Official Trade Thread - Part XXVII

[TGW]

I totally agree with your skittishness on Nene. If we could trade him for Perkins, we should do it, even if we don't get Lamb coming back.

However, if we pull off that trade, I'd avoid locking up long term cap on Ersan. I'd trade Webster for straight cap relief if possible (New Orleans might do it), or for a 2015 contract. At PF, I'd just make do with Gooden and Booker and set ourselves for big cap room in 2015. Having cap room in 2015 gives us a lot of negotiating leverage in Trade Deadline deals for upcoming free agents.

I think you would HAVE to go and get someone like Ersan to fill the void you would create by dealing Nene. We need a credible starting PF. If you deal Nene for Perkins, I definitely don't think you get out of the first round next year. And you legitimately risk falling back out of the playoffs. That would be a disaster. We need to be searching for ways to step forward, not backwards.

That's a legitimate concern but (as most of us have griped about for months) we don't have any assets to make that next step other than a 2nd round pick and the MLE. Hell, it'll be an accomplishment if they manage to bring back Ariza and Gortat. Unless Grunfeld does magic with that pick/MLE AND manages to bring those 2 players back, this this team is not going to be any better than a second round victim.

Right now, Gortat and Ariza are not members of this team...or at least that's how the FO should view them until they've resigned. With that premise, they should absolutely shop Nene and see if anything worth a damn is offered. With no asset other than the MLE, Grunfail is going to have to get greative (and we know that's not his strong suit).

[jivelikenice]

If the FO is really afraid to make a run at someone in FA, maybe the way to go is look for that 3rd piece (ideally a young PF) in the draft. It seems as though teams are willing to shop picks so availability shouldn't be an issue. It won't be easy but probably not as difficult as signing a premiere FA (in their eyes). You can keep the current nucleus in tact while a rookie develops. We could trade our '15 1st round selection. What would need to be included in addition to that to make a deal?

[nate33]

I totally agree with your skittishness on Nene. If we could trade him for Perkins, we should do it, even if we don't get Lamb coming back.

However, if we pull off that trade, I'd avoid locking up long term cap on Ersan. I'd trade Webster for straight cap relief if possible (New Orleans might do it), or for a 2015 contract. At PF, I'd just make do with Gooden and Booker and set ourselves for big cap room in 2015. Having cap room in 2015 gives us a lot of negotiating leverage in Trade Deadline deals for upcoming free agents.

I think you would HAVE to go and get someone like Ersan to fill the void you would create by dealing Nene. We need a credible starting PF. If you deal Nene for Perkins, I definitely don't think you get out of the first round next year. And you legitimately risk falling back out of the playoffs. That would be a disaster. We need to be searching for ways to step forward, not backwards.

I disagree. I don't think the team was much worse with Booker and Gooden holding down the PF spot, than they were with Nene - except during the 15 or so games of the season when Nene was fully healthy and moving well.

Overall, it would only be a modest downgrade, hopefully offset by organic improvement from Wall, Beal and Porter. If it means we win just 44 games again next year, and this time get beat in the first round, so be it. I'd accept that modest backslide to open up the door for many free agent possibilities and trade possibilities in 2015.

[TGW]

I guess the question needs to be asked--did this team overachieve in a weak conference, or are they on the cusp of actually competing for a title? If you feel they are on the cusp, then status quo (plus a better bench) is what they should aim for. Hope that Wall and/or Beal are elite, and stay the course. If you don't well...anyone outside of those two are bait.

[nate33]

The solution to "who is better than Love" could be two players who make as much as Love will. Recently, both Cousins and Aldridge flirted with demanding a trade, and Howard went to Houston. I think Aldridge is better than Love, and I think the playoffs have proved my point -- but that argument has been had. Cousins could explode. A draft pick could explode. Noah could demand a trade or just become a free agent. We had this same argument over "who could be better than Ersan that we could get?"

It's pointless to target guys like Cousins (or Drummond) who are still on their rookie deals and therefore will be restricted free agents. Their teams have too much leverage in retaining them. Good draft picks stay with their teams for a minimum of 7 years. That's the way the CBA works. So the only way to acquire top tier talent while they're still reasonably young is to look at upcoming unrestricted free agents. We pretty much know who that is: Love, Durant, Horford, Noah, Hibbert. That's about it. Of that crew, Durant is obviously the best. The next best guy is either Love or Horford, and Love is the one who is actually sure to leave his team. (I'm not too excited about going after a 30-year-old, injury prone Noah in 2016.)

There's also the issue of Wall and Beal. We're going to run out of flexibility after 2016 because both of those guys will be locked into gigantic deals by then. Our only real window of opportunity is Summer 2015 and Summer 2016. The only under-28 franchise-changing guys available then are the guys that I mentioned. One of them is on the market now. It would be foolish to not even try to get him.

[Dark Faze]

I guess the question needs to be asked--did this team overachieve in a weak conference, or are they on the cusp of actually competing for a title? If you feel they are on the cusp, then status quo (plus a better bench) is what they should aim for. Hope that Wall and/or Beal are elite, and stay the course. If you don't well...anyone outside of those two are bait.

we're a little bit of both

As a regular season team we're fraudulent and just slightly above average due to our injury woes and inconsistency

In the playoffs we're a tough out for anyone because we get our guys healthy for those matchups and when we absolutely have to get wins and know we're playing against you 4, 5 times we've got the sort of depth that allows us to find a way to attack a weakness in almost anyone

We'll make the playoffs again. Just a matter of if we take a first round L or not. Making the playoffs is still good enough to keep Durant and other free agents interested as long as our young guys have shown improvement.

[barelyawake]

The solution to "who is better than Love" could be two players who make as much as Love will. Recently, both Cousins and Aldridge flirted with demanding a trade, and Howard went to Houston. I think Aldridge is better than Love, and I think the playoffs have proved my point -- but that argument has been had. Cousins could explode. A draft pick could explode. Noah could demand a trade or just become a free agent. We had this same argument over "who could be better than Ersan that we could get?"

It's pointless to target guys like Cousins (or Drummond) who are still on their rookie deals and therefore will be restricted free agents. Their teams have too much leverage in retaining them. Good draft picks stay with their teams for a minimum of 7 years. That's the way the CBA works. So the only way to acquire top tier talent while they're still reasonably young is to look at upcoming unrestricted free agents. We pretty much know who that is: Love, Durant, Horford, Noah, Hibbert. That's about it. Of that crew, Durant is obviously the best. The next best guy is either Love or Horford, and Love is the one who is actually sure to leave his team. (I'm not too excited about going after a 30-year-old, injury prone Noah in 2016.)

There's also the issue of Wall and Beal. We're going to run out of flexibility after 2016 because both of those guys will be locked into gigantic deals by then. Our only real window of opportunity is Summer 2015 and Summer 2016. The only under-28 franchise-changing guys available then are the guys that I mentioned. One of them is on the market now. It would be foolish to not even try to get him.

A) We don't know who will explode in the next year. There are more possible than what you list. And I was talking about trade demands. And as I said, it could be a combo of players (say we trade Beal for a top pick in 2015 and also sign a top free agent).
B) I meant trading for draft picks. What if you trade Beal for Love, and the 2015 draft ends up being better than this one? That has been predicted btw.
C) And finally, we actually have a better shot at Love if we wait a year -- for the reasons mentioned (which amount to we have no shot of getting him now because we aren't trading Beal and he doesn't want to come here). Maybe Porter explodes next year. Then, we don't have to trade Beal. Maybe another playoff run puts us on his list as a free agent. You are arguing over hypothetical trades that won't happen -- again, for the reasons listed.

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

First off, Durant has a better chance of coming here than Love (some of that has to do with Love, some of that has to do with our management).

No. He doesn't. Love is definitely leaving Minnesota. At least he's going somewhere. Judging by his MVP speech, Durant is less than 50% likely to leave OKC.

Second, the articles about Love have been going on his entire career. At this point, the criticisms have come from multiple sources who have played with him or he has played for. We had this same argument on this board (I believe in this thread) six months ago, and a year ago.

The main "evidence" against Love being a bad "leader" is that he's not a closer. I think that's true. His style of offense is to score within the system. He's like a deluxe version of Antawn Jamison. Unfortunately, "system points" are harder to come by in final possessions because teams are managing the shot clock and/or they have less than a full shot clock to work with. Other than Dirk and perhaps Aldridge, there really aren't any big men who are "closers". You need a ball handler to be a closer. The bottom line is that we're never going to be a championship team unless one of Beal or Wall becomes that closer. (Though certainly, the job will be easier for them with Love out there spreading the floor.)

Thirdly, I didn't compare Love to Kwame. I compared arguments that disregarded mentality and focused only on regular season stats with one another.

Nevertheless, the comparison is really weak. Love is so much more productive than those guys that it's pretty ridiculous to even put them in the same paragraph.

As I said when this started, Love should be a fallback option...

Fallback from what? What other option is out there that is viable? Yes, we can cross our fingers and hope for the 5% chance that we can get Durant to come here, but we will have lost out on a much better opportunity to grab Love first.

I can sympathize with those who don't want to sacrifice Beal to get Love, particularly without any agreement for an extension. But EG absolutely should be on the phone offering just about everyone else for him. Offer Porter, Nene, Webster, future 1sts, Booker, absorb bad contracts - whatever it takes to get a starting five of Wall, Beal, Ariza, Love and Gortat.

Answered these to Dark, but figured I'd add a little. You are basically asking me who do I think is better than Love who is available. My answer is you have no idea who will be available, who will develop, and how good those entering the NBA in the next couple years will prove to be. The solution to "who is better than Love" could be two players who make as much as Love will. Recently, both Cousins and Aldridge flirted with demanding a trade, and Howard went to Houston. I think Aldridge is better than Love, and I think the playoffs have proved my point -- but that argument has been had. Cousins could explode. A draft pick could explode. Noah could demand a trade or just become a free agent. We had this same argument over "who could be better than Ersan that we could get?" Well, now that answer is possibly Love. The answer will be different in two years. Hell, in the realm of possible is Love suddenly maturing and loving defense too. Maybe his lack of effort (on defense and late in games) is based on him knowing he can't win with his team. Possible.

I don't believe Love is the perfect fit as a pillar (mostly because he is lacking in the things that win championships -- leadership, drive, defense, mental toughness, ref respect, crunch time game etc). And that list is well documented by fans, writers, management, coaches, players and his friends. And you don't get Love (in trade) without giving up Beal. And our management isn't trading Beal. And Love doesn't want to come here. So, by fallback I mean, wait a year, see if he becomes a free agent (maybe Minny can't find the right price and hopes for a sign and trade), see if we end up on his list, meanwhile gear the team to compete now while remaining flexible (for future free agents, draft picks, and especially Durant). Again, not putting all of our eggs in one basket, but waiting for the right situation.

Fish offered an interesting twist in asking could we acquire Love and then send him for Durant ultimately. Maybe. And it's a good point. The question then becomes what would OKC want if they ever traded Durant. If Love is the answer, then that would push the needle towards acquiring him. I'm unsure how realistic it would be for our org to acquire Love and then turn around and trade him. That doesn't seem like our M.O. But, anything that gets us closer to Durant coming here, I'm certainly in.

You should know by now that Love is the answer. It always is.

Anyway:

Nene + pick 'em (Webster/Porter) + 2016 1st + 2018 1st for Love.

Then use MLE for Okafor or another serviceable big... and fill the roster for years with guys with a bit of tread left on the tire who are willing to come here for the vet minimum to try for a championship.

[Dark Faze]

The 2015 draft is going to be terrible, but other than that I agree with your points

I don't think Love is going to demand a trade. It's clear that the best way to join a team and have said teams talent still intact is to just go there via free agency. When you demand a trade you put the team in a bad position. Rumor is Love wants Chicago or GS. He's not going to force a trade to GS if it costs them Thompson. Bogut is injured all the time and he'll be forced to play center next to Lee...it'll get him to the playoffs but that's it.

As for Chicago, he's not even their first choice. Word is they are looking hard at Melo and I think they will get him. That leaves LA and the Knicks. Cross of the Knicks because Knicks. Lakers are 50/50, but why give up this years draft choice in a trade when you can just sign him in the summer? The Lakers have made their entire franchise off of drafting a core part of their future and then bringing a free agent along with them. (Magic/Worthy + Kareem, Kobe + Shaq).

We might be one of the few teams crazy enough at the deadline to be willing to rent Love with no gaurantee of an extension. Nene, a 2015 1st, and Otto Porter for Love.

We do this because we know we can make noise with a core of Wall, Beal, Ariza, Love, Gorat in the playoffs, and that it'd be hard for him to leave such a successful group.

[Error Afflalo]

^ I'd do that deal in second, but we can't trade our 2015 1st.

[jivelikenice]

You could trade our '15 first after this draft is completed.

[barelyawake]

I totally agree with your skittishness on Nene. If we could trade him for Perkins, we should do it, even if we don't get Lamb coming back.

However, if we pull off that trade, I'd avoid locking up long term cap on Ersan. I'd trade Webster for straight cap relief if possible (New Orleans might do it), or for a 2015 contract. At PF, I'd just make do with Gooden and Booker and set ourselves for big cap room in 2015. Having cap room in 2015 gives us a lot of negotiating leverage in Trade Deadline deals for upcoming free agents.

I think you would HAVE to go and get someone like Ersan to fill the void you would create by dealing Nene. We need a credible starting PF. If you deal Nene for Perkins, I definitely don't think you get out of the first round next year. And you legitimately risk falling back out of the playoffs. That would be a disaster. We need to be searching for ways to step forward, not backwards.

I disagree. I don't think the team was much worse with Booker and Gooden holding down the PF spot, than they were with Nene - except during the 15 or so games of the season when Nene was fully healthy and moving well.

Overall, it would only be a modest downgrade, hopefully offset by organic improvement from Wall, Beal and Porter. If it means we win just 44 games again next year, and this time get beat in the first round, so be it. I'd accept that modest backslide to open up the door for many free agent possibilities and trade possibilities in 2015.

And on this we agree. In fact, I would make the same argument for not resigning Gortat and merely adding either a draft pick (via trade) or a short term vet. Both of which would increase our flexibility because Nene's contract ends sooner than a resigned Gortat. I understand the Nene health risk, but it's only another year (where we then could trade him as an expiring contract) and hopefully that fourth player is able pick up the slack. Again, this is why I thought targeting guys like Chandler should be an option. Chandler, Booker, Nene and bought draft pick gives us just as much of a chance next year as this year, and much more flexibility than most other outcomes. And if instead of Booker we get a discounted Okafor for cheaper and shorter, that might even give us more flex.

Trust me, I get the bias on here against older players. I always hear so and so is done, and it ends up they go to the finals and take over one or two games. We need to start thinking not about the regular season, but that these vets only need to be good for a few handfuls of games in the post season (and old folks can manage that). And yes, that line-up is an injury risk. But something like that combo, instead of Gortat, could help us get by one year (or two), and then really chase the big free agents (while we develop guys like Porter and Rice).

[montestewart]

The Lakers have made their entire franchise off of drafting a core part of their future and then bringing a free agent along with them. (Magic/Worthy + Kareem, Kobe + Shaq).

Jabbar came to the Lakers in trade in 1975, well before Magic or Worthy were there.

[fishercob]

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=pr3goq9

Booker v. Young v. Ilyasova -- Career
Booker v. Young V. Ilyasova -- This year

Booker is a free agent. Ilyasova is signed for 2 more years at $7.9M/yr. Young is signed for two more years at $9.4M and $10M. His final season is a player option.

Young is coming off a horrible season. He's very similar to Booker stylistically and in terms of overall production. He costs millions more than Book would. Ilyasova at least brings something different. If we're going to spend more on a 4, it should be on someone like Ersan or Anderson, not Young IMO.

[Dat2U]

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=pr3goq9

Booker v. Young v. Ilyasova -- Career
Booker v. Young V. Ilyasova -- This year

Booker is a free agent. Ilyasova is signed for 2 more years at $7.9M/yr. Young is signed for two more years at $9.4M and $10M. His final season is a player option.

Young is coming off a horrible season. He's very similar to Booker stylistically and in terms of overall production. He costs millions more than Book would. Ilyasova at least brings something different. If we're going to spend more on a 4, it should be on someone like Ersan or Anderson, not Young IMO.

I give Young a break because Philly was purposely tanking last year and he was forced to be a lead dog when he's really a complementary piece. IMO he's significantly better than Booker. I also think the stats LIE about Booker. He's a pure match up player. Defensively he gives up a ton against bad match ups and around the league there's a lot of bad match ups for him. Now against the Josh McRoberts & Ersan Ilyasova's of the world, Booker can hold his own and look good doing it (2 of his best games this season have been against McRoberts)... but those match ups tend to be few and far between.

[Hidden Eye]

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=pr3goq9

Booker v. Young v. Ilyasova -- Career
Booker v. Young V. Ilyasova -- This year

Booker is a free agent. Ilyasova is signed for 2 more years at $7.9M/yr. Young is signed for two more years at $9.4M and $10M. His final season is a player option.

Young is coming off a horrible season. He's very similar to Booker stylistically and in terms of overall production. He costs millions more than Book would. Ilyasova at least brings something different. If we're going to spend more on a 4, it should be on someone like Ersan or Anderson, not Young IMO.

Young is better than Ersan he's faster, physically stronger can DEFEND and get to the rim with his quickness and...postup. Oh did I mention he has ball handling? He has the complete package.He has pf body with long range 3 and can run like a SF.. there isn't a lot of players who can do that. There isn't a PF who has the tools like him. Most of them can only have one trick/attribute. He has all three. Comparing Young to Booker is laughable clearly you don't watch philly ball . Young can shoot the 3 just like Illyasova and he's 25 but thanks for reminding me his NBA career is over .

Ersan is only good at shooting just like Kevin Love that's it nothing else.

17.9ppg 6.0rpg 0.5blk 16.64per T young
11.2ppg 6.2rpg 0.1blk 13.85 per Ersan

Comparing Young to Ersan is no comparison.

[fishercob]

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=pr3goq9

Booker v. Young v. Ilyasova -- Career
Booker v. Young V. Ilyasova -- This year

Booker is a free agent. Ilyasova is signed for 2 more years at $7.9M/yr. Young is signed for two more years at $9.4M and $10M. His final season is a player option.

Young is coming off a horrible season. He's very similar to Booker stylistically and in terms of overall production. He costs millions more than Book would. Ilyasova at least brings something different. If we're going to spend more on a 4, it should be on someone like Ersan or Anderson, not Young IMO.

Young is better than Ersan he's faster, physically stronger can DEFEND and get to the rim with his quickness and...postup. Oh did I mention he has ball handling? He has the complete package.He has pf body with long range 3 and can run like a SF.. there isn't a lot of players who can do that. There isn't a PF who has the tools like him. Most of them can only have one trick/attribute. He has all three. Comparing Young to Booker is laughable clearly you don't watch philly ball . Young can shoot the 3 just like Illyasova and he's 25 but thanks for reminding me his NBA career is over .

Ersan is only good at shooting just like Kevin Love that's it nothing else.

17.9ppg 6.0rpg 0.5blk 16.64per T young
11.2ppg 6.2rpg 0.1blk 13.85 per Ersan

Comparing Young to Ersan is no comparison.

Thanks. Clearly, I stand to learn a lot from reading your posts. Looking forward to it.

[Ruzious]

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=pr3goq9

Booker v. Young v. Ilyasova -- Career
Booker v. Young V. Ilyasova -- This year

Booker is a free agent. Ilyasova is signed for 2 more years at $7.9M/yr. Young is signed for two more years at $9.4M and $10M. His final season is a player option.

Young is coming off a horrible season. He's very similar to Booker stylistically and in terms of overall production. He costs millions more than Book would. Ilyasova at least brings something different. If we're going to spend more on a 4, it should be on someone like Ersan or Anderson, not Young IMO.

Young is better than Ersan he's faster, physically stronger can DEFEND and get to the rim with his quickness and...postup. Oh did I mention he has ball handling? He has the complete package.He has pf body with long range 3 and can run like a SF.. there isn't a lot of players who can do that. There isn't a PF who has the tools like him. Most of them can only have one trick/attribute. He has all three. Comparing Young to Booker is laughable clearly you don't watch philly ball . Young can shoot the 3 just like Illyasova and he's 25 but thanks for reminding me his NBA career is over .

Ersan is only good at shooting just like Kevin Love that's it nothing else.

17.9ppg 6.0rpg 0.5blk 16.64per T young
11.2ppg 6.2rpg 0.1blk 13.85 per Ersan

Comparing Young to Ersan is no comparison.

The bolded parts are silly. Young is a solid player and better than Booker, but he's probably the single smallest PF in the NBA. He doesn't have the bulk and strength to defend big skilled PF's. And he's a terrible rebounder. Teams took advantage of Philly's lack of interior defense, and that's part of his job as a PF. He likely would be a better player if had been used strictly as a SF in the NBA.

[Hidden Eye]

Booker v. Young v. Ilyasova -- Career
Booker v. Young V. Ilyasova -- This year

Booker is a free agent. Ilyasova is signed for 2 more years at $7.9M/yr. Young is signed for two more years at $9.4M and $10M. His final season is a player option.

Young is coming off a horrible season. He's very similar to Booker stylistically and in terms of overall production. He costs millions more than Book would. Ilyasova at least brings something different. If we're going to spend more on a 4, it should be on someone like Ersan or Anderson, not Young IMO.

Young is better than Ersan he's faster, physically stronger can DEFEND and get to the rim with his quickness and...postup. Oh did I mention he has ball handling? He has the complete package.He has pf body with long range 3 and can run like a SF.. there isn't a lot of players who can do that. There isn't a PF who has the tools like him. Most of them can only have one trick/attribute. He has all three. Comparing Young to Booker is laughable clearly you don't watch philly ball . Young can shoot the 3 just like Illyasova and he's 25 but thanks for reminding me his NBA career is over .

Ersan is only good at shooting just like Kevin Love that's it nothing else.

17.9ppg 6.0rpg 0.5blk 16.64per T young
11.2ppg 6.2rpg 0.1blk 13.85 per Ersan

Comparing Young to Ersan is no comparison.

The bolded parts are silly. Young is a solid player and better than Booker, but he's probably the single smallest PF in the NBA. He doesn't have the bulk and strength to defend big skilled PF's. [b]And he's a terrible rebounder. [/b]Teams took advantage of Philly's lack of interior defense, and that's part of his job as a PF. He likely would be a better player if had been used strictly as a SF in the NBA.

Smallest PF? . Which Pfs does he struggle against? I would like to hear that. Yeah I'm sure he's a terrible rebounder . Not really he's a PF and can play C for small ball but the 76ers is 3-4 years too early for that since they are in rebuild mode.

[stevemcqueen1]

Thaddeus Young isn't even 6'8 in shoes and weighs maybe 220. He is one of the smallest PFs in the league. He's a SF/PF tweener face up forward. He's a solid player, but his contract isn't good and he's a liability against big PFs on defense. If the choice is between him and Ersan, I take Ersan. Ersan is cheaper, bigger, a much better rebounder, and his three ball is a legit weapon whereas Young's is not. Young perimeter drives would not be good offense for us. Wall & Beal drive and kicks and pick and fades to Ersan for three would be good offense.