Political Roundtable Part XIII

[sfam]

is everyone sufficiently convinced yet that repealing Obamacare is all about tax cuts for donors and not much else?

I am not... I think it is more about the Rs mantra that the ACA was a train wreck. Now they have to repeal it or they will look bad and their egos will be bruised.

If there was no tax hike in the ACA, this wouldn't even be an issue? No. They would still be trying to repeal it.

Either way, they are sooooo screwed.

Violent agreement

[sfam]

is everyone sufficiently convinced yet that repealing Obamacare is all about tax cuts for donors and not much else?

I am not... I think it is more about the Rs mantra that the ACA was a train wreck. Now they have to repeal it or they will look bad and their egos will be bruised.

If there was no tax hike in the ACA, this wouldn't even be an issue? No. They would still be trying to repeal it.

Either way, they are sooooo screwed.

Huh? The republicans are the ones touting how important it is to REPEAL it. If they wanted some lame political victory, they could make minor modifications to ACA, rename it, then champion how great it is for the next few months and call it a day.

They would be taking the hardest route possible to earning brownie points from their base. That's not what's going on here.

The Republicans really do have actual philosophical objections. They hate the idea that healthcare should be seen as a right of citizenship. They aren't being all that honest about it though. The problem is clear - removal of the ACA makes those most vulnerable far less likely to get health insurance.

The adult answer would be to accept that the ACA is law of the land, an then to look for conservative improvements to this. That is not occurring, unfortunately. Maybe this happens once the Ryan bill collapses.

[gtn130]

I am not... I think it is more about the Rs mantra that the ACA was a train wreck. Now they have to repeal it or they will look bad and their egos will be bruised.

If there was no tax hike in the ACA, this wouldn't even be an issue? No. They would still be trying to repeal it.

Either way, they are sooooo screwed.

Huh? The republicans are the ones touting how important it is to REPEAL it. If they wanted some lame political victory, they could make minor modifications to ACA, rename it, then champion how great it is for the next few months and call it a day.

They would be taking the hardest route possible to earning brownie points from their base. That's not what's going on here.

The Republicans really do have actual philosophical objections. They aren't being all that honest about it though. The problem is clear - removal of the ACA makes those most vulnerable far less likely to get health insurance.

The adult answer would be to accept that the ACA is law of the land, an then to look for conservative improvements to this. That is not occurring, unfortunately. Maybe this happens once the Ryan bill collapses.

Trump, through his campaign and since he's been elected, alone, has proven that GOP congress critters are not even remotely principled. Like, it's not even within the realm of possibility.

GOP/neocon ideology is literally a scam. The Breitbart crazies are at least forthright in what they believe in.

[gtn130]

It's amazing that people still believe there are earnest, well-meaning Republicans in significant number who want to better society for everyone.

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

[sfam]

It's amazing that people still believe there are earnest, well-meaning Republicans in significant number who want to better society for everyone.

I believe this is true - I think most people running for office are doing so for positive reasons, even if they are Republican. I see most of the problems with our politics as systemic, more than personal. That said, the opposition mentality in place really makes it difficult to get anything done. That the Republicans are no longer fact-based certainly hurts their chances of actually making real change. Facts still matter. Beliefs are great and all, but if not validated, leads to pretty bad policy.

[dckingsfan]

is everyone sufficiently convinced yet that repealing Obamacare is all about tax cuts for donors and not much else?

I am not... I think it is more about the Rs mantra that the ACA was a train wreck. Now they have to repeal it or they will look bad and their egos will be bruised.

If there was no tax hike in the ACA, this wouldn't even be an issue? No. They would still be trying to repeal it.

Either way, they are sooooo screwed.

Huh? The republicans are the ones touting how important it is to REPEAL it. If they wanted some lame political victory, they could make minor modifications to ACA, rename it, then champion how great it is for the next few months and call it a day.

They would be taking the hardest route possible to earning brownie points from their base. That's not what's going on here.

This is complete opinion. And I am consolidating the views of multiple R factions. So, I guess I am wrong by default.

I still think The Repeal (capital R) is the political symbol they are shooting for... the taxes are secondary (or even tertiary).

[dckingsfan]

It's amazing that people still believe there are earnest, well-meaning Republicans in significant number who want to better society for everyone.

I believe this is true - I think most people running for office are doing so for positive reasons, even if they are Republican. I see most of the problems with our politics as systemic, more than personal. That said, the opposition mentality in place really makes it difficult to get anything done. That the Republicans are no longer fact-based certainly hurts their chances of actually making real change. Facts still matter. Beliefs are great and all, but if not validated, leads to pretty bad policy.

This. It starts on the fiscal side. If you are a D or R, you are so constrained as to what you can actually accomplish now, it is almost quite silly.

[FAH1223]

:nonono:

Read on Twitter

The rich and the insurance companies are coming out like bandits.

Top 1% getting richer and richer

[Wizardspride]

:nonono:

Read on Twitter

The rich and the insurance companies are coming out like bandits.

Top 1% getting richer and richer

According to Paul Ryan this is all about "freedom"

[popper]

It's amazing that people still believe there are earnest, well-meaning Republicans in significant number who want to better society for everyone.

Good lord. It's amazing that you believe that a significant number of approximately half of the country (including me) does not strive to be earnest or well-meaning. This thread should be renamed " Roundtable of Progressive Demonization of Alternative Political Views." Ignorance personified IMO.

[Wizardspride]

It's amazing that people still believe there are earnest, well-meaning Republicans in significant number who want to better society for everyone.

Good lord. It's amazing that you believe that a significant number of approximately half of the country (including me) does not strive to be earnest or well-meaning. This thread should be renamed " Roundtable of Progressive Demonization of Alternative Political Views." Ignorance personified IMO.

Nevermind.

[verbal8]

Read on Twitter

Steve King tells us clearly what the problem is. He means this is OUR country - white people country. Yes, we have some brown skinned people here, but we don't want any more. This somewhat at odds with the notion of America as the melting pot. If you don't have native American indians in your blood, you're an immigrant. The culture that exists here is fueled by assimilating immigrants. It has never been a static culture - it has always been vibrant and changing.

America was not founded as a "melting pot". That is historically inaccurate.

It was settled by mostly Anglos, Celtics and Germans and remained that way (with the obvious exception of African slaves) from the 1600's through 1880. The nation was founded by almost exclusively Anglo, Celtic and German Protestants, its Constitution was written by Anglo, Celtic and German Protestants, it's wars of independence were fought by Anglo, Celtic and German Protestants, the lands to the west were taken and consolidated by Anglo, Celtic and German Protestants. The cultural traditions and government policies were developed by Anglo, Celtic and German Protestants.

The Germans and British really seemed to have a shared culture about 35 years after the time period you mention. So since women were pretty much excluded from politics during that time period, I guess they would be excluded from being included in the "true" American history. Also factors other than the people currently involved in the politics will influence a culture. The Greek and Romans who died centuries before were an influence. The labor of the African American slaves made much of the economy of the South possible, even if you attempt to ignore their real influences in to the culture and the future of the country.

And the notion that if you're not a native American, you are an "immigrant" is silly.

It may show how silly the concept of an immigrant is in a country where at some point our ancestors generally came from somewhere else.

[gtn130]

It's amazing that people still believe there are earnest, well-meaning Republicans in significant number who want to better society for everyone.

I believe this is true - I think most people running for office are doing so for positive reasons, even if they are Republican. I see most of the problems with our politics as systemic, more than personal. That said, the opposition mentality in place really makes it difficult to get anything done. That the Republicans are no longer fact-based certainly hurts their chances of actually making real change. Facts still matter. Beliefs are great and all, but if not validated, leads to pretty bad policy.

Well, I was referring specifically to Republicans in office - I'm sure there are many naive young Republicans out there who think trickle-down economics isn't a scam on poor people. Paul Ryan, though, doesn't believe the words that come out of his mouth.

Neocons are neocons because:

A. they're millionaires
B. they're suckers

[gtn130]

It's amazing that people still believe there are earnest, well-meaning Republicans in significant number who want to better society for everyone.

Good lord. It's amazing that you believe that a significant number of approximately half of the country (including me) does not strive to be earnest or well-meaning. This thread should be renamed " Roundtable of Progressive Demonization of Alternative Political Views." Ignorance personified IMO.

lol popper

[gtn130]

I am not... I think it is more about the Rs mantra that the ACA was a train wreck. Now they have to repeal it or they will look bad and their egos will be bruised.

If there was no tax hike in the ACA, this wouldn't even be an issue? No. They would still be trying to repeal it.

Either way, they are sooooo screwed.

Huh? The republicans are the ones touting how important it is to REPEAL it. If they wanted some lame political victory, they could make minor modifications to ACA, rename it, then champion how great it is for the next few months and call it a day.

They would be taking the hardest route possible to earning brownie points from their base. That's not what's going on here.

This is complete opinion. And I am consolidating the views of multiple R factions. So, I guess I am wrong by default.

I still think The Repeal (capital R) is the political symbol they are shooting for... the taxes are secondary (or even tertiary).

It's also your opinion that Republicans would be steadfast in their efforts to repeal ACA even if it didn't involve a hefty tax cut for their donors.

That said, remember when you believed repealing ACA wouldn't result in a tax cut at all?

Additionally - it's laughable and completely incorrect when people intimate that there is this massive, organic groundswell among R voters to repeal ACA. The outrage over ACA stems 100% from the Republican arm of the media telling their viewers how awful ACA is for the last eight years! It stems from Ted Cruz shamelessly filibustering for hours and hours. It stems from every Republican representative, pundit, talking head and radio personality lambasting the law for nearly a decade now.

Is any of that good for their constituents? is any of that done in good faith? Will lives be improved by repealing ACA? We know the answers here.

Republicans are not acting in good faith. They are nefarious. Our current political climate is partly to blame, but an ideology that is incompatible with mainstream populism is just as much at fault here.

[FAH1223]

:nonono:

Read on Twitter

The rich and the insurance companies are coming out like bandits.

Top 1% getting richer and richer

According to Paul Ryan this is all about "freedom"

And "choice"

Read on Twitter

[Induveca]

Good to know all conservatives are evil. Great insight.

Hate the President all you want, but don't extend that to those who voted for him. His message rang true to half of voters, and even more so geographically.

Don't forget the democrats ran a toxic woman as their candidate, who somehow was equally as disliked as Trump.

Liberals labeling their fellow citizens as evil, purely due to them voting Republican is self-serving at best, reckless at worst.

Those at the polls weren't exactly choosing between an S-class or 7-series at the polls. Both sides ran toxic candidates.

[dckingsfan]

Huh? The republicans are the ones touting how important it is to REPEAL it. If they wanted some lame political victory, they could make minor modifications to ACA, rename it, then champion how great it is for the next few months and call it a day.

They would be taking the hardest route possible to earning brownie points from their base. That's not what's going on here.

This is complete opinion. And I am consolidating the views of multiple R factions. So, I guess I am wrong by default.

I still think The Repeal (capital R) is the political symbol they are shooting for... the taxes are secondary (or even tertiary).

It's also your opinion that Republicans would be steadfast in their efforts to repeal ACA even if it didn't involve a hefty tax cut for their donors.

That said, remember when you believed repealing ACA wouldn't result in a tax cut at all?

Additionally - it's laughable and completely incorrect when people intimate that there is this massive, organic groundswell among R voters to repeal ACA. The outrage over ACA stems 100% from the Republican arm of the media telling their viewers how awful ACA is for the last eight years! It stems from Ted Cruz shamelessly filibustering for hours and hours. It stems from every Republican representative, pundit, talking head and radio personality lambasting the law for nearly a decade now.

Is any of that good for their constituents? is any of that done in good faith? Will lives be improved by repealing ACA? We know the answers here.

Republicans are not acting in good faith. They are nefarious. Our current political climate is partly to blame, but an ideology that is incompatible with mainstream populism is just as much at fault here.

gtn, am I a Republican? No. So, start there.

Do you understand how are current tax structure hurts growth and additional revenues that we need? Can you wrap your head around that one? I need to know before we continue the debate.

Do the Rs want to cut taxes. Yes. Is that a good move? It depends on how it is done. Do I understand that just a straight cut to taxes in our current system makes the system even less sustainable? Yes.

Do I care what Ted Cruz says, no. That is dribble. Sorry.

What parts of the ACA did I say were bad? Which parts did I say were good?

Can we have a nuanced conversation or does it just have to be back to the "they are evil" conversation? Maybe you believe that ~ 1/3 of the population actually is evil (1/3 R, 1/3 D, 1/3 Other). If so, I would suggest you actually go out and have a conversation with one of them.