Political Roundtable Part XVI

[Zonkerbl]

I'm not neglecting this thread because it's too shouty or whatever, I'm just feeling too lazy to argue about anything. If you were wondering. Where I was, I mean.

I got a scotch advent calendar for xmas! Whee!

And... true or bs?

http://luxlibertas.com/to-spur-homeownership-stop-subsidizing-it/

Hm, some interesting thoughts here.

Yes, the entire economics profession recognizes that the mortgage subsidy is distortionary and should be eliminated. None of us have actually thought through what exactly what would happen if we eliminated it because we thought it politically impossible.

Right off the top of my head, the tendency for home owners to prefer detached homes has probably lead to suburban sprawl. Having more renters means more urban density, which on net tends to be a more efficient way to organize cities.

[Zonkerbl]

Interesting that sexual predators on both sides of the aisle get a pass. I truly don't understand this... I guess you look at Trump supporting Moore and say it is just an evil guy supporting an evil guy.

But it has been endemic for quite some time on both sides of the aisle and in business and entertainment. And it is still political - each tribe turns their head

Yeah I'm not sure it's fair to point fingers at pre-Weinstein sexual predators. Both sides of the aisle were giving them a blind eye.

Rachel Maddow made some very convincing arguments why Bill Clinton should have resigned and, for what it's worth, I've changed my mind about him.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/2/9/10951090/rachel-maddow-ezra-klein

The difference is Democrats have changed their behavior for the better - even Al Franken is going to resign, apparently - and Republicans have not. Republicans have more to lose of course, but that just explains their behavior, it doesn't excuse it.

[Pointgod]

Interesting that sexual predators on both sides of the aisle get a pass. I truly don't understand this... I guess you look at Trump supporting Moore and say it is just an evil guy supporting an evil guy.

But it has been endemic for quite some time on both sides of the aisle and in business and entertainment. And it is still political - each tribe turns their head

I’m going to call you out on this being not being accurate. I can give you numerous examples of Democrats holding other Democrats to standards and don’t even use Clinton as an example when that was 20 years ago in a different social and technological climate.

Conyers steppped down. Numerous Democrats have called Al Fraken to step down. Remember Anthony Weiner? He was pressured to step down after a sexting scandal. He didn’t have an affair and he didn’t sexual assault anyone but was still held up to a higher standard.

Meanwhile we know a Republican congressman Blake Farentold was accused of sexual harassment and used the same payout fund as Conyers yet Paul Ryan won’t call for the Republican to step down while he was quick to call for Conyers To Step down. The Republican party supported and elected the known sexual predator Donald Trump. They are now fully supporting the known child predator Roy Moore. And it’s not because they are inherently evil but given the choice between doing the right thing and power/party, they will always choose the latter. So yeah Republicans are great if you want taxes cut, but you can’t vote for them in order to claim some moral position.

Let’s be clear politics haven’t turned tribal, right wing politics have become tribal. The right has used the backlash against the first black President to gain political capital. They questioned his birthplace, refused to compromise and put party over country. I’ll give you an example of just how far right wing politics have fallen. Look what a real President had to say about David Duke’s Governor run:

The President said, "I have got to be careful, because I don't want to tell the voters of Louisiana how to cast their ballot."

Yet he said: "When someone has a long record, an ugly record of racism and of bigotry, that record simply cannot be erased by the glib rhetoric of a political campaign. So I believe David Duke is an insincere charlatan. I believe he's attempting to hoodwink the voters of Louisiana, I believe he should be rejected for what he is and what he stands for."

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/11/07/us/the-1991-election-louisiana-bush-denounces-duke-as-racist-and-charlatan.html

Compare the reaction of President Bush and both state and national Republican Party to Donald Trump and the RNCs support of Roy Moore. So yeah Democrats haven’t been good on the issue but they have shown the willingness to work to a higher standard while Republicans have demonstrated outright hypocrisy and lowered the bar.

[Zonkerbl]

I never expected the Republican party to fall so far, so fast. It has been truly horrifying to watch.

[stilldropin20]

Interesting that sexual predators on both sides of the aisle get a pass. I truly don't understand this... I guess you look at Trump supporting Moore and say it is just an evil guy supporting an evil guy.

But it has been endemic for quite some time on both sides of the aisle and in business and entertainment. And it is still political - each tribe turns their head

I’m going to call you out on this being not being accurate. I can give you numerous examples of Democrats holding other Democrats to standards and don’t even use Clinton as an example when that was 20 years ago in a different social and technological climate.

Conyers steppped down. Numerous Democrats have called Al Fraken to step down. Remember Anthony Weiner? He was pressured to step down after a sexting scandal. He didn’t have an affair and he didn’t sexual assault anyone but was still held up to a higher standard.

Meanwhile we know a Republican congressman Blake Farentold was accused of sexual harassment and used the same payout fund as Conyers yet Paul Ryan won’t call for the Republican to step down while he was quick to call for Conyers To Step down. The Republican party supported and elected the known sexual predator Donald Trump. They are now fully supporting the known child predator Roy Moore. And it’s not because they are inherently evil but given the choice between doing the right thing and power/party, they will always choose the latter. So yeah Republicans are great if you want taxes cut, but you can’t vote for them in order to claim some moral position.

Let’s be clear politics haven’t turned tribal, right wing politics have become tribal. The right has used the backlash against the first black President to gain political capital. They questioned his birthplace, refused to compromise and put party over country. I’ll give you an example of just how far right wing politics have fallen. Look what a real President had to say about David Duke’s Governor run:

The President said, "I have got to be careful, because I don't want to tell the voters of Louisiana how to cast their ballot."

Yet he said: "When someone has a long record, an ugly record of racism and of bigotry, that record simply cannot be erased by the glib rhetoric of a political campaign. So I believe David Duke is an insincere charlatan. I believe he's attempting to hoodwink the voters of Louisiana, I believe he should be rejected for what he is and what he stands for."

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/11/07/us/the-1991-election-louisiana-bush-denounces-duke-as-racist-and-charlatan.html

Compare the reaction of President Bush and both state and national Republican Party to Donald Trump and the RNCs support of Roy Moore. So yeah Democrats haven’t been good on the issue but they have shown the willingness to work to a higher standard while Republicans have demonstrated outright hypocrisy and lowered the bar.

republicans just won a historic victory to regain the white house and need every single vote to get their agenda passed which they can do over the next 6 months.

In 6 months (or less) moore can be removed and another special election can take place. there is absolutely no reason at all for the RNC/GOP and team trump to shoot themeselves in the foot right now. None. what. so. ever.

now if RNC/GOP was the minority in house and senate? and there was a democratic president? sure! of course nothing to lose! just like democrats have nothing to lose right now and it still took them 2 weeks for conyers and 3 weeks for Al franken(if he even resigns). easy to quit when their is nothing to lose.


so yeah, GOP is not going to fall for that 6th grade logic and neither will the people of alabama. not when they have a mere 51 senators and not a single democrat willing to negotiate with them. they will remove moore when another special election can be taken place.

[stilldropin20]

I never expected the Republican party to fall so far, so fast. It has been truly horrifying to watch.

all the way to the depths of 2 million new jobs?

all the way to 3.3% GDP

all the way down to a 30% increase in everyone's 401K?

all the way down to a 18 year low on unemployment? was 17 year low last week?

all the way down to finally recognizing jerusalem as the capitol of Israel?

all the way down to competitive tax cuts for corporations to return and new ones to come?

all the way down to long over due tax break for almost everyone?

all the way down to finally begin cutting go nowhere social programs that dont change lives?

all the way down to exposing HRC and the entire Obama administration for selling russia 20% of our oil reserves?

all the way down to building back up our military to be the strongest in the world?

stoop that Low? wow! Hope we stoop that low every year.

[stilldropin20]

now is as good of a time as any to point out that

President Donald trump supported Luther Strange over Roy Moore. The instincts of trump were right again!!!

the man is a political savant.

[dckingsfan]

Interesting that sexual predators on both sides of the aisle get a pass. I truly don't understand this... I guess you look at Trump supporting Moore and say it is just an evil guy supporting an evil guy.

But it has been endemic for quite some time on both sides of the aisle and in business and entertainment. And it is still political - each tribe turns their head

I’m going to call you out on this being not being accurate. I can give you numerous examples of Democrats holding other Democrats to standards and don’t even use Clinton as an example when that was 20 years ago in a different social and technological climate.

Conyers steppped down. Numerous Democrats have called Al Fraken to step down. Remember Anthony Weiner? He was pressured to step down after a sexting scandal. He didn’t have an affair and he didn’t sexual assault anyone but was still held up to a higher standard.

Meanwhile we know a Republican congressman Blake Farentold was accused of sexual harassment and used the same payout fund as Conyers yet Paul Ryan won’t call for the Republican to step down while he was quick to call for Conyers To Step down. The Republican party supported and elected the known sexual predator Donald Trump. They are now fully supporting the known child predator Roy Moore. And it’s not because they are inherently evil but given the choice between doing the right thing and power/party, they will always choose the latter. So yeah Republicans are great if you want taxes cut, but you can’t vote for them in order to claim some moral position.

Let’s be clear politics haven’t turned tribal, right wing politics have become tribal. The right has used the backlash against the first black President to gain political capital. They questioned his birthplace, refused to compromise and put party over country. I’ll give you an example of just how far right wing politics have fallen. Look what a real President had to say about David Duke’s Governor run:

The President said, "I have got to be careful, because I don't want to tell the voters of Louisiana how to cast their ballot."

Yet he said: "When someone has a long record, an ugly record of racism and of bigotry, that record simply cannot be erased by the glib rhetoric of a political campaign. So I believe David Duke is an insincere charlatan. I believe he's attempting to hoodwink the voters of Louisiana, I believe he should be rejected for what he is and what he stands for."

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/11/07/us/the-1991-election-louisiana-bush-denounces-duke-as-racist-and-charlatan.html

Compare the reaction of President Bush and both state and national Republican Party to Donald Trump and the RNCs support of Roy Moore. So yeah Democrats haven’t been good on the issue but they have shown the willingness to work to a higher standard while Republicans have demonstrated outright hypocrisy and lowered the bar.

Mine was a historical comment - you might not like that it was equally bad on both sides - sorry, not seeing it is tribal. And you might not like that the House rules were put in place by both parties to protect their own.

You may very well be right that the Ds are driving in the right direction now more than the Rs. I think what Jackie Speier is doing is going in the right direction - I haven't seen an equal presentation from the Rs. Terrific - nicely done Jackie! If the Ds get on the right side of this (and they can do this now that it doesn't hurt their majority standing) terrific - they will be able to continue to dominate the women vote.

I do think most Rs called for Moore to step down. That doesn't exonerate the Rs but it does distort your point a bit. And Trump shouldn't be a standard bearer for the Rs any more than Conyers should be for the Ds - Trump is a sick individual.

[dckingsfan]

I think this hits it - although I think it isn't dead - more like a Phoenix that will rise from the ashes in 2020...

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/opinion/outlook/article/Rampell-Populism-has-finally-died-with-tax-12407984.php

[dckingsfan]

I never expected the Republican party to fall so far, so fast. It has been truly horrifying to watch.

Yep, basically over except for the yelling and shouting in 2018.

[Pointgod]

I never expected the Republican party to fall so far, so fast. It has been truly horrifying to watch.

Mitt Romney has it right and has consistently been on the right side of the Moore issue. Predictably Steve Bannon attacks his religion and questions his patriotism.

Read on Twitter

[Wizardspride]

Fwiw, I wouldn't be shocked if Keith Ellison is named Franken's replacement.

[stilldropin20]

I never expected the Republican party to fall so far, so fast. It has been truly horrifying to watch.

Yep, basically over except for the yelling and shouting in 2018.

yeah. its now the party of trump and bannon. GOP elitism is finally dead!!! good riddance!! git em out! git em out!

[dckingsfan]

I never expected the Republican party to fall so far, so fast. It has been truly horrifying to watch.

Yep, basically over except for the yelling and shouting in 2018.

yeah. its now the party of trump and bannon. GOP elitism is finally dead!!! good riddance!! git em out! git em out!

Correct and also about to become the minority party. So there is that...

[stilldropin20]

Fwiw, I wouldn't be shocked if Keith Ellison is named Franken's replacement.

until the special election. which im sure the D governor will delay as long as possible.

in 2014 franken won with 1,053,205. His R counterpart had 850,227. 103,000 vote difference.

In 2016 HRC won the state by an extremely slim margin 1,367,716 to trumps 1,322,951. me thinks a republican will win the special election.

especially given that HRC got to run on the labor/farmer ticket. what joke!! HRC represents labor and farmers over trump!!??

R's will get that seat. And a Trump/Bannon R will hopefully win the primary.

[stilldropin20]

Yep, basically over except for the yelling and shouting in 2018.

yeah. its now the party of trump and bannon. GOP elitism is finally dead!!! good riddance!! git em out! git em out!

Correct and also about to become the minority party. So there is that...

you grossly underestimate how well the economy and jobs market is going. and R's will get tax reform, entitlement reform, along side a long term spending solution which will be sustainable. all that done before 2018.

you keep all that going and D's wont have a chance in 2018. There are 17 sitting US senators on the slush fund list methinks most or nearly all of them are D's. Given the climate. They are all going down. this will be the october surprise. Book it. So I'm predicting R's will keep the senate. If not pick up a seat like Minnesota.

as long as R's keep the house. which they will. there will be no silly impeachment. so Tump/Bannon will keep the white house as well.

I'm curious, exactly which seats do you think R's will lose?

[dckingsfan]

yeah. its now the party of trump and bannon. GOP elitism is finally dead!!! good riddance!! git em out! git em out!

Correct and also about to become the minority party. So there is that...

you grossly underestimate how well the economy and jobs market is going. and R's will get tax reform, entitlement reform, along side a long term spending solution which will be sustainable. all that done before 2018.

you keep all that going and D's wont have a chance in 2018. There are 17 sitting US senators on the slush fund list methinks most or nearly all of them are D's. Given the climate. They are all going down. this will be the october surprise. Book it. So I'm predicting R's will keep the senate. If not pick up a seat like Minnesota.

as long as R's keep the house. which they will. there will be no silly impeachment. so Tump/Bannon will keep the white house as well.

I'm curious, exactly which seats do you think R's will lose?

The party not holding the White House has gained house seats in 18 of the past 20 midterm elections. That is a solid trend.

Going way back to the 1930s, the party not in power has won at least 24 seats a substantial 10+ times.

Trump has the worst approval rating in modern history - he is easy to run against in many areas of the country. And Republicans in the house and senate have some of the lowest approval ratings ----- ever.

People will have figured out how bad the tax bill is for them by then - Katy bar the doors.

I say they lose the house... we will see.

[Wizardspride]

Fwiw, I wouldn't be shocked if Keith Ellison is named Franken's replacement.

until the special election. which im sure the D governor will delay as long as possible.

in 2014 franken won with 1,053,205. His R counterpart had 850,227. 103,000 vote difference.

In 2016 HRC won the state by an extremely slim margin 1,367,716 to trumps 1,322,951. me thinks a republican will win the special election.

especially given that HRC got to run on the labor/farmer ticket. what joke!! HRC represents labor and farmers over trump!!??

R's will get that seat. And a Trump/Bannon R will hopefully win the primary.

I can't find the current approval numbers by state but I can't imagine Trump is particularly popular in Minnesota.

I think you overestimate Trump's influence and power. Well actually, let me rephrase that: I think you overestimate Trump's power and influence in certain places.

I mean honestly, Trump won a historic victory. Give him his due....but it's not like he beat some beloved politician.

Now if he would have beat an Obama or a Biden well then yeah, talk smack.

But Trump beat someone who had horrible unfavorables....of course so did he.

To put it in NFL terms, you have two winless teams (0-15) meeting in the final week of the season.

They both suck for different reasons...but someone has to win. And "Team Trump" was the victor.

Doesn't mean his team is actually good. It just means he was better that day.

Am I making any sense?

[stilldropin20]

Fwiw, I wouldn't be shocked if Keith Ellison is named Franken's replacement.

until the special election. which im sure the D governor will delay as long as possible.

in 2014 franken won with 1,053,205. His R counterpart had 850,227. 103,000 vote difference.

In 2016 HRC won the state by an extremely slim margin 1,367,716 to trumps 1,322,951. me thinks a republican will win the special election.

especially given that HRC got to run on the labor/farmer ticket. what joke!! HRC represents labor and farmers over trump!!??

R's will get that seat. And a Trump/Bannon R will hopefully win the primary.

I can't find the current approval numbers by state but I can't imagine Trump is particularly popular in Minnesota.

I think you overestimate Trump's influence and power. Well actually, let me rephrase that: I think you overestimate Trump's power and influence in certain places.

I mean honestly, Trump won a historic victory. Give him his due....but it's not like he beat some beloved politician.


Now if he would have beat an Obama or a Biden well then yeah, talk smack.

But Trump beat someone who had horrible unfavorables....of course so did he.

To put it in NFL terms, you have two winless teams (0-15) meeting in the final week of the season.

They both suck for different reasons...but someone has to win. And "Team Trump" was the victor.

Doesn't mean his team is actually good. It just means he was better that day.

Am I making any sense?

yes. and fair enough analogy. you grossly underestimate how beloved Bill Clinton once was, Obama and michelle campaigned hard for her, Bernie brought a ton of young voters over to her, and she had a rolodex capable of raising half a $trillion in 6 months. And she was going to become the first female president. Lots over young snow flakes voted for her strictly because she is a woman.

So i'd put it more at 7-8 team(trump) got some luck and went on a historic run FOR THE AGES and finds itself up 28-3 late in the 2nd quarter against a historic powerhouse (new england) at the end of its run. The game aint over. Dems are dead set on impeaching him cuz the interests they represent in congress cant control him. Career bureaucrat R's are willing to impeach if he misteps because he is calling them out for not getting stuff done.

I mean just look at the jerusalem thing? Trumps announcement today. From Clinton, to Bush, to Obama-all 3 of them promised the exact same thing trump delivered today during their campaigns. the senate has voted on this 90-10!!!!!! yet all we are going to hear all day and all night long on CNN is how bad this is. CNN will show footage of palestinian demonstrations for weeks. guaranteed. especially if something bad happens.

and thats what makes trump so special. he is willing to "step in it." And because he is willing to step in it, he is up 28-3 late in the 2nd quarter.

A new american politician is born. Finally. and of all effing people!! Donald effin trump???? What? #whowouldathunkit? #draintheswamp #fasterpussycat #alliswellthatendswell

[Wizardspride]

until the special election. which im sure the D governor will delay as long as possible.

in 2014 franken won with 1,053,205. His R counterpart had 850,227. 103,000 vote difference.

In 2016 HRC won the state by an extremely slim margin 1,367,716 to trumps 1,322,951. me thinks a republican will win the special election.

especially given that HRC got to run on the labor/farmer ticket. what joke!! HRC represents labor and farmers over trump!!??

R's will get that seat. And a Trump/Bannon R will hopefully win the primary.

I can't find the current approval numbers by state but I can't imagine Trump is particularly popular in Minnesota.

I think you overestimate Trump's influence and power. Well actually, let me rephrase that: I think you overestimate Trump's power and influence in certain places.

I mean honestly, Trump won a historic victory. Give him his due....but it's not like he beat some beloved politician.


Now if he would have beat an Obama or a Biden well then yeah, talk smack.

But Trump beat someone who had horrible unfavorables....of course so did he.

To put it in NFL terms, you have two winless teams (0-15) meeting in the final week of the season.

They both suck for different reasons...but someone has to win. And "Team Trump" was the victor.

Doesn't mean his team is actually good. It just means he was better that day.

Am I making any sense?

yes. and fair enough analogy. you grossly underestimate how beloved Bill Clinton once was, Obama and michelle campaigned hard for her, Bernie brought a ton of young voters over to her, and she had a rolodex capable of raising half a $trillion in 6 months. And she was going to become the first female president. Lots over young snow flakes voted for her strictly because she is a woman.

So i'd put it more at 7-8 team(trump) got some luck and went on a historic run FOR THE AGES and finds itself up 28-3 late in the 2nd quarter against a historic powerhouse (new england) at the end of its run.

Hillary was a powerhouse in terms of money but not in terms of popularity.

And that's my point. Trump beat someone who was historically unpopular. Well second only to him.