Official Trade Thread - Part XXIV

[queridiculo]

Why on earth would you send a first round pick to the Suns for Gortat???

[nate33]

The Wizards aren't in a position to trading away 1st round picks for a modestly above-average player on an expiring contract. If they want Gortat, the sensible move is to wait until the offseason and go after him then.

[verbal8]

These trade ideas undervalue Gortat fairly significantly. If the Suns were willing to trade him for such packages, they most likely would have already. A more realistic deal would have the pick have weaker protection, somewhere from 8-12, and also either include one of the Wizards' younger players or else have the Wizards take on Channing Frye's salary for next year by trading Okafor instead of Ariza. Or both of those things. Gortat is quite a good center, top 10-15 in the league. But I agree that he is a good target for the Wizards, he would be a good fit and they have enough assets to get him without weakening the team. A bit part of whether they'd be willing to trade for him is whether they'd be willing to re-sign him long term next summer to a fairly big contract, which I think would be a good move.

I think Gortat would be a good target. He loses a lot of trade value because everyone knows the Suns don't have a lot of interest in retaining him. He is probably a little more valuable than Ariza, but the difference closer to Glen Rice Jr, than a potential early 1st round pick in a very strong draft.

It looks like Channing Frye had a decent year last year, I don't think he has negative trade value, but if the Wizards could get both him and Gortat for Okafor with his recent health issues, they should definitely pull the trigger.

[Ruzious]

Gortat had a legit all-star quality 2011-12 season but fell off to just a good solid season last season. Question - was it because of an injury that he should bounce back from?

[pancakes3]

2014's pick is untradeable imo. It's just too good a draft to miss out on.

[nuposse04]

id do a top 7 protected '15 pick+Ariza+booker if that was enticing enough.

[WizardsWorld]

Ya don't see Gortat happening. I think we should look more to someone like Spencer Hawes. Will be a good deal cheaper than Gortat and with the Sixers tanking they probably have no problem moving him cheaply. Also a couple half way decent FA's out there that we could pick up cheap.

[rockymac52]

While I'm generally a big Gortat fan, and I think he's probably attainable given his age and the current state of the Suns (rebuild), I don't think he's worth trading the 2014 pick for, unless it's heavily protected for the foreseeable future (and even then, I'm not sure it's a wise investment). Like Nate said, the smart course of action if we want Gortat is to be patient and wait for him to be a free agent next summer.

Omer Asik, however, I'm a lot more interested in. Morey is a genius when it comes to maximizing value in trades, so it would probably be very difficult to agree on a trade with him, or it would likely be heavily in his favor. Clearly the Rockets value Asik's production, but signing Dwight changes things. They clearly do not need Asik anymore, at least not for $8 million a year. Dwight is a pretty safe bet to average 32-34 MPG at C, leaving only 14-16 MPG at C for Asik. The Rockets may try putting one of them at PF for short stretches in order to get Asik more minutes, but I'm very skeptical that either can play PF effectively at this point in their careers. If you're the Rockets, it's definitely worth exploring, but I just don't expect it to work out well. The Rockets are also going to try that in an attempt to increase Asik's value, because everyone in the league can see that Asik has become somewhat expendable after Dwight's signing, and the Rockets want to make sure they get fair value if they trade Asik. Morey won't give Asik away for less than fair value just because he's now overpaid for a backup C. He's just too smart for that.

The Rockets may be willing to let Lin and Asik play out their remaining years on their contracts (this season and next), because then they'd have a considerable amount of cap space and they could hypothetically sign a max caliber free agent in 2015, adding that player to Harden and Dwight, then extending Parsons on a reasonable deal since he expires that same summer and his cap hold is so small they can wait on him and go over the cap with Bird rights afterwards. But, if the Rockets want to sign that star free agent this coming summer instead, or at least have the opportunity to (since signing max free agents is obviously no sure thing for any team ever), they may be interested in trading Asik (and/or Lin - but only if they can acquire another capable PG for this season) this year in order to get enough cap space.

Assuming Lin is not a part of the deal since they need him at PG and we have nothing to offer there, the basis of the trade would probably be Asik for Ariza. That alone is likely not enough to convince them, especially since some of Ariza's worst years were in Houston with Morey, and he might not remember his time in Houston fondly. However, Asik for Ariza and our 2014 1st would almost definitely be enough to get it done. Even if Asik helps us become a playoff team, let's say the 6 seed, that would mean the draft pick would be about the 18th overall. I honestly think the 18th pick in 2014 will be just as good as the 18th pick in 2013 or 2015, hype be damned. Morey has been very successful in the draft, and even more successful at accumulating other team's future draft picks, then flipping them to other teams in incredible value deals. The Rockets get a capable player to play significant minutes off the bench on the wing, and he expires a year earlier than Asik, so they could possibly use that cap space this summer. Oh, and of course, the draft pick could just as easily end up being 10th overall, or possibly even better. I'd like to think the Rockets would jump on such a deal, even if the pick was lottery protected for the foreseeable future.

Now, would I want the Wizards to make that deal? I'm not as sure, but I'd at least entertain it. I like Ariza, but I like Asik a lot more, especially given the current makeup of our roster, even before Okafor's injury. Losing the 2014 draft pick would hurt, especially if we weren't able to make the playoffs this year. I would want the pick to be lottery protected for the foreseeable future. That way, even we aren't good enough to make the playoffs yet, we can still use that pick this year, and continue to do so until we are finally good enough to make the playoffs. Once we're a playoff team (even if only an 8 seed), I'd be okay with losing our draft pick for that year. It's unfortunate, but it's not the end of the world. Furthermore, if we made this trade, I'd expect us to make the playoffs this year, and most likely for the foreseeable future, since we'd most likely only continue to improve in the coming years, but that'd mean we'd lose the pick this year and it'd be done with.

Adding Asik would mean we wouldn't have enough cap space this summer to sign a max free agent. We'd only have about $8 million in cap space, which could still get us a decent player, or perhaps be split to re-sign some or all of Okafor, Harrington, Booker, Seraphin, and Vesely. Until we hear something to make us think otherwise, the only max caliber free agents who aren't over the hill this summer that would actually consider signing with the Wizards are Cousins and Monroe. Now, say what you will about the two of them, I know people here have their preferences between the two, but put me in the camp of not totally convinced they're worth a max contract. Mostly because if they are worth the max, then they're at the low end of all of the max contract players - meaning we'd be getting a raw deal value-wise since we're paying Cousins or Monroe the same amount of true stars like LeBron and Durant.

Let's say Cousins/Monroe turn out to be very very good, worth the max salary, but not true superstars. They might be better than Asik, but I don't think the difference between them is that big. They're certainly not twice as productive as Asik, which is basically what they'd be getting paid compared to him. If we sign Cousins/Monroe, then we're going to have both that player and Wall on max contracts for the next 4 years, accounting for almost half of the salary cap by themselves. Then we'd have Nene making $13 million for the next 2 years, plus Beal, Webster, and Porter, and just like that, we're already at teh salary cap for the next 2 years, and likely for years 3 and 4 as well if Beal and/or Porter gets an extension upwards of $9 million a year or so. So basically we'd be all in with that core group, for better or worse. I'm not sold on that plan yet.

On the other hand, if we acquire Asik instead, then we will continue to have some salary cap flexibility, and almost as much production (if not better, honestly). Asik is a huge value at an annual salary of $8.3 million. Outside of one or two max contract players and a star on a rookie deal, value contracts are the best way to build a team. That's how you maximize your assets. Look at the Spurs. Obviously Manu is a shell of his old self, and Duncan's not as dominant as he used to be, but they're only making $7.5 million and $10.3 million this year, respectively. Even Tony Parker, in his prime, is only making $12.5 million this year. He's clearly a max caliber player, yet they locked him up for a little bit less, making him an incredible value instead of just a fair value. If you do this with multiple players, it adds up quickly! In general, I'd rather have an $8 million caliber player and a $7 million caliber player than a $15 million caliber player (note: this doesn't include the superstars like LeBron and Durant who deserve way more but can only get the max because of the CBA, rather this refers to the guys like Eric Gordon, Nic Batum, and Roy HIbbert, for example). Not always, but most of the time... At least if we're picking the right players to spend it on, which is obviously always the million dollar question.

Another alternative to lottery protecting our 1st round pick in this trade would be to give the Rockets the right to swap 1st round picks. Their pick will likely be in the 24-30 range, I'd expect. Then if we end up with the 18th pick, we'd only be trading a few picks down in order to upgrade to Asik, which might be worth it.

[deneem4]

Nene for asik....maybe add a 2015 1st rd to push it through...

Rockets need a vet presence with dwight, nene defense and iq would fit perfectly
We do it to get younger and free cap....havin asik is a great asset, and it also gets nene off our books...okafor expiring soon, so even when he does get healthy, either 1 of them can be moved rather quickly...

We then can go after a patrick patterson, he can shoot well for a big and has history playing nxt to wall and asik..
I dont know who we'll giv up maybe an ernie kid and a 2nd rd or two or maybe porter (rice looks promising as of now) or aiza in a package deal...but this lineup of

Wall
Beal
Ariza
Patterson
Asik

Looks very good

[LyricalRico]

^ Overall, that's a scenario I would consider (even if Okafor were healthy). I wouldn't give up Porter to get Patterson, but I see where you're going.

[dangermouse]

It sucks Okafor is injured. I hope he comes back asap at full strength.

He was good trade bait too.

I'd be all over a trade for Spencer Hawes. He is a 3pt shooting C, so Wall will be happy. He rebounds decently. And if memory serves, he always seems to have big games against us. Maybe he will have big games for us? Ive liked him since he was in Sac town. I'd ship them Ariza and one of ernies kids, maybe a 2nd if they wished.

[Ruzious]

It sucks Okafor is injured. I hope he comes back asap at full strength.

He was good trade bait too.

I'd be all over a trade for Spencer Hawes. He is a 3pt shooting C, so Wall will be happy. He rebounds decently. And if memory serves, he always seems to have big games against us. Maybe he will have big games for us? Ive liked him since he was in Sac town. I'd ship them Ariza and one of ernies kids, maybe a 2nd if they wished.

I'm not sure why Hawes hasn't developed into a better player. Aside from what you mentioned, he's probably as good or better passer than any center in the NBA. And while he's not a great athlete, physically - he's pretty similar to Monroe and Marc Gasol - though not quite as strong. He has some really good streaks followed by really bad streaks, so his coaches and teammates don't seem to trust him enough to get him the ball. But if they did, they'd be the recipients of more of his excellent passes. It looks like it's never going to happen for him.

Thinking out loud about our glut at SF and the opposite at PF and C - the Lakers have practically nothing at SF and had a positive history with Ariza. I love 2 of the Lakers bigs as unheralded players who could develop into major roles - Jordan Hill and 2nd rounder Ryan Kelly. Hill could be an Okafor type, and Kelly could be an Ilyasova type. Ariza and the Lakers' choiice of Vesely or Seraphin for Hill, Kelly, and Blake (filler). I think they're all expirings - maybe Kelly has another year or 2 on a 2nd round contract.

[alex_fortress]

Thinking out loud about our glut at SF and the opposite at PF and C - the Lakers have practically nothing at SF and had a positive history with Ariza. I love 2 of the Lakers bigs as unheralded players who could develop into major roles - Jordan Hill and 2nd rounder Ryan Kelly. Hill could be an Okafor type, and Kelly could be an Ilyasova type. Ariza and the Lakers' choiice of Vesely or Seraphin for Hill, Kelly, and Blake (filler). I think they're all expirings - maybe Kelly has another year or 2 on a 2nd round contract.

Lakers are gonna have Young, Wes Johnson and Kobe eating minutes at the 3. Probably one of Henry, Landry, or Williams after camp too.

[Ruzious]

Thinking out loud about our glut at SF and the opposite at PF and C - the Lakers have practically nothing at SF and had a positive history with Ariza. I love 2 of the Lakers bigs as unheralded players who could develop into major roles - Jordan Hill and 2nd rounder Ryan Kelly. Hill could be an Okafor type, and Kelly could be an Ilyasova type. Ariza and the Lakers' choiice of Vesely or Seraphin for Hill, Kelly, and Blake (filler). I think they're all expirings - maybe Kelly has another year or 2 on a 2nd round contract.

Lakers are gonna have Young, Wes Johnson and Kobe at the 3. Probably one of Henry, Landry, or Williams after camp too.

One of those players is good, and he's a 2. No more hints.

[alex_fortress]

One of those players is good, and he's a 2. No more hints.

Whether or not you think Nick Young is any good, he'll be getting starter minutes this year. Kobe played most of the back up minutes at SF last year anyways. Wes is a solid project they brought on for some athleticism.

Your trade creates a hole at the 4 for LA. LAL is pretty much set at SF.

[Dat2U]

One of those players is good, and he's a 2. No more hints.

Whether or not you think Nick Young is any good, he'll be getting starter minutes this year. Kobe played most of the back up minutes at SF last year anyways. Wes is a solid project they brought on for some athleticism.

Your trade just creates a hole at the 4 for LA.

Nick isn't any good. No one has to "think" about that. There's plenty of demonstrable evidence that points to the fact he's never been any good.

Nor is Wes is a "solid" project. Solid is comparative to reliable, good quality or first-rate. None of these words accurately describes Wes' NBA career.

You can debate on whether Kobe is a 2 or 3 but there's no debate that he's the only wing player of quality on the Lakers roster.

[alex_fortress]

Nick isn't any good. No one has to "think" about that. There's plenty of demonstrable evidence that points to the fact he's never been any good.

Nor is Wes is a "solid" project. Solid is comparative to reliable, good quality or first-rate. None of these words accurately describes Wes' NBA career.

You can debate on whether Kobe is a 2 or 3 but there's no debate that he's the only wing player of quality on the Lakers roster.

Young is certainly good at what's need of him, specifically scoring and shooting. Which is exactly what MDA wants and needs in his system and what he'll get off the bench.

I called Wes a solid PROJECT, not a solid player. Like Clark last year, he'll serve a purpose under MDA.

[Ruzious]

Nick isn't any good. No one has to "think" about that. There's plenty of demonstrable evidence that points to the fact he's never been any good.

Nor is Wes is a "solid" project. Solid is comparative to reliable, good quality or first-rate. None of these words accurately describes Wes' NBA career.

You can debate on whether Kobe is a 2 or 3 but there's no debate that he's the only wing player of quality on the Lakers roster.

Young is certainly good at what's need of him, specifically scoring and shooting. Which is exactly what MDA wants and needs in his system and what he'll get off the bench.

I called Wes a solid PROJECT, not a solid player. Like Clark last year, he'll serve a purpose under MDA.

Nick is only so-so at what he does best - and he doesn't do anything else even so-so - other than 1 on 1 defense - being a poor team defender. Both of these guys have been in the NBA too long and are too old to be called projects. They most likely will continue to be what they have been - which isn't enough unless LAL is tanking - which may be the case.

[alex_fortress]

Nick is only so-so at what he does best - and he doesn't do anything else even so-so - other than 1 on 1 defense - being a poor team defender. Both of these guys have been in the NBA too long and are too old to be called projects. They most likely will continue to be what they have been - which isn't enough unless LAL is tanking - which may be the case.

Never called Young a project, he's a 28 year old scorer/shooter coming off the bench in a system built around scoring and shooting. And since when is defense a necessity when playing for D'antoni? Wes is what he is, an athletic SF that can stick a 3 that can probably find a good role under D'antoni. Like last year MDA will probably play a lot of Blake and Meeks at the 2, shifting a lot of Kobe and Young's minutes at the 3. More so with Farmar on board this year.

Gasol and Kaman are injury prone, so they're not gonna trade Hill and Kelly for a player at a position that LA has felt they've addressed. Especially if it means relying on Sacre and Harris when either Gasol or Kaman go down.

[Ruzious]

Nick is only so-so at what he does best - and he doesn't do anything else even so-so - other than 1 on 1 defense - being a poor team defender. Both of these guys have been in the NBA too long and are too old to be called projects. They most likely will continue to be what they have been - which isn't enough unless LAL is tanking - which may be the case.

Never called Young a project, he's a 28 year old scorer/shooter coming off the bench in a system built around scoring and shooting. And since when is defense a necessity when playing for D'antoni? Wes is what he is, an athletic SF that can stick a 3 that can probably find a good role under D'antoni. Like last year MDA will probably play a lot of Blake and Meeks at the 2, shifting a lot of Kobe and Young's minutes at the 3. More so with Farmar on board this year.

Gasol and Kaman are injury prone, so they're not gonna trade Hill and Kelly for a player at a position that LA has felt they've addressed. Especially if it means relying on Sacre and Harris when either Gasol or Kaman go down.

The Lakers may very well have no interest in the trade idea, but you're giving lousy reasons. Any system requires good players to win. Young and Wes aren't good players for the reasons mentioned. Blake rarely plays the 2 and isn't good at it. Meeks is a shooting specialist who shot 38.7% last season. And you want to keep Hill because their vet bigs are injured - yet Hill missed most of last season with an injury. If they take Seraphin, they get a big who's not injury-prone. Granted, Hill's better, but the Lakers are getting a needed SF in the deal.