2012 NBA Draft - Part II

[pancakes3]

The thing I like most about Robinson is how hard he works during every game. That guy tried his best to establish deep post position on every single possession. It must suck to have to guard a guy like that. He never gives you a break.

And kept it going all year long without let-up. Compare with MKG for instance who occasionally disappeared from games. Okay maybe Kentucky could better afford an off game from any one player, and this was part of their unselfish supastar season, that he'd take a backseat and defer to teammates in games when his talent wasn't as critical. But that goes both ways, it's not like anyone was tripleteaming MKG all year.

Let me correct myself though, this doesn't have to be about MKG vs TRob for the number two spot.

I just appreciate the effort put in by our hometown boy, and it seems to me it bodes well for his ability to continue to improve at the next level. In the NBA he'll face bigger opposition, true, up to now what he's done has been enough to be effective in the low post. Given his attitude and energy level I like his chances to make adjustments. And the flashes of a face-up game, his speed, his solid and crisp pick and roll attack, and his low-post frenzy in rebounding, these all look like they'll translate. Whatever the ping pong balls determine, I'd be proud as all get out to cheer for a player who gives us that kind of energy night in, night out, year after year. I suspect he'll work hard in the offseason to continue to add to his game. He destroyed the LeBron camp. Wait 'til he has a pro contract and access to the IMG academy/Attack Athletics, Idan Ravin, etc. I'd bet you'll see him add a few wrinkles.

Is he the final piece in a championship? Clearly no. But every championship squad requires reliable rebounding, and the energy/attitude to keep focused during a long regular season. I'm proud of his effort this game, he managed to outboard and outshoot the number one overall pick, and but for a few moments of brainlock by teammates nearly managed to carry his squad to the national title with only one other next-level teammate. Imagine if Kentucky had him instead of Terror Jones out there. Kansas ain't coming back from 21 down then...

thought this bears repeating on the draft board.

I'm also surprised that CCJ of all people knocks Robinson for his age - the same CCJ who's pulling the "done told you so" on the equally elderly Faried (Faried's 4 months older).

[Nivek]

Mentioned this before, but shot creation is HUGELY overrated. What's valuable are guys who can create MADE shots. A lot of guys get the "creates his own shot" brand without much consideration of whether the ball actually goes through the hoop or not. I'd rather have a guy with good shot selection than a guy who takes difficult shots under the banner of "creating shots." When Crowder shoots, the ball goes in an awful lot.

Just to circle back on this point for a sec -- consider Tony Wroten. DX has him ranked 23rd. NBAdraft.net has him 26th. Chad Ford has him 19th. Why? Big for his position, athletic, considered to be a shot creator.

He used more possessions per minute than anyone considered to be a draft prospect -- more than Cousins, Durant, and Carmelo. Average efficiency for the 180 players in my spreadsheet: 114 points produced per 100 possessions. Wroten: 96. This season, he shot .492 from 2pt range; .164 from 3pt range and .584 from the free throw line. He averaged 5 assists per 40 minutes, and 5.1 turnovers. Maybe Washington could have done with less shot "creation" and more shot making.

I don't understand how this guy could be considered a first round pick. I have him with a late 2nd round grade based primarily on his physical attributes. If he could be reined in by a good coach, he might make a good PG for someone.

Then compare with Marcus Denmon, who is considered to be a late 2nd round pick by DX and isn't in the NBAdraft.net mock. DX's narrative says he's a limited shot creator and he might be too small to defend NBA SGs. Yet despite these shortcomings, he has an ortg of 129 and he shot .526 from 2pt range, .407 from three, and .896 from the line. And he didn't turn the ball over. Gimme Denmon and his limitations over Wroten and his "shot creation" any day of the week.

[Dark Faze]

I'm a bit concerned about T-Robs inability to beat out the Morris twins for a starting position--two guys which are going to be 4th or 5th options at best on a team. I know I know, paying your dues, pecking order, etc, but I'm not sure that rebounding is a primary concern for this team right now. I see a lot of Josh Smith in T-Rob, which I'd rather have than the Gerald Wallace'esque MKG.

Probably would go with T-Rob if we don't get Davis.

[nate33]

Robinson remains at #2 on my board. I wouldn't be heartbroken if we grabbed MKG or Beal instead, but I'm happy enough with Robinson that I wouldn't be looking to trade down into the 7-10 range.

I think Dat2U's comparison of Kenyon Martin is right on the money. He's KMart, but not a headcase and hopefully without the injury problems. And he might become a better shooter. KMart in his prime was probably the 4th to 7th best PF in the game.

I'd draft Robinson then explore trade options where we trade one of Booker or Vesely for a good wing (or for a draft pick high enough to draft a good wing). Booker is probably the guy with the highest trade value so it would probably be him that goes. I wouldn't overreach on a trade though. It's possible that there might be good wing players in the 2nd round.

[Ruzious]

Mentioned this before, but shot creation is HUGELY overrated. What's valuable are guys who can create MADE shots. A lot of guys get the "creates his own shot" brand without much consideration of whether the ball actually goes through the hoop or not. I'd rather have a guy with good shot selection than a guy who takes difficult shots under the banner of "creating shots." When Crowder shoots, the ball goes in an awful lot.

Just to circle back on this point for a sec -- consider Tony Wroten. DX has him ranked 23rd. NBAdraft.net has him 26th. Chad Ford has him 19th. Why? Big for his position, athletic, considered to be a shot creator.

He used more possessions per minute than anyone considered to be a draft prospect -- more than Cousins, Durant, and Carmelo. Average efficiency for the 180 players in my spreadsheet: 114 points produced per 100 possessions. Wroten: 96. This season, he shot .492 from 2pt range; .164 from 3pt range and .584 from the free throw line. He averaged 5 assists per 40 minutes, and 5.1 turnovers. Maybe Washington could have done with less shot "creation" and more shot making.

I don't understand how this guy could be considered a first round pick. I have him with a late 2nd round grade based primarily on his physical attributes. If he could be reined in by a good coach, he might make a good PG for someone.

It's because he's a freshman who was very highly touted coming out of high school. For those players, they have to really show they're not that good - rather than prove they are that good. Sometimes it takes 2 years to prove suckitude. It would only take me a couple of plays to prove I stink.

[Nivek]

I understand what you're saying, Ruz. I think that's a very kind way of saying the evaluation process sucks. Assuming, of course, that these draft sites actually reflect the thinking of NBA GMs.

Wroten looks like a baller. He's big, he's athletic, he's a good looking guy. But he can't shoot and he's an turnover machine. Gotta get him on my team.

[pcbothwel]

Anyone who watches last night will hopefully see shat I saw in Robinson:

Size: I was very interested in comparing him next to Jones and he looks just as tall and about 5-10 lbs bigger(and broader shoulders). Looks like a legit 6'9, 250lbs.

Athleticism: While he is not as vertically explosive as Griffen/Lebron(who is?)..he seems to have the Amare level athleticsm with an amazing first step and agility for a PF.

Skill set: While he needs to refine his jump shot his form looks very nice(and his FT shooting form looks great too). he also needs to develop some counter moves/footwork refinement. But if if any of you know the college game and the Kansas roster know hes in a situation with no room to operate in the paint. And whil Whithey is a nice shot blocker, his offensice game is severly lacking and puts all the pressure on T-Rob to make a move.
Put him next to Nene/Seraphin (bigs who can step out and shoot a 15ft jumper) in the more open NBA game and watch his offense kick up a notch.

i then look to move Booker and 2nd from Mavs to get back into the 1st round for Doron Lamb. Then use our high 2nd to take Crowder/Barton/Jeff Taylor/Harkless and you have yourself a bunch of hardworking gys with varying skill-sets all brought together by our playmaker/shot creater (for others)...Wall

Wall/Crawford/(Mack or vet pg)
Lamb/Crawford
Singleton/(Crowder/Barton/Taylor)
Robinson/Seraphin/Vesely
NeNe/Seraphin/Vesely

[Severn Hoos]

Wroten looks like a baller. He's big, he's athletic, he's a good looking guy. But he can't shoot and he's an turnover machine. Gotta get him on my team.

Hey mods, please PM Nivek - I think EG has hacked his account.

[FAH1223]

Anyone who watches last night will hopefully see shat I saw in Robinson:

Size: I was very interested in comparing him next to Jones and he looks just as tall and about 5-10 lbs bigger(and broader shoulders). Looks like a legit 6'9, 250lbs.

Athleticism: While he is not as vertically explosive as Griffen/Lebron(who is?)..he seems to have the Amare level athleticsm with an amazing first step and agility for a PF.

Skill set: While he needs to refine his jump shot his form looks very nice(and his FT shooting form looks great too). he also needs to develop some counter moves/footwork refinement. But if if any of you know the college game and the Kansas roster know hes in a situation with no room to operate in the paint. And whil Whithey is a nice shot blocker, his offensice game is severly lacking and puts all the pressure on T-Rob to make a move.
Put him next to Nene/Seraphin (bigs who can step out and shoot a 15ft jumper) in the more open NBA game and watch his offense kick up a notch.

i then look to move Booker and 2nd from Mavs to get back into the 1st round for Doron Lamb. Then use our high 2nd to take Crowder/Barton/Jeff Taylor/Harkless and you have yourself a bunch of hardworking gys with varying skill-sets all brought together by our playmaker/shot creater (for others)...Wall

Wall/Crawford/(Mack or vet pg)
Lamb/Crawford
Singleton/(Crowder/Barton/Taylor)
Robinson/Seraphin/Vesely
NeNe/Seraphin/Vesely

Saw the same thing. I would hope we get a cheap SG/SF guy like Danny Green or someone in FA and I think we can compete once we gel.

[Dark Faze]

I like Darius Miller more than Lamb. Ice water in his veins, solid defender, good size. I'd love to start him over Jordan Crawford who is a huge cancer to Walls development.

[MikeTheKid]

I gotta say Terrence Jones impressed the hell out of me even more. I believe his stock is rising under the radar alot right now. For his size hes very athletic and in the 1st half he locked down Thomas Robinson. I wouldn't be surprised if hes Top 7 if he goes to the Draft. I do hope the Wiz take MKG, Lamb or Beal if we don't have #1 overall.

[pcbothwel]

Faze,

I like what Miller brings, but he is a SF through and through. And while Miller has shown he can make the spot up 3, Lamb is on another level. Im talking 40%+...JJ Redick, Stephen Curry, Ben Gordon type of shooter. Not to mention, he has a smooth athletic game that allows him to be a scorer inside and out..not just a shooter.

As to Crawford. I cant stand him, but I believe he becomes an asset as the 6th man, instead of an out-of-sync chucker at the starting SG spot.

[nate33]

I gotta say Terrence Jones impressed the hell out of me even more. I believe his stock is rising under the radar alot right now. For his size hes very athletic and in the 1st half he locked down Thomas Robinson. I wouldn't be surprised if hes Top 7 if he goes to the Draft. I do hope the Wiz take MKG, Lamb or Beal if we don't have #1 overall.

Meh. Robinson was still getting deep position on him. If it wasn't for the incredible weak side shot blocking of Davis, Robinson would have had 25 and 18.

[Nivek]

I agree nate. Jones is still an intriguing prospect, and he'd be a good value in the late lottery. But Robinson dominated him physically. Davis is the shiznitz.

[Severn Hoos]

I just appreciate the effort put in by our hometown boy, and it seems to me it bodes well for his ability to continue to improve at the next level. In the NBA he'll face bigger opposition, true, up to now what he's done has been enough to be effective in the low post. Given his attitude and energy level I like his chances to make adjustments. And the flashes of a face-up game, his speed, his solid and crisp pick and roll attack, and his low-post frenzy in rebounding, these all look like they'll translate. Whatever the ping pong balls determine, I'd be proud as all get out to cheer for a player who gives us that kind of energy night in, night out, year after year. I suspect he'll work hard in the offseason to continue to add to his game. He destroyed the LeBron camp. Wait 'til he has a pro contract and access to the IMG academy/Attack Athletics, Idan Ravin, etc. I'd bet you'll see him add a few wrinkles.

Is he the final piece in a championship? Clearly no. But every championship squad requires reliable rebounding, and the energy/attitude to keep focused during a long regular season. I'm proud of his effort this game, he managed to outboard and outshoot the number one overall pick, and but for a few moments of brainlock by teammates nearly managed to carry his squad to the national title with only one other next-level teammate. Imagine if Kentucky had him instead of Terror Jones out there. Kansas ain't coming back from 21 down then...

I know I come off as a "hater" when it comes to TRob. I certainly have my doubts, and think he'll struggle with the length of NBA PFs. He'll be a great rebounder, but he'll really need to improve the efficiency of his scoring or else he'll risk being a one-dimensional type of player.

And the Kenyon Martin comparison - even if I thought he was really as good as KMart - is not really that comforting. For a #1 pick (even in an awful draft), Martin was, frankly, a bit of a disappointment. His career high in PER was 18.7, in his only All-Star year, his last in NJ before engineering his trade to Denver. All told, if you take the "best case scenarios", I'd rather have Ginobili/Harden (Beal) or Pippen/Artest (MKG) over KMart, especially on the team as currently constructed.

That said, he does work his tail off, and will be exactly the type of player that other guys hate matching up against. He seems like a great kid who has endured a lot of adversity and overcome it all, and I too would be proud to root for him on my team.

[tontoz]

Faze,

I like what Miller brings, but he is a SF through and through. And while Miller has shown he can make the spot up 3, Lamb is on another level. Im talking 40%+...JJ Redick, Stephen Curry, Ben Gordon type of shooter. Not to mention, he has a smooth athletic game that allows him to be a scorer inside and out..not just a shooter.

As to Crawford. I cant stand him, but I believe he becomes an asset as the 6th man, instead of an out-of-sync chucker at the starting SG spot.

I wonder if Crawford's ball dominance is part of Wall's problem right now.

If we trade down i would definitely consider Jeremy Lamb. He has shot well from the field 2 years in a row and is comfortable playing off the ball.

[Nivek]

I agree with Sev on a couple counts re: the Robinson, Kenyon Martin comparison. First, Martin was the better prospect -- much more efficient, much better 2pt%. Robinson is better on the boards than Martin was, but Martin was a dominating defender (6.6 steals + blocks per 40 vs. 2.6 for Robinson). Based on his performance in college, I'd agree that Martin's NBA career was ultimately a bit disappointing.

[Ruzious]

Martin was a GREAT player at Cincy, but I think he lost a bit of his athleticism from breaking his leg towards the end of his senior season. At least he seemed much more athletic at Cincy than he did for the Nets.

[gesa2]

Didn't Kenyon Martin have a significant knee injury at the end of his senior year?

[DallasShalDune]

Davis is the shiznitz.

This is the sort of statistical, scientific evidence I've been waiting for Kev to unload on us.