Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2)

[hands11]

F*** that S**** I ain't eating S***. All these years of incompetence, all the blown assets and I'm expected to forget? B***S****!

If anything the folks that have dogged Wall, questioned his work ethic, bitched & whined that he should be traded, that he is what he is and won't get any better....those are the real ones that should taste some crow.

Exactly. Grunfeld isn't the person that turned this franchise around. John Wall is the person that turned this franchise around. Without him, this roster is old and underwhelming. And I sure as hell am not going to kiss Grunfail's ass for making that pick on draft night.

So there's a new and different twist -- John Wall is basically a one-man team and would have turned the Zards into a winning franchise regardless of the players he was surrounded by. Really?

Time for another round of rehashing that will get ignored but AGAIN ....

They also did things so they were in a position to luck out and get that #1 pick. And for the record, they have done TONS to develop Wall though coaching and the players they put around him to help him develop. If not for what they have done, we could be seeing a very different John Wall.

They have done great in regards to his player development. Ted, EG, Randy, they all helped to get Wall to where he is today.

[DCZards]

Uh pretty much. Wall is that good...all he needed was semi-competent talent surrounding him for this team to succeed. Same thing applies for most franchise players. I mean honestly Zards...is anyone else on this team even remotely all-star worthy except for Wall? Beal is improving, but he's not there yet. Everyone else on the team are journeymen.

Umm...so you better tell Paul Pierce he has no shot at the HOF because he's a "journeyman."

Wait...now that I think about it....you're actually giving EG high praise by suggesting that he took Wall and a bunch of "journeymen" and put together one of the top 10-12 teams in the NBA. That's some damn good general managing.

[dckingsfan]

Seasons: 15
Playoffs: 7
Division Titles: 1
Conference Titles: 0
NBA Titles: 0

Number of seasons with more than 45 wins: 0

Dagger

[TGW]

So how many franchise players have Ernie passed on?

Was this supposed to be in the green font?

Ernie passed on LeBron, Durant, Anthony Davis, Rose, Wade, CP3, Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, Duncan, ...the list of franchise players Ernie passed over gets longer each draft. Russel, Bird, Magic, Wilt....damn you Ernie

If you reach any harder, you might pull every muscle in your flimsy body!

[TGW]

Umm...so you better tell Paul Pierce he has no shot at the HOF because he's a "journeyman."

Stop reaching Zards. You know damn well I'm talking about this year.

Wait...now that I think about it....you're actually giving EG high praise by suggesting that he took Wall and a bunch of "journeymen" and put together one of the top 10-12 teams in the NBA. That's some damn good general managing.

No, I said Wall took a bunch of journeyman and made them a top 10-15 team. Grunfeld gets no credit for picking Wall with the #1 pick. Just like no one gives credit to Jim Paxson for drafting Lebron #1.

[DCZards]

No, I said Wall took a bunch of journeyman and made them a top 10-15 team. Grunfeld gets no credit for picking Wall with the #1 pick. Just like no one gives credit to Jim Paxson for drafting Lebron #1.

So, in your world, EG gets a ton of blame (as he should) for drafting Ves, Singleton, etc., for signing Maynor, and for trading a top pick for Foye and Miller. But he gets no credit whatsoever for trading for and signing Gortat, bringing in Pierce on a good contract instead of signing Ariza to a bigger, longer contract, and picking up a journeyman (Butler) who has been a major contributor.

I might also mention that EG traded Maynor for "The Professor" who is still schooling opponents and he got Hump and Blair on good deals, all of which has helped to make the Zards one of the deepest teams in the NBA.

But yet, in your view, no props whatsoever for EG. The way you see it all the credit for the Zards success goes to the presence of John Wall. Do you realize how silly that sounds?

[milellie111]

No, I said Wall took a bunch of journeyman and made them a top 10-15 team. Grunfeld gets no credit for picking Wall with the #1 pick. Just like no one gives credit to Jim Paxson for drafting Lebron #1.

So, in your world, EG gets a ton of blame (as he should) for drafting Ves, Singleton, etc., for signing Maynor, and for trading a top pick for Foye and Miller. But he gets no credit whatsoever for trading for and signing Gortat, bringing in Pierce on a good contract instead of signing Ariza to a bigger, longer contract, and picking up a journeyman (Butler) who has been a major contributor.

I might also mention that EG traded Maynor for "The Professor" who is still schooling opponents and he got Hump and Blair on good deals, all of which has helped to make the Zards one of the deepest teams in the NBA.

But yet, in your view, no props whatsoever for EG. The way you see it all the credit for the Zards success goes to the presence of John Wall. Do you realize how silly that sounds?

[TGW]

So, in your world, EG gets a ton of blame (as he should) for drafting Ves, Singleton, etc., for signing Maynor, and for trading a top pick for Foye and Miller. But he gets no credit whatsoever for trading for and signing Gortat, bringing in Pierce on a good contract instead of signing Ariza to a bigger, longer contract, and picking up a journeyman (Butler) who has been a major contributor.

We can go back and forth on these moves, Zards, but they are not franchise-altering moves. They are all journeymen veteran players who have benefited from Wall's exceptional talents. The Suns didn't want Gortat, Butler was signed off the scrap heap, and Pierce is 37. It's not hard to fill your roster with these type of players.

I might also mention that EG traded Maynor for "The Professor" who is still schooling opponents and he got Hump and Blair on good deals, all of which has helped to make the Zards one of the deepest teams in the NBA.

No EG traded Vesely for the Professor. Despite how solid Miller still is, at 38 he's not worth a lottery pick, which is what Vesely was.

Humphries and Blair are both journeymen...Hump is decent and Blair has been non-existent. Again, these guys aren't hidden gems. They are vets who were able to cling on to a team with a great point guard.

But yet, in your view, no props whatsoever for EG. The way you see it all the credit for the Zards success goes to the presence of John Wall. Do you realize how silly that sounds?

You can call it silly all you want. If you want some visual proof here it is:



15 is average. The three most productive players on this team after Wall are 30, 37 and 38 respectively. You think that's good GM'ing?

Take Wall off the team and (aside from Beal) it's literally a bunch of outcasts, journeymen, and scrap heap players.

[DCZards]

Take Wall off the team and (aside from Beal) it's literally a bunch of outcasts, journeymen, and scrap heap players.

TGW, you can criticize the makeup of the team, the ages of the players, etc. But the only # that matters is 17 wins, 6 loses. So props to EG for the "winning" combination of outcasts, journeymen, scrap heap players that he's surrounded the "Great Wall" with.

[TGW]

Take Wall off the team and (aside from Beal) it's literally a bunch of outcasts, journeymen, and scrap heap players.

TGW, you can criticize the makeup of the team, the ages of the players, etc. But the only # that matters is 17 wins, 6 loses. So props to EG for the "winning" team of outcasts, journeymen, scrap heap players that he's surrounded the "Great Wall" with.

Yes, good job by EG building this December powerhouse. Thank goodness for these borderline superstars Andre Miller and Rasual Butler. How will EG manage to replace these generational talents once their time is up?

You were defending Eddie Jordan the same way, and now he's not even coaching in the league anymore.

[milellie111]

Take Wall off the team and (aside from Beal) it's literally a bunch of outcasts, journeymen, and scrap heap players.

TGW, you can criticize the makeup of the team, the ages of the players, etc. But the only # that matters is 17 wins, 6 loses. So props to EG for the "winning" team of outcasts, journeymen, scrap heap players that he's surrounded the "Great Wall" with.

If Grunfeld can get a team bunch of outcasts, journeymen, scrap heap players surrounded only by John Wall to 17-6, then I retract my previous statement of Great GM. He is a Master GM!

[hands11]

No, I said Wall took a bunch of journeyman and made them a top 10-15 team. Grunfeld gets no credit for picking Wall with the #1 pick. Just like no one gives credit to Jim Paxson for drafting Lebron #1.

So, in your world, EG gets a ton of blame (as he should) for drafting Ves, Singleton, etc., for signing Maynor, and for trading a top pick for Foye and Miller. But he gets no credit whatsoever for trading for and signing Gortat, bringing in Pierce on a good contract instead of signing Ariza to a bigger, longer contract, and picking up a journeyman (Butler) who has been a major contributor.

I might also mention that EG traded Maynor for "The Professor" who is still schooling opponents and he got Hump and Blair on good deals, all of which has helped to make the Zards one of the deepest teams in the NBA.

But yet, in your view, no props whatsoever for EG. The way you see it all the credit for the Zards success goes to the presence of John Wall. Do you realize how silly that sounds?

[TGW]

[fishercob]

Ugh. I am not an Ernie Grunfeld fan, but TGW, your arguments are so bad that I cannot help but refute them.

So, in your world, EG gets a ton of blame (as he should) for drafting Ves, Singleton, etc., for signing Maynor, and for trading a top pick for Foye and Miller. But he gets no credit whatsoever for trading for and signing Gortat, bringing in Pierce on a good contract instead of signing Ariza to a bigger, longer contract, and picking up a journeyman (Butler) who has been a major contributor.

We can go back and forth on these moves, Zards, but they are not franchise-altering moves. They are all journeymen veteran players who have benefited from Wall's exceptional talents. The Suns didn't want Gortat, Butler was signed off the scrap heap, and Pierce is 37. It's not hard to fill your roster with these type of players.

So, Ernie doesn't deserve the credit for his successes the same way he deserves blame for his failures because the successes don't alter the franchise. Firstly, that's just dumb logic. But secondly, the narrative around the Wizards is changing as a result of their success in the standings. That's why national media are discussing the league MVP potentially leaving his current and only team to join the Wizards. Two seasons ago the Wizards started 3-20. Now they;re 17-6. How can you argue the franchise hasn't been altered?

Crediting just Wall and not the franchise/Ernie for the Wizards success strikes me as a false dichotomy. The franchise over which Ernie presides is the same one that developed Wall and put him with players who would allow him to develop and flourish on and off the floor.

Why would you hold the fact that Butler was signed off the scrap heap against Ernie when Butler is producing like an All-Star? This defies all logic and comprehension.

I might also mention that EG traded Maynor for "The Professor" who is still schooling opponents and he got Hump and Blair on good deals, all of which has helped to make the Zards one of the deepest teams in the NBA.

No EG traded Vesely for the Professor. Despite how solid Miller still is, at 38 he's not worth a lottery pick, which is what Vesely was.

Humphries and Blair are both journeymen...Hump is decent and Blair has been non-existent. Again, these guys aren't hidden gems. They are vets who were able to cling on to a team with a great point guard.

Vesely was a terrible pick, yes. But he was a sunk cost and once he was, trading him and ridding the team of Maynor for Miller was a great move. That's completely obvious.

But yet, in your view, no props whatsoever for EG. The way you see it all the credit for the Zards success goes to the presence of John Wall. Do you realize how silly that sounds?

You can call it silly all you want. If you want some visual proof here it is:



15 is average. The three most productive players on this team after Wall are 30, 37 and 38 respectively. You think that's good GM'ing?

Take Wall off the team and (aside from Beal) it's literally a bunch of outcasts, journeymen, and scrap heap players.

[/quote]

Dude, if you;re going to try to use stats to back up your argument, you should at least understand what you're talking about. PER is a terrible metric that basically rewards guys who shoot a lot, even if they miss. While WS/48 is far from perfect, it at least takes efficiency into account. Beal and Porter, both 21, are both putting up about average WS/48. The veteran talent and depth around them is allowing them to develop at a reasonable pace -- to be a part of a winning culture, see what it takes to succeed, etc. Would it be better if we were a .500 team somehow?

Ernie is deserved of criticism. But if you want anyone to believe you're anything more than an agenda-driven anti-fan, you have to acknowledge the guy deserves a degree of credit for the team's success. If you think his recent questionable moves -- the Seraphin QO, for instance -- somehow hamper the team's ability to grow going forward, then explain how. Convince us with something other than PER.

[dckingsfan]

So, in your world, EG gets a ton of blame (as he should) for drafting Ves, Singleton, etc., for signing Maynor, and for trading a top pick for Foye and Miller. But he gets no credit whatsoever for trading for and signing Gortat, bringing in Pierce on a good contract instead of signing Ariza to a bigger, longer contract, and picking up a journeyman (Butler) who has been a major contributor.

I might also mention that EG traded Maynor for "The Professor" who is still schooling opponents and he got Hump and Blair on good deals, all of which has helped to make the Zards one of the deepest teams in the NBA.

But yet, in your view, no props whatsoever for EG. The way you see it all the credit for the Zards success goes to the presence of John Wall. Do you realize how silly that sounds?

Like that you and Millie are posting in the correct thread

[payitforward]

Despite being on the job for 16 years, the mastermind only has 1 division title on his resume.

According to the chart, that's still one more than your boy Morey!

Game. Set. Match

The fact is correct, the conclusion is not correct. Or perhaps you'd like to say it straight out: "LyricalRico says Ernie Grunfield is a better GM than Darryl Morey."

I'll be sure to quote you to that effect henceforth. How about Sam Presti? Is he better than Presti too? Better than Ujiri up in Toronto? Better than all the rest? Whatcha think?

[TGW]

So, Ernie doesn't deserve the credit for his successes the same way he deserves blame for his failures because the successes don't alter the franchise. Firstly, that's just dumb logic. But secondly, the narrative around the Wizards is changing as a result of their success in the standings. That's why national media are discussing the league MVP potentially leaving his current and only team to join the Wizards.

I've already said the same thing several times...what's so hard to comprehend? Grunfeld deserves blame for not maximizing his resources. It's why the team depends on Rasual Butler and Miller, when they could have....a myriad of other, younger more productive players. I'm not going to go into that because it's well documented.

Two seasons ago the Wizards started 3-20. Now they;re 17-6. How can you argue the franchise hasn't been altered?

So being 17-6 automatically disqualifies the 39% winning percentage? Try again Fish...I ain't drinkin' that kool-aid.

Crediting just Wall and not the franchise/Ernie for the Wizards success strikes me as a false dichotomy. The franchise over which Ernie presides is the same one that developed Wall and put him with players who would allow him to develop and flourish on and off the floor.

Or maybe it's just Wall getting better? Isn't that the natural progression of most players in the league, whether they play for the a good franchise or a terrible one? I'd say that is more likely than the belief that Wittman and Cassell and Flip Saunders, etc. made Wall a better player.

Why would you hold the fact that Butler was signed off the scrap heap against Ernie when Butler is producing like an All-Star? This defies all logic and comprehension.

When was I holding that against Grunfeld? I merely said that Butler is a scrap head player is he wasn't some gem Grunfeld found out of nowhere. I'll concede that Grunfeld signed the right scrap heap player, but I honestly don't think Butler is doing anything differently than what Webster did this exact time a few years ago. If you want to suck Ernie's dingaling over it is up to you, but these types of players produce all the time.

Vesely was a terrible pick, yes. But he was a sunk cost and once he was, trading him and ridding the team of Maynor for Miller was a great move. That's completely obvious.

Replacing Maynor and Vesely with just about anyone would have been a great move.

Dude, if you;re going to try to use stats to back up your argument, you should at least understand what you're talking about. PER is a terrible metric that basically rewards guys who shoot a lot, even if they miss. While WS/48 is far from perfect, it at least takes efficiency into account. Beal and Porter, both 21, are both putting up about average WS/48. The veteran talent and depth around them is allowing them to develop at a reasonable pace -- to be a part of a winning culture, see what it takes to succeed, etc. Would it be better if we were a .500 team somehow?

If PER was a terrible metric, it wouldn't be used...period. Take it up with the NBA if you think it's terrible.

Ernie is deserved of criticism. But if you want anyone to believe you're anything more than an agenda-driven anti-fan, you have to acknowledge the guy deserves a degree of credit for the team's success. If you think his recent questionable moves -- the Seraphin QO, for instance -- somehow hamper the team's ability to grow going forward, then explain how. Convince us with something other than PER.

If you don't like my stance Fish, put me on ignore. Other than that, I don't have to convince you of ****. I've already made my point in this thread. If you don't agree, then we disagree.

[payitforward]

So how many franchise players have Ernie passed on?

Was this supposed to be in the green font?

Ernie passed on LeBron, Durant, Anthony Davis, Rose, Wade, CP3, Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, Duncan, ...the list of franchise players Ernie passed over gets longer each draft. Russel, Bird, Magic, Wilt....damn you Ernie

Well, Brenice, inasmuch as you brought the subject up -- how many of Ernie's drafts have been successful?

Lets see.. in the last 6 drafts, with a #5 pick, a #1 pick, a #17 pick, a #23 pick, a #6 pick, a #18 pick, a #34 pick, a # 3 pick, a #31 pick, a #46 pick, another #3 pick, a #38 pick and a #46 pick -- how many good players did Ernie acquire?

Three: John Wall (w/ a #1 pick -- the hardest pick in the draft to screw up, and which he got by ping pong ball luck), Bradley Beal (good pick -- excellent work Ernie!) and Otto Porter (again a gift of ping pong ball luck -- but we hope he'll be good).

Quite a haul, huh? And as you point out, we didn't really pass on any good players: just Stephen Curry, Kawhi Leonard, Kenneth Faried, Chandler Parsons, Jae Crowder, Kyle O'Quinn, etc. etc. etc.

[ZaelleDC]

I don't post much but read a lot. A few Wiz buddies of mine browse these threads frequently and we were all discussing how a lot of facts here presented make GM Ernie look better at his job than most give him credit for. Just look at the team now and all the buzz. The GM bought these players here and turned this franchise around. Only someone who doesn't know too much about the game of basketball would want him gone. 99 percent of Wiz fans I come across are satisfied with the team going into the future. Seems like just a few stragglers here are stuck in the Stone Age and don't want to catch up with time. Oh well.

[payitforward]

Oh man, So predictable.

That is pretty much word for word where I said they would go next.

It's true Hands, you really are so predictable.

And, how great for you to be right again!! You're right every time you post here, aren't you?

It's just a shame Ernie didn't follow your advice and pick Alex Len over Otto Porter, huh? Oh... wait a minute, now you like Porter -- and that is "pretty much word for word" the way you operate.

Or go for Marcus Morris -- your choice @#6 in 2011. But you don't remember listing him as your #1 guy for us at that spot do you?

You're a stitch, amigo, really! Why don't you go back and take a look at what you were writing about this team in October?

Or go back and read yourself calling for Ernie's head about the middle of last season. Complaining bitterly about the trade for Gortat.

Whatever way the wind blows, there's Hands with his sails full saying he always knew it'd be this way.

It's so innocent and ignorant, it's kind of appealing. Keep it up Hands, keep it up.