Political Roundtable Part XII

[tontoz]

Yeah, sure. Agreed. But so what. The police aren't gonna solve this any more than they can solve inter-racial tensions. That's not their job. This is about changing perceptions, changing beliefs, and bridging understanding. And codifying in law rights and penalties for violating those rights, and yeah, making sure those are enforced.

There is no solution for racists. You are looking for something that doesn't exist. Non-violent marches wont mean anything to them. You aren't going to change their perceptions or beliefs or understandings but you can punish them for their actions.

[dckingsfan]

Well, that is our roots right. Immigrants to Colonial America came mostly as indentured servants add to that the slaves.

Slaves, we needed them for agriculture and then we didn't. We had the Chinese Exclusion Act, we needed them to build the railroads and then we didn't. Hispanics, we needed them for agriculture and menial labor to keep the country running and then we didn't and that has happened in multiple waves, don't forget the Mexican Repatriation program and Operation Wetback. Immigration Act of 1924 - can't have those Jews can we.

We are a xenophobic society. We have always struggled with this. If we ever truly get away from it - I think it will be yet another 50 years when the percentage of Non-Hispanic whites make up less than 50 percent of the population.

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

If they are genuinely afraid of being harassed by strangers during this Trump's mania they can change their clothes to avoid it completely, or they can call the cops and report it. They have options here that they don't have in Saudi Arabia.

Harassing innocent Muslim women because of what they are wearing doesn't seem like supposedly "Making America Great Again". Suppose all the Muslim women were to assimilate their clothing(or they all get deported), who is next? Is it Sikhs and others who wear turbans? Is it women wearing Saris?

Thanks Captain Obvious. Personally i think Trump is a crazy opportunist who courted the white supremacist types to get elected.

I never said anything about deporting Muslims who didn't dress a certain. I said they should consider changing their clothes if they are worried about being the victim of a hate crime.

Odds are that Martin Luther King would have gone on to live a long, safe life if only he had, you know, stopped standing out and speaking against Jim Crow.

[dckingsfan]

Yeah, sure. Agreed. But so what. The police aren't gonna solve this any more than they can solve inter-racial tensions. That's not their job. This is about changing perceptions, changing beliefs, and bridging understanding. And codifying in law rights and penalties for violating those rights, and yeah, making sure those are enforced.

There is no solution for racists. You are looking for something that doesn't exist. Non-violent marches wont mean anything to them. You aren't going to change their perceptions or beliefs or understandings but you can punish them for their actions.

This is where you are off (or your implication toward violence is misguided) - every time their has been violence throughout history, the minorities lose. The better approach is to be vigilant to show how immigrants and minorities benefit the country.

Learn the lesson from Hillary. A vast majority of Americans are NOT racist. You want to appeal to that group.

[tontoz]

Harassing innocent Muslim women because of what they are wearing doesn't seem like supposedly "Making America Great Again". Suppose all the Muslim women were to assimilate their clothing(or they all get deported), who is next? Is it Sikhs and others who wear turbans? Is it women wearing Saris?

Thanks Captain Obvious. Personally i think Trump is a crazy opportunist who courted the white supremacist types to get elected.

I never said anything about deporting Muslims who didn't dress a certain. I said they should consider changing their clothes if they are worried about being the victim of a hate crime.

Odds are that Martin Luther King would have gone on to live a long, safe life if only he had, you know, stopped standing out and speaking against Jim Crow.

Comparing this Muslim situation to what blacks faced is pretty insulting to the civil rights movement. Muslims can easily register to
vote, they don't have separate bathrooms/buses. Pretty nonsensical comparison.

[tontoz]

Yeah, sure. Agreed. But so what. The police aren't gonna solve this any more than they can solve inter-racial tensions. That's not their job. This is about changing perceptions, changing beliefs, and bridging understanding. And codifying in law rights and penalties for violating those rights, and yeah, making sure those are enforced.

There is no solution for racists. You are looking for something that doesn't exist. Non-violent marches wont mean anything to them. You aren't going to change their perceptions or beliefs or understandings but you can punish them for their actions.

This is where you are off (or your implication toward violence is misguided) - every time their has been violence throughout history, the minorities lose. The better approach is to be vigilant to show how immigrants and minorities benefit the country.

Learn the lesson from Hillary. A vast majority of Americans are NOT racist. You want to appeal to that group.

We have laws in place to prosecute hate crimes. What is the point of having these laws on the books if we don't enforce them? Are you saying that Muslims should avoid reporting these cases because they are a minority? Do you think racists will listen to your appeal about how immigrants benefit the country? If so i have some Lehman Bros bonds i can give you a great price on.

[sfam]

Yeah, sure. Agreed. But so what. The police aren't gonna solve this any more than they can solve inter-racial tensions. That's not their job. This is about changing perceptions, changing beliefs, and bridging understanding. And codifying in law rights and penalties for violating those rights, and yeah, making sure those are enforced.

There is no solution for racists. You are looking for something that doesn't exist. Non-violent marches wont mean anything to them. You aren't going to change their perceptions or beliefs or understandings but you can punish them for their actions.

Actually this isn't true. If you grow up with racist parents but are exposed to diverse friends, your views change. This is why we have LGBT rights now - same thing. Everyone has grown up knowing someone like than and is no longer afraid. If those racists grew up friends with a Muslim, they too would change their views.

Some of the most interesting things happening in peacebuilding are virtual exchange programs. There's some wonderful ones on Facebook initiated by an Israeli that has terrific support from Palestinians. All the do is friend someone from the other side, and then just watch their posts. They realize the other guy is just as dumb and silly as they are.

Best yet, kids whose views have changed actually have the potential to change their parents views. As with addressing violent extremism, the messenger is lots more important than the message. If your kid is telling you to reconsider, you very well might.

[dckingsfan]

There is no solution for racists. You are looking for something that doesn't exist. Non-violent marches wont mean anything to them. You aren't going to change their perceptions or beliefs or understandings but you can punish them for their actions.

This is where you are off (or your implication toward violence is misguided) - every time their has been violence throughout history, the minorities lose. The better approach is to be vigilant to show how immigrants and minorities benefit the country.

Learn the lesson from Hillary. A vast majority of Americans are NOT racist. You want to appeal to that group.

We have laws in place to prosecute hate crimes. What is the point of having these laws on the books if we don't enforce them? Are you saying that Muslims should avoid reporting these cases because they are a minority? Do you think racists will listen to your appeal about how immigrants benefit the country? If so i have some Lehman Bros bonds i can give you a great price on.

I am saying - you don't want vigilante violence. The net result is worse for those very folks you are trying to defend/help.

The law of unintended consequences runs very deep here.

[sfam]

Well, that is our roots right. Immigrants to Colonial America came mostly as indentured servants add to that the slaves.

Slaves, we needed them for agriculture and then we didn't. We had the Chinese Exclusion Act, we needed them to build the railroads and then we didn't. Hispanics, we needed them for agriculture and menial labor to keep the country running and then we didn't and that has happened in multiple waves, don't forget the Mexican Repatriation program and Operation Wetback. Immigration Act of 1924 - can't have those Jews can we.

We are a xenophobic society. We have always struggled with this. If we ever truly get away from it - I think it will be yet another 50 years when the percentage of Non-Hispanic whites make up less than 50 percent of the population.

And yet we are so far less xenophobic than most places on earth just because we allow such a free flow of immigrants. Diversity and interaction over time really does breed tolerance. This is the experience of the US military. That a black person was able to become US President shocked the world. That would not have been possible, in say, France, or Great Britain, or Germany, etc.

[tontoz]

Yeah, sure. Agreed. But so what. The police aren't gonna solve this any more than they can solve inter-racial tensions. That's not their job. This is about changing perceptions, changing beliefs, and bridging understanding. And codifying in law rights and penalties for violating those rights, and yeah, making sure those are enforced.

There is no solution for racists. You are looking for something that doesn't exist. Non-violent marches wont mean anything to them. You aren't going to change their perceptions or beliefs or understandings but you can punish them for their actions.

Actually this isn't true. If you grow up with racist parents but are exposed to diverse friends, your views change. This is why we have LGBT rights now - same thing. Everyone has grown up knowing someone like than and is no longer afraid. If those racists grew up friends with a Muslim, they too would change their views.

Some of the most interesting things happening in peacebuilding are virtual exchange programs. There's some wonderful ones on Facebook initiated by an Israeli that has terrific support from Palestinians. All the do is friend someone from the other side, and then just watch their posts. They realize the other guy is just as dumb and silly as they are.

Best yet, kids whose views have changed actually have the potential to change their parents views. As with addressing violent extremism, the messenger is lots more important than the message. If your kid is telling you to reconsider, you very well might.

So your solution to the current problem is the force racists to get more diverse friends? OK good luck with that.

[tontoz]

This is where you are off (or your implication toward violence is misguided) - every time their has been violence throughout history, the minorities lose. The better approach is to be vigilant to show how immigrants and minorities benefit the country.

Learn the lesson from Hillary. A vast majority of Americans are NOT racist. You want to appeal to that group.

We have laws in place to prosecute hate crimes. What is the point of having these laws on the books if we don't enforce them? Are you saying that Muslims should avoid reporting these cases because they are a minority? Do you think racists will listen to your appeal about how immigrants benefit the country? If so i have some Lehman Bros bonds i can give you a great price on.

I am saying - you don't want vigilante violence. The net result is worse for those very folks you are trying to defend/help.

The law of unintended consequences runs very deep here.

Self defense is not vigilante violence. Every US citizen has the right to defend themselves if they are attacked, for any reason.

[dckingsfan]

We have laws in place to prosecute hate crimes. What is the point of having these laws on the books if we don't enforce them? Are you saying that Muslims should avoid reporting these cases because they are a minority? Do you think racists will listen to your appeal about how immigrants benefit the country? If so i have some Lehman Bros bonds i can give you a great price on.

I am saying - you don't want vigilante violence. The net result is worse for those very folks you are trying to defend/help.

The law of unintended consequences runs very deep here.

Self defense is not vigilante violence. Every US citizen has the right to defend themselves if they are attacked, for any reason.

Ah, maybe I miss-understood you. I thought you were advocating sucker punches (Richard Spencer) & or what happened in Berkley with Milo Yiannopoulos.

[Induveca]

Sfam on one hand you say people have made a caricature of 1.6 billion muslims, then repeatedly blame "white people".

There are roughly 1.5 billion caucasians in the world, how are you not being a complete hypocrite?

Hmm, not really sure I understand this statement. I'm actually a white people. If you're saying I am blaming white people in the US for harassing and intimidating muslims, then yes, I'm guilty as charged. If you inferred I meant "all white" people, I'm not sure what to say about that.

By the way, I'm guessing most are probably confusing the term "Arab" with the term "Muslim". They are different. Arab is a cultural and language grouping. Most Arabs are Muslim, but not most Muslims are Arab. Indonesians are not Arab. The Kurds, who's society was destroyed by the British empire, dividing them between Turkey, Syria and Iraq, are not Muslim. Their women carry guns and shoot people. They wear whatever they want. Walk around Erbil, the future capital of Kurdistan, and you get a European-Turkish vibe.

It is a very fair statement to say that across the Arab world, women are treated pretty poorly on the full range of issues. Worse in some countries than others. It is simply not a fair statement to say all Muslim women are treated poorly. It just isn't factual. More to the point, the way to change those societies is with interaction and exchange. Dialog and debate,including relationship to religious traditions. Opening up the civil space. Advocacy, but in a factual way that can resonate. This is how you affect women's rights in those societies.

FYI, I've done a LOT (years) of travel/work in mostly GCC nations. The standard "educate the ignorant westerner on Arab/Muslim differences" doesn't apply.

---
Dialog and debate,including relationship to religious traditions. Opening up the civil space. Advocacy, but in a factual way that can resonate. This is how you affect women's rights in those societies.
---

From your above statement. Not a single Muslim nation in the Middle East wants any type of "dialog and debate" openly preached in public places.

I encourage you to grab a soapbox, and advocate for change in any GCC nation (or other wealthy ME Muslim nation), and passionately preach for improved women's rights for their citizens. As a wealthy foreigner, you'll quickly be arrested, and at best quietly deported. However if you're a citizen, or a citizen of a Muslim country prepare for a harsh jail sentence for you and any peers they locate via your social or work circles.

To even pretend Americans or Europeans can significantly impact anything related to strict or partial Islamic law, via open dialogue is ridiculous. The monarchies of these nations won't allow it, the "Arab Spring" has placed even tighter regulations on expression and protest.

The appearance of complete compliance in public settings, and the threat of consistently harsh prison sentences is the only thing which keep their millions of poorly treated/poorly educated non-citizen Muslim workers from protesting/rioting (those non Arab Muslims you mentioned).

[DCZards]

Comparing this Muslim situation to what blacks faced is pretty insulting to the civil rights movement. Muslims can easily register to
vote, they don't have separate bathrooms/buses. Pretty nonsensical comparison.

Those who fought for civil rights in the 1950s and ‘60s, which includes some of my ancestors, would be standing shoulder-to-shoulder with the Muslim woman wearing the hijab...and against the modern day Bull Connors who would attack her for wearing it.

I don’t think civil rights leaders would consider it an insult at all to compare the struggle for voting rights, etc. with the fight for religious freedom. There are strong and obvious parallels between the two struggles.

[tontoz]

Comparing this Muslim situation to what blacks faced is pretty insulting to the civil rights movement. Muslims can easily register to
vote, they don't have separate bathrooms/buses. Pretty nonsensical comparison.

Those who fought for civil rights in the 1950s and ‘60s, which includes some of my ancestors, would be standing shoulder-to-shoulder with the Muslim woman wearing the hijab...and against the modern day Bull Connors who would attack her for wearing it.

I don’t think civil rights leaders would consider it an insult at all to compare the struggle for voting rights, etc. with the fight for religious freedom. There are strong and obvious parallels between the two struggles.

Sure there is a parallel, just like there is a parallel between guys playing pickup ball at a local gym and guys playing in the NBA.

Muslim citizens already have all the legal rights that blacks were fighting for back then. Are there any laws saying people can't be practicing Muslims in this country?

I have the right to walk the streets in a bad neighborhood late at night if i choose, but i understand i would be putting myself at risk if i did so.

[payitforward]

You know what, I can't figure out what you guys are arguing about.

[Induveca]

You know what, I can't figure out what you guys are arguing about.

Social justice movements which suddenly demand equality for certain groups, but said groups have operated pretty freely for decades. There was a group trying to recruit Dominicans to march for equality in Washington heights a family member told me about, yeah didn't work.

There is a one today in NYC demanding equality for gays, in a city where no one even notices gay couples any longer. Yet somehow they're demonstrating to "preserve their rights".

Preemptive protests against perceived future wrongs are bizarre, maybe they've consulted Miss Cleo.

[Ruzious]

You know what, I can't figure out what you guys are arguing about.

Social justice movements which suddenly demand equality but have operated pretty damn freely for decades.

There is a one today in NYC demanding equality for gays, in a city where no one even notices gay couples any longer. Yet somehow they're demonstrating to "preserve their rights".

Preemptive protests against perceived future wrongs are bizarre, maybe they've consulted Miss Cleo.

LLLLOOOOLLLL. How ungrateful of them. We don't beat the crap out of them when we see them holding hands, and they still have solidarity marches! Chutzpa, right? And... having a march in February. How gay is that, right? At least do it in the right month.

[gtn130]

You know what, I can't figure out what you guys are arguing about.

Social justice movements which suddenly demand equality for certain groups, but said groups have operated pretty freely for decades. There was a group trying to recruit Dominicans to march for equality in Washington heights a family member told me about, yeah didn't work.

There is a one today in NYC demanding equality for gays, in a city where no one even notices gay couples any longer. Yet somehow they're demonstrating to "preserve their rights".

Preemptive protests against perceived future wrongs are bizarre, maybe they've consulted Miss Cleo.

not sure what you're trying to say here exactly but it sounds abhorrent

[Induveca]

You know what, I can't figure out what you guys are arguing about.

Social justice movements which suddenly demand equality but have operated pretty damn freely for decades.

There is a one today in NYC demanding equality for gays, in a city where no one even notices gay couples any longer. Yet somehow they're demonstrating to "preserve their rights".

Preemptive protests against perceived future wrongs are bizarre, maybe they've consulted Miss Cleo.

LLLLOOOOLLLL. How ungrateful of them. We don't beat the crap out of them when we see them holding hands, and they still have solidarity marches! Chutzpa, right? And... having a march in February. How gay is that, right? At least do it in the right month.

What the hell are you talking about? I've had a place in Chelsea for years, gay couples holding hands was shocking in the 80s.

Give me a break. NYC/Miami/Boston/LA/SF/DC/Austin and most major cities PDAs amongst gay couples is normal. What's next proclaiming interracial couples are shocking and worthy of protest?