Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2)

[dckingsfan]

Fox News?

[dckingsfan]

1) Predict the moon - e.g. Vesely will be heart and soul of the team
2) When posters call you on this - say they are spinning the discussion
3) Rinse Repeat

Eventually 1) comes true and you can celebrate.

[dckingsfan]

Question was posted:

Would your opinion of the team and vocal displeasure of management change if some the negative posters were aware that Ted Leonsis browsed this message board? Would some of you post differently? Not saying he does, but by small chance what if. How would you react?

Thank You for any replies

Figured I would put this in the right thread

[nate33]

Question was posted:

Would your opinion of the team and vocal displeasure of management change if some the negative posters were aware that Ted Leonsis browsed this message board? Would some of you post differently? Not saying he does, but by small chance what if. How would you react?

Thank You for any replies

Figured I would put this in the right thread

I always post as if things are being read by players and management. I try and keep my criticisms fair and I don't make personal attacks.

The only players I recall having true scorn for are Vesely and Maynor. Man, did they suck.

[hands11]

Seasons: 15
Playoffs: 7
Division Titles: 1
Conference Titles: 0
NBA Titles: 0

Number of seasons with more than 45 wins: 0

Dagger

You project for this year is what ?

Wins ?
Playoff Projections ?

For the record, in the 4th year of the rebuild under their new owner Ted, they were 44 wins and made it to the 2nd round of the playoffs where they won 2 games. Paul Pierce thinks they could have gone farther so he joined them to help them do it.

Ted/EG is your front office. Judge that. What have you done for me lately.

Double Dagger

[hands11]

Like that you and Millie are posting in the correct thread

I post in both.

I post in the other and several others to celebrate the team assent which I have been doing for 4 year while they have been doing it.

I post in this one to rub your nose in it which I have been doing for just as long.

[hands11]

Was this supposed to be in the green font?

Ernie passed on LeBron, Durant, Anthony Davis, Rose, Wade, CP3, Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, Duncan, ...the list of franchise players Ernie passed over gets longer each draft. Russel, Bird, Magic, Wilt....damn you Ernie

Well, Brenice, inasmuch as you brought the subject up -- how many of Ernie's drafts have been successful?

Lets see.. in the last 6 drafts, with a #5 pick, a #1 pick, a #17 pick, a #23 pick, a #6 pick, a #18 pick, a #34 pick, a # 3 pick, a #31 pick, a #46 pick, another #3 pick, a #38 pick and a #46 pick -- how many good players did Ernie acquire?

Three: John Wall (w/ a #1 pick -- the hardest pick in the draft to screw up, and which he got by ping pong ball luck), Bradley Beal (good pick -- excellent work Ernie!) and Otto Porter (again a gift of ping pong ball luck -- but we hope he'll be good).

Quite a haul, huh? And as you point out, we didn't really pass on any good players: just Stephen Curry, Kawhi Leonard, Kenneth Faried, Chandler Parsons, Jae Crowder, Kyle O'Quinn, etc. etc. etc.

Dont get stuck in the weed.

What did the team look like pre Ted ?

What does it look like now ?

Results matter more then efficiency. As PIFF has told us, its all about the results. And when they come, its like magic. They just show up out of no where. Last year they sucked. Then they didn't. Now they are extremely promising. Its like babies coming from the Stork. They just show up.

The efficiency argument is all the haters have left and its speculation and like slicing a crumb. You do it, you get to crumbs. We will never know the details of planned tanks but we can read the tea left. Designing a team without a center. Designing a team that needed scoring but not drafting any. Selling off your vets. Thats how teams tank. If you don't know that, you don't know basketball operations. Add to that plugging holes, setting up trades, player development moves. Its impossible to figure out what they were really thinking move by move. You might get close but never provable regarding what was short term filler to make the next move.

What we do know is where they were and where they are. That we can see. Debating efficiency is a strawman.

I would rather get there inefficiently then not get there at all. Or.. efficiently make a team that isn't as good. That's also an option. You get to good to fast or lock in to many long contracts or add players that get in the way of other players developing. You can make all the next efficient moves and it still adds up to less then the sum of the parts.

4 years ago this franchise sucked. The salaries sucked. The vision sucked. The owner sucked. The front office structure sucked. The vision sucked. The structure of the team and its focus was backward. Offense not defense. Score first PG with no defense vs pass first PG that should be first team defensive player. PF that couldn't defend vs Hump a two way player and Nene off the freakin bench who is an excellent defender. The team has power, speed, shooting, vets, leads the league in assists. Top 5 defense. Middle of the pack offense. They are united. The locker room is great. The have great leaders. And they still don't even have Web back yet.

Those that missed this rebuild didn't just miss by a little. They couldn't have been more wrong if they tried.

As for posters like TWG, my God. Dude still has a EG failed icon. That tells you there is not room to back down and admit 4 years of being wrong. Don't expect it. There is no where to go but quadruple down on being wrong, try to spin out of it or leave the board.

I expect more of the first two.

[TGW]

Question was posted:

Would your opinion of the team and vocal displeasure of management change if some the negative posters were aware that Ted Leonsis browsed this message board? Would some of you post differently? Not saying he does, but by small chance what if. How would you react?

Thank You for any replies

Figured I would put this in the right thread

I honestly could care less what Mr. "New Big Three" thinks about what I post.

Maybe when his teams start showing a track record of winning something, then I'll change my tone. Right now, Ted is just a rich loser from my perspective. He's not as bad as Snyder, but he ain't much better.

[hands11]

I don't post much but read a lot. A few Wiz buddies of mine browse these threads frequently and we were all discussing how a lot of facts here presented make GM Ernie look better at his job than most give him credit for. Just look at the team now and all the buzz. The GM bought these players here and turned this franchise around. Only someone who doesn't know too much about the game of basketball would want him gone. 99 percent of Wiz fans I come across are satisfied with the team going into the future. Seems like just a few stragglers here are stuck in the Stone Age and don't want to catch up with time. Oh well.

Thanks for posting ZDC.

Hope you stick around.

But one small comment. Its not EG. It never was. Its the front office. Its Ted and EG. And Randy actually. But it starts with Ted.

GMs can only do so much. It all starts at the top. That is true of any organization.

Ted deserves a lot of credit. Then you credit Ted/EG or EG. Then Ted/EG/Randy or Randy.

Its a front office. Vision. Money. Timing. Deligation. Defined authority. It all starts at the top. Ted.

[hands11]

I have a lot of complaints about Ernie. Over the years, I think he has been, on balance, a bad GM. I still think the Miller/Foye trade and the Vesely pick were unforgivable disasters that cost this team a lot of years in rebuilding.

That said, it's nearly impossible not to be impressed with EG's performance this offseason. He absolutely hit it out of the park. He improved the on-the-court talent base of the team while keeping enough long term flexibility to keep the Durant dream alive. Pierce, Butler and Humphries have been great (and cheap). Keeping Miller looks like the right move. And I'm seeing enough promise in Porter that I think he'll eventually take on the Ariza role.

Even if the Durant dream doesn't come to pass, all we'll need is a quality stretch-four free agent signing and we should still have a reliable playoff team for years to come with Wall, Beal, Porter, Stretch Four, Humphries and Gortat.

Exactly.

They can go KD or they can go in a GSW direction. Right now, I think they look more like a baby GSW team.

[hands11]

This driver got us to our destination (competitive basketball), but the road he took us on to get here was unnecessarily long and tortuous. I thank him for getting us here in one piece, but I'd never hire him to drive us again.

http://www.rantsports.com/nba/2014/08/1 ... 95#slide_9

That you got right.

He was the driver.

What he had were bad directions.

Ted took over. New directions. Just maybe it was the driver.

[colts18]

During the Ernie era, here is where the Wizards rank:

W-L: 375-535 (.412), 28th place
SRS: -2.81, 29th place
Playoff W-L: 14-23 (.378), 24th place

Awesome resume!

[leswizards]

Exactly why you are on so many people's ignore list.

[Nivek]

From what I'm picking up from people quoting folks on my ignore list, we seem to have a resurgence of the "The real problem was Abe Pollin" trope. Which is still bull.

For example, Abe told Grunfeld he wanted to win. Grunfeld went out traded the 5th pick for Randy Foye and Mike Miller. Grunfeld thought that was a winning strategy. It was, of course, a spectacular failure.

And, while Grunfeld had a good offseason with Leonsis in 2014, he had a terrible one with Leonsis the previous summer.

Grunfeld had good offseasons while working for Abe, and terrible ones. He's done the same with Leonsis.

[Kanyewest]

From what I'm picking up from people quoting folks on my ignore list, we seem to have a resurgence of the "The real problem was Abe Pollin" trope. Which is still bull.

For example, Abe told Grunfeld he wanted to win. Grunfeld went out traded the 5th pick for Randy Foye and Mike Miller. Grunfeld thought that was a winning strategy. It was, of course, a spectacular failure.

And, while Grunfeld had a good offseason with Leonsis in 2014, he had a terrible one with Leonsis the previous summer.

Grunfeld had good offseasons while working for Abe, and terrible ones. He's done the same with Leonsis.

I'm not sure how trading a mid first rounder for Gortat qualifies as a terrible offseason. Now trading first rounders for Bargnani- that would be terrible.

[TGW]

Here are Grunfeld's moves last summer. The ones underlined are poor moves IMO.

October 31 2013
Exercised the contract option on guard Bradley Beal through 2014-15.
October 28 2013
Waived guards Shannon Brown, Malcolm Lee and Kendall Marshall.
October 25 2013
Traded center Emeka Okafor and a 2014 protected first round draft pick to the Phoenix Suns for guards Shannon Brown, Malcolm Lee and Kendall Marshall and center Marcin Gortat.
October 24 2013
Waived guard Xavier Silas, forwards Josh Childress and Pops Mensah-Bonsu and center D'Or Fischer.
September 27 2013
Signed guard Xavier Silas, forwards Josh Childress and Pops Mensah-Bonsu and center D'Or Fischer.
September 16 2013
Named Tommy Sheppard senior vice president of basketball operations, Ed Tapscott vice president of player programs, Pat Sullivan assistant coach, Brett Greenberg director of basketball analytics/salary cap management, Bryan Oringher video coordinator, Ryan Richman assistant video coordinator, Marc Eversley vice president of scouting, Frank Ross director of player personnel, Greg Ballard advance pro scout and Thomas Knox director of player performance and rehabilitation.
July 31 2013
Signed guard John Wall to a contract extension.
July 10 2013
Re-signed guards Garrett Temple and Martell Webster and signed guards Eric Maynor and Glen Rice Jr and forward Otto Porter.
Draft 2013
Selected forwards Otto Porter (3rd overall pick) and Arsalan Kazemi (54th overall pick) and guard Nate Wolters (38th overall pick). Traded the draft rights to guard Nate Wolters and forward Arsalan Kazemi to the Philadelphia 76ers for the draft rights to forward Glen Rice Jr.

These are arguable, but admittedly not terrible. The Gortat and Webster deals are debateable, however I think we overpaid for both players. Webster's contract is poor, and giving up a pick in the Gortat deal was stupid. I absolutely HATE the fact that now Grunfeld is devaluing picks. They keep saying that they don't want anymore young players, but the problem isn't that the players are young--the problem is that the guy in charge of picking the players absolutely stinks at it.

[Nivek]

From what I'm picking up from people quoting folks on my ignore list, we seem to have a resurgence of the "The real problem was Abe Pollin" trope. Which is still bull.

For example, Abe told Grunfeld he wanted to win. Grunfeld went out traded the 5th pick for Randy Foye and Mike Miller. Grunfeld thought that was a winning strategy. It was, of course, a spectacular failure.

And, while Grunfeld had a good offseason with Leonsis in 2014, he had a terrible one with Leonsis the previous summer.

Grunfeld had good offseasons while working for Abe, and terrible ones. He's done the same with Leonsis.

I'm not sure how trading a mid first rounder for Gortat qualifies as a terrible offseason. Now trading first rounders for Bargnani- that would be terrible.

Maynor.

I could stop there, but...

Quick summary: their offseason needs were backup PG and frontcourt depth.

They had Ariza under contract, the third pick in the draft, and Webster as a free agent.

They used the third pick on Porter (who's a SF), traded two picks (one of which became PG Nate Wolters) to select Rice (SG/SF), used the full MLE to re-sign Webster (SG/SF), and then didn't trade Ariza. Not trading Ariza worked out. Ariza had the best season of his career, but ultimately departed for zero compensation. Virtually any combination of these moves would have been fine. All of them together -- considering the team's other needs -- was a misuse of resources.

Having used the draft to add players at a position of strength, Grunfeld signed Maynor to a two-year BAE contract on the first day of free agency. As training camp began, Grunfeld congratulated himself to Michael Lee saying (among other things) the team had upgraded the PG position and that Maynor "knows how to play." Yet, Maynor had already played 4 seasons in the NBA, and had been terrible. He's getting paid this season to not play in the NBA.

Having used the BAE and the MLE, Grunfeld had nothing but minimum salary contracts to attract frontcourt depth. He struck out with DeJuan Blair, who accepted an identical minimum salary offer from Dallas.

He managed to get Al Harrington, who was terrible last season.

The Gortat trade was a desperation move borne from Grunfeld's colossal misjudgment of Maynor's ability to play, and his misuse of player acquisition resources during the offseason. Had he used some of those resources to add depth behind his two 30+ year old big men, he may not have needed to trade for Gortat at all.

Now, it's worked out because Gortat's a good player. I'm happy to have him, and hope he'll be productive throughout his contract. But that trade isn't an example of good GM work. It's an example of getting a good result from a desperation move.

Nope -- 2013 was a TERRIBLE offseason by Grunfeld. He was able to salvage it later with a desperation trade for Gortat, by plucking Gooden off the garbage heap, and because Brian Shaw and Andre Miller couldn't stand each other.

2014 was good -- Pierce and Humprhies. Not sure why Blair gets no time at all, but he's a solid player to have in a "break glass in case of emergency" role. Only bad move really was bringing back Seraphin, and that hasn't hurt them much. Yet.

[milellie111]

Exactly why you are on so many people's ignore list.

Don't know who placed me on their ignore list and I don't care It actually speaks volumes to that individuals maturity!

I think it's kind of feminine to place someone on an ignore list just because you don't agree with their arguments. I can understand if the person was personally attacking/threatening you.

If someone ignores me, it's most likely because they are mad I have not joined in bashing management. I, like a few others are not a part of a sheep following cult who blindly follow a dominant voice on a message board. I have analyzed impartially all factors and base my conclusions on current results. Perhaps those who are closed minded and not open to change and progression should keep me on ignore and place a few new members on the list who are bringing positivity and the truth to this board.

The pretty soon, the handful of Ernie bashers will fade like dust as the team keeps winning because he isn't going anywhere and has earned his spot these past 2 offseasons.

[Zonkerbl]

Anyway you can't blame EG for playing Seraphin over Blair. That's Wittman's fault.

EG is solidly mediocre. He wins as many as he loses. His draft decisions are reasonably solid, except for the Vesely fiasco. He managed to turn his draft picks, Young and McGee, into decent assets. His trades are ok and his free agent signings are ok.

I think it's accurate to say that the overall structure of the NBA, which is designed to allow the crappy teams to get the best players and eventually get better, is playing out like it should, and EG hasn't significantly detracted from that (mainly by doing an admirable job cleaning up his mistakes).

If his strategy to make a bid for a big free agent in 2016 works out, he's a genius and we're all idiots.

[leswizards]

If someone ignores me, it's most likely because they are mad I have not joined in bashing management.

That is a lie. You have joined in bashing management.