware of their surroundings. So its not just Muslim women, but the harassment of men has problems for the reasons you cite - its hard to guess the god! One solution is to just harass foreign looking folk, which is in fact what is happening now.

Just tell them the solution is non violent civil resistance. Be sure to let us know how they respond.

Women can't fight back much. Men can, and if they aren't fighters then pepper spray is a much quicker solution than non-violent marches.

I am well aware that the KKK types feel emboldened right now, and some of them are nuts/violent. That is why i would advise Muslims not to wear religious garb in public. The risk of being a victim of a hate crime is much higher now than it has been in recent memory and it would be stupid of them not to take precautions.

I would advise the Hindus to try a different tactic. Just wear their swastikas. The KKK types will love that

[sfam]

You approach the problem as "You ungrateful wretches, dress properly or go back to Saudi Arabia."

As opposed to addressing the problem of a mindset that oppresses people for their beliefs. You think an American women wearing a hijab is oppressed? You ignorant little man.

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What exactly do you propose to prevent Muslims from being harassed right now?

You and Jwiz have been going back and forth, I don't agree with all your points, but in a lot of ways you're right. I'm half Persian, my mom came here when she was 2. Islam has totally ruined Iran, I'm sure you're familiar with the Iranian revolution. Before the revolution, Iran was a fairly progressive, cosmopolitan country. Women had rights. They could go to college, dress as they like, etc.
What sfam and Jwiz don't recognize, is these women who wear the hijab, or whatever, wear it, because they've been essentially brainwashed since birth, saying, you must wear this, it's the law, and allah with smite you if you show any skin, or any hair in Iran.
Even if they come here, they have the same views. They think it's a sin against allah to not wear the hijab.
Equating it to wearing a cross necklace is "wee tahded". Christians aren't persecuted for not wearing a cross.

That being said, I would never say that they should be forced to dress differently. If they want to oppress themselves, that's their choice.

Apologies, I thought the cross example was farcically obvious as untrue. Which was my point about Tontoz's statement.

Regarding Hijab use, this is different in every country.I've actually had the luck of working in a place (US Institute of Peace) with Muslim women from most of these countries, so I have had conversations with them about this. It is simply not the case that Muslim Americans wear the hijab because they feel they will be smited by God, at least none that I've talked to. They Do wear it for comfort and a personal feeling of protection -whether or not its brainwashing, its clearly cultural. Depending on the context, it really can be controlling - I just see none of that in the US.

Really obvious on the controlling, try walking around in Iraq, or Dubai, or wherever around there. Its REALLY hot! Men wear white outfits, women wear black - try walking outside in that for any length of time. This is far more controlling than the Hijab. There is clearly control of women built into many but not all Muslim societies - Indonesia is completely different, for instance (There is actually horrific control of women in nonmuslim societies as well). You go to a place like Cairo, Egypt, you see some women wearing european style clothes, most women wearing a hijab, and a few others wearing the full burka, covering from head to toe.

Iran has really been destroyed since the Iranian Revolution, agree with that. And I really wish the green revolution was more successful.

[sfam]

Now you are just being an idiot. Where exactly did i say it is perfectly fine for them to be harassed if they stand out? You are just making **** up to pretend you are making sense. Seriously your SJW mindset is a big reason why Trump is in the White House right now.

I live in Virginia, so my peacebuilder mindset is in fact not responsible. Comey and Putin, for instance are far more responsible. History will bear this out.

Calling the cops is absolutely one solution to being harassed, especially if it is someone they know. Obviously not all cops are great but Muslim women are not really at risk from cops in the same way black men are. Pepper spray is another solution, as is dressing in a way not to call attention to their religion.

I see absolutely no solutions coming from you other than pie in the sky nonsense.If you have an idea that could have prevented that woman from getting beat up at the airport then please share. I won't hold my breath.

Yeah, nonviolent civil resistance. I mentioned this before. Call it pie in the sky if you will, but this is what you do to authoritarian regimes. It works, and has since Gandhi first initiated it, and Martin Luther King and others followed. This is the solution.

The solution is not banning Muslims, or inflaming hatred from the bully pulpit. Nor is it flat out lies or ignorance as to the cause. You and those like you have made a caricature of 1.6 billion people on earth. THAT is idiotic. Truly.

Maybe you could consider Hooked on Phonics so you can learn how to read. I never said that it was ok to harass someone wearing a hijab. You just made that up so you could pretend you are making sense, or you are just a blithering idiot.

Neither Ghandi nor nonviolent civil resistance would have stopped that woman from getting beat up at the airport. A change of clothes or pepper spray would have.

The question I'm addressing is the larger set of events, not the individual instance at an airport. Arming muslims is really not the solution I would go toward for really obvious reasons. Ethnics being armed in the face of angry white folk really never ends well here.

And telling Muslim American women to carry pepper spray for when white men accost them is crazy. I get it if they get off late on a shift, but this is like a really bad idea. Almost as bad as open carry, guns in schools to prevent bear attacks and all the rest.

[sfam]

Exactly. So when a Muslim woman gets harassed by a crazy Muslim hating stranger, like what happened at the airport when a man beat up a woman, Muslims have to ask themselves if it is really a good idea to advertise their religion in public given the current climate.

Obviously the guy will be locked up but that doesn't make the bruises feel any better.

They can practice their religion without walking around with an "I'm a Muslim" sign around their necks, especially at an airport of all places. Might as well put a target on their backs. At the very least they should consider carrying pepper spray.

The obvious and sad corollary to this is the number of hindu men regularly getting harassed right now because they "look" Muslim. They do if you consider Indians and Pakistani are largely the same genetic stock - just one group is Hindu and the other Muslim (We could say the same thing about those living in Israel and those in Palestine, but I digress).

Again, sorry to say, have had conversations since the election from a number of guys from India who are getting harassed, and who also now are far far more aware of their surroundings. So its not just Muslim women, but the harassment of men has problems for the reasons you cite - its hard to guess the god! One solution is to just harass foreign looking folk, which is in fact what is happening now.

Just tell them the solution is non violent civil resistance. Be sure to let us know how they respond.

Women can't fight back much. Men can, and if they aren't fighters then pepper spray is a much quicker solution than non-violent marches.

I am well aware that the KKK types feel emboldened right now, and some of them are nuts/violent. That is why i would advise Muslims not to wear religious garb in public. The risk of being a victim of a hate crime is much higher now than it has been in recent memory and it would be stupid of them not to take precautions.

I would advise the Hindus to try a different tactic. Just wear their swastikas. The KKK types will love that

Yeah, wrong answer. I'm really thrilled Muslim women are not planning to submit to the accosting and remove their wear. They are organizing, and they have lots of help.

The answer is to get the KKK types to put their racism back in the box. Its just not OK to show it how they are right now. They need to put those behaviors back in the closet. Clearly the President isn't planning to help with this, hence the need for nonviolent civil resistance.

[DCZards]

You approach the problem as "You ungrateful wretches, dress properly or go back to Saudi Arabia."

As opposed to addressing the problem of a mindset that oppresses people for their beliefs. You think an American women wearing a hijab is oppressed? You ignorant little man.

Sent from my ASUS_Z01BDC using Tapatalk

What exactly do you propose to prevent Muslims from being harassed right now?

How about we arrest and prosecute those who harass people simply because of how they worship and/or what they wear. They're the bad guys and a threat to civil society...not a woman wearing a hijab.

[montestewart]

Trump's running out of US billionaires to run the government. He might have to nominate some foreign billionaires.

[verbal8]

I'm home schooling my kids. They are reading The Art of The Deal as soon as they can read.

You can have them write the sequel as soon as they can write. Or actually you don't have to wait that long, just hire a good ghost writer.

[Kanyewest]

I'm saying it is economic insanity to import people who are likely to be a net negative economically. There are other reasons not to admit various immigrant groups that are unrelated to the economic argument. Those arguments are weaker IMO, but they have some merit.

I don't any see any merit on curtailing legal immigration from people who are educated to be frank. For example, the richest ethnic group by far in the country are Indian Americans. They are the most educated, have stable families, and are far more likely to have stable families that do not drain the social safety net. Seems to me that they fit the classic conservative mantra of hard work and family values.

Indian Americans are probably the best immigrant group of all. Strong families. Good education. No language barrier. No apparent religious or cultural incompatibility. They seem to assimilate into American culture rapidly too. 2nd generation Indian immigrants seem to completely and effortlessly intermingle with "native" Americans socially.

FYI, a lot of Indian Americans are Muslims.

[Kanyewest]

Also, many Indians are muslim. Keep that in mind too.

Aren't Hindus ~ 80 percent of the population? I think France has ~ 10 percent of the population that is Muslim.

I think that the policy just isn't coherent.

10% of the Indian American population is Muslim. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Americans

[verbal8]

If they are genuinely afraid of being harassed by strangers during this Trump's mania they can change their clothes to avoid it completely, or they can call the cops and report it. They have options here that they don't have in Saudi Arabia.

Harassing innocent Muslim women because of what they are wearing doesn't seem like supposedly "Making America Great Again". Suppose all the Muslim women were to assimilate their clothing(or they all get deported), who is next? Is it Sikhs and others who wear turbans? Is it women wearing Saris?

[Induveca]

Sfam on one hand you say people have made a caricature of 1.6 billion muslims, then repeatedly blame "white people".

There are roughly 1.5 billion caucasians in the world, how are you not being a complete hypocrite?

[tontoz]

Yeah, wrong answer. I'm really thrilled Muslim women are not planning to submit to the accosting and remove their wear. They are organizing, and they have lots of help.

The answer is to get the KKK types to put their racism back in the box. Its just not OK to show it how they are right now. They need to put those behaviors back in the closet. Clearly the President isn't planning to help with this, hence the need for nonviolent civil resistance.

This country has never been a fairy tail utopia of racial/ethnic harmony and it certainly isn't going to be any time soon. Sorry to burst your bubble. The reality is that racists have never been in a box. They are just more active right now and trying to reason with them is completely pointless. If they were open to reason then they wouldn't be racists in the first place.

[tontoz]

If they are genuinely afraid of being harassed by strangers during this Trump's mania they can change their clothes to avoid it completely, or they can call the cops and report it. They have options here that they don't have in Saudi Arabia.

Harassing innocent Muslim women because of what they are wearing doesn't seem like supposedly "Making America Great Again". Suppose all the Muslim women were to assimilate their clothing(or they all get deported), who is next? Is it Sikhs and others who wear turbans? Is it women wearing Saris?

Thanks Captain Obvious. Personally i think Trump is a crazy opportunist who courted the white supremacist types to get elected.

I never said anything about deporting Muslims who didn't dress a certain. I said they should consider changing their clothes if they are worried about being the victim of a hate crime.

[sfam]

Sfam on one hand you say people have made a caricature of 1.6 billion muslims, then repeatedly blame "white people".

There are roughly 1.5 billion caucasians in the world, how are you not being a complete hypocrite?

Hmm, not really sure I understand this statement. I'm actually a white people. If you're saying I am blaming white people in the US for harassing and intimidating muslims, then yes, I'm guilty as charged. If you inferred I meant "all white" people, I'm not sure what to say about that.

By the way, I'm guessing most are probably confusing the term "Arab" with the term "Muslim". They are different. Arab is a cultural and language grouping. Most Arabs are Muslim, but not most Muslims are Arab. Indonesians are not Arab. The Kurds, who's society was destroyed by the British empire, dividing them between Turkey, Syria and Iraq, are not Muslim. Their women carry guns and shoot people. They wear whatever they want. Walk around Erbil, the future capital of Kurdistan, and you get a European-Turkish vibe.

It is a very fair statement to say that across the Arab world, women are treated pretty poorly on the full range of issues. Worse in some countries than others. It is simply not a fair statement to say all Muslim women are treated poorly. It just isn't factual. More to the point, the way to change those societies is with interaction and exchange. Dialog and debate,including relationship to religious traditions. Opening up the civil space. Advocacy, but in a factual way that can resonate. This is how you affect women's rights in those societies.

[tontoz]

You approach the problem as "You ungrateful wretches, dress properly or go back to Saudi Arabia."

As opposed to addressing the problem of a mindset that oppresses people for their beliefs. You think an American women wearing a hijab is oppressed? You ignorant little man.

Sent from my ASUS_Z01BDC using Tapatalk

What exactly do you propose to prevent Muslims from being harassed right now?

How about we arrest and prosecute those who harass people simply because of how they worship and/or what they wear. They're the bad guys and a threat to civil society...not a woman wearing a hijab.

I already suggested calling the cops. Here was sfam's response:

Call the cops? Seriously? That's the solution to rampant harassment and attacks? You really are missing context here. Tell me, how many cops do you think hold similar views as you? There's actually lots of nonwhites who don't always look at cops or the FBI as the good guys. More to the point, you just said its perfectly fine for them to be harassed if they stand out.

As I was told this morning by a Muslim American activist organizing local chapters, "We thought it was bad after 9/11, but that was nothing like this..."

Maybe i should step aside and let you two argue with each other.

[sfam]

Yeah, wrong answer. I'm really thrilled Muslim women are not planning to submit to the accosting and remove their wear. They are organizing, and they have lots of help.

The answer is to get the KKK types to put their racism back in the box. Its just not OK to show it how they are right now. They need to put those behaviors back in the closet. Clearly the President isn't planning to help with this, hence the need for nonviolent civil resistance.

This country has never been a fairy tail utopia of racial/ethnic harmony and it certainly isn't going to be any time soon. Sorry to burst your bubble. The reality is that racists have never been in a box. They are just more active right now and trying to reason with them is completely pointless. If they were open to reason then they wouldn't be racists in the first place.

Well, again, the reason you do nonviolent civil resistance is specifically because it has never been a fairy tail utopia. Advocacy for your rights is as American as you can be.

But in all seriousness, the racists really were in the box lots more than we realized. We really do owe them a debt. And they need to go back in, because the tone, which can be measured in social media and news conversation, has changed dramatically.

[tontoz]

Yeah, wrong answer. I'm really thrilled Muslim women are not planning to submit to the accosting and remove their wear. They are organizing, and they have lots of help.

The answer is to get the KKK types to put their racism back in the box. Its just not OK to show it how they are right now. They need to put those behaviors back in the closet. Clearly the President isn't planning to help with this, hence the need for nonviolent civil resistance.

This country has never been a fairy tail utopia of racial/ethnic harmony and it certainly isn't going to be any time soon. Sorry to burst your bubble. The reality is that racists have never been in a box. They are just more active right now and trying to reason with them is completely pointless. If they were open to reason then they wouldn't be racists in the first place.

Well, again, the reason you do nonviolent civil resistance is specifically because it has never been a fairy tail utopia. Advocacy for your rights is as American as you can be.

But in all seriousness, the racists really were in the box lots more than we realized. We really do owe them a debt. And they need to go back in, because the tone, which can be measured in social media and news conversation, has changed dramatically.

I have known a lot of blacks over the years (and a few racists) and they would be quick to tell you that the racists have never been in a box. That is just your delusion. The racists are just targeting a different group now and have been emboldened by Trump's victory.

[sfam]

What exactly do you propose to prevent Muslims from being harassed right now?

How about we arrest and prosecute those who harass people simply because of how they worship and/or what they wear. They're the bad guys and a threat to civil society...not a woman wearing a hijab.

I already suggested calling the cops. Here was sfam's response:

Call the cops? Seriously? That's the solution to rampant harassment and attacks? You really are missing context here. Tell me, how many cops do you think hold similar views as you? There's actually lots of nonwhites who don't always look at cops or the FBI as the good guys. More to the point, you just said its perfectly fine for them to be harassed if they stand out.

As I was told this morning by a Muslim American activist organizing local chapters, "We thought it was bad after 9/11, but that was nothing like this..."

Maybe i should step aside and let you two argue with each other.

Yeah, sure. Agreed. But so what. The police aren't gonna solve this any more than they can solve inter-racial tensions. That's not their job. This is about changing perceptions, changing beliefs, and bridging understanding. And codifying in law rights and penalties for violating those rights, and yeah, making sure those are enforced.