WallToWall wrote:As a 6'-9" center, do you think Okongwu is undersized for the position?
In the same way that Ben Wallace was and Bam Adebayo is. Okongwu isn't quite as explosive as either of them, but he has somewhat similar attributes.
Moderators: LyricalRico, nate33, montestewart

WallToWall wrote:As a 6'-9" center, do you think Okongwu is undersized for the position?
TGW wrote:FAH1223 wrote:Spurs like Saddiq Bey... watch them take him and turn him into something more than what he's projected to be.
He's 6'8 with a handle, jumpshot, a positive ast/to ratio, and he's a solid defender. He's definitely a great piece of clay for someone like Pop.

pcbothwel wrote:TGW wrote:FAH1223 wrote:Spurs like Saddiq Bey... watch them take him and turn him into something more than what he's projected to be.
He's 6'8 with a handle, jumpshot, a positive ast/to ratio, and he's a solid defender. He's definitely a great piece of clay for someone like Pop.
Sorry, but Bey is very mediocre. While a very good shooter from 3 with a high IQ for spacing and team defense, he cannot create for himself or others, he lacks burst and doesnt offset that with high level coordination. He is old for his class, doesnt draw fouls, rebound, or show high level defense.
I get it... he has a high floor as a plug and play 3 & D wing (though the "D" portion is average), but you CANNOT take him over Nesmith, Tyler Bey, Vassell, Poku, or Okoro.
Vassell, to me, distinguishes himself as the best perimeter defender in the draft (Yes, he is a better defender than Okoro... anyone that states otherwise is simply looking at there tools and projecting into the future). He has a lot of Otto / Mikal Bridges to his game and seems like one of the few player with a high floor along with some growth potential.
Poku is the wild card. His age and IQ is simply off the charts and he has some statistical markers that are VERY reliable in projecting players:
STOCKS (Steals + Blocks): His ability to gather blocks and steals while keeping his fouls low is incredibly impressive.
AST:TOV: 2.5:1 Ratio also shows a player that sees the floor while not taking unnecessary risk.
FT%: 78% FT shooter for a 7'1 18 y/o shows a ton of projection as a shooter.
Reb: 12.2 Rbd/36 shows that he doesn't just float around on the perimeter and he has a high IQ. I.E. He reads the ball well
Looking at the tape will only double down on what the stats show. His hips/feet as quick on both sides of the court. Offensively, he moves very well and gets his feet set very quickly when in C&S situations.
Basically, he is Bonga, but with more offensive upside... And if you've been watching Bonga this last year, you know how players like that directly lead to winning.
pcbothwel wrote:He should go in the 8-12 range, but I think he drops to the late teens due to a few win now teams (Celtics, TWolves, PDX, Mavs, Nets, Heat)....
pcbothwel wrote:...he is a fascinating prospect in that he seems like a Zion, Odom, Ben Simmons, Ball, Kyle Anderson, Draymond, Marcus Smart, etc. type prospect that will fill up the stat sheet on both ends of the court.
I think his floor is a Bonga/Nerlens Noel type hybrid player... but his ceiling is very high and very real.
payitforward wrote:My interest in this is b/c I'm trying to figure out whether we can trade down & still get him, while also coming away with another guy who is less "developmental." Hence some questions...pcbothwel wrote:He should go in the 8-12 range, but I think he drops to the late teens due to a few win now teams (Celtics, TWolves, PDX, Mavs, Nets, Heat)....
Of those teams, only the Suns are in that 8-12 range. I wonder whether the Knicks' brand new FO team would have the balls to take a guy like Poku. The Kings also have a new FO, & ours is pretty new as well. I don't think Tommy will want to come away with a guy that probably isn't ready for heavy NBA minutes a few months from now; not sure he's secure enough in his job as it were. Plus, the focus seems to be -- inevitably/tunnel vision -- to supplement Wall/Beal. That said, I wonder whether he'll get past the Spurs.
The "late teens" is where he's mocked by guys who are high on him. To Portland at 16, even to Philly @#21. If he was there at Philly's pick, would you trade our #9 (we'd have picked, so let's assume they'd like the pick we'd made -- Devin Vassell, say...) for their #21 (i.e. Poku), their #34, & their R1 pick next year? That's a pretty fair trade in theory (i.e. just considering the pick positions).
I think there some very very high-probability successes will be on the board in the high '30s, which would somewhat mitigate the risk Poku may be said to bring with him. Even though...pcbothwel wrote:...he is a fascinating prospect in that he seems like a Zion, Odom, Ben Simmons, Ball, Kyle Anderson, Draymond, Marcus Smart, etc. type prospect that will fill up the stat sheet on both ends of the court.
I think his floor is a Bonga/Nerlens Noel type hybrid player... but his ceiling is very high and very real.
Or, how might you go about securing him & at least one extra prospect who looks like a very high-probability bet to succeed.
Or... would you just take him at #9?

pcbothwel wrote:
Vassell, to me, distinguishes himself as the best perimeter defender in the draft (Yes, he is a better defender than Okoro... anyone that states otherwise is simply looking at there tools and projecting into the future). He has a lot of Otto / Mikal Bridges to his game and seems like one of the few player with a high floor along with some growth potential.
Poku is the wild card. His age and IQ is simply off the charts and he has some statistical markers that are VERY reliable in projecting players:

doclinkin wrote:pcbothwel wrote:
Vassell, to me, distinguishes himself as the best perimeter defender in the draft (Yes, he is a better defender than Okoro... anyone that states otherwise is simply looking at there tools and projecting into the future). He has a lot of Otto / Mikal Bridges to his game and seems like one of the few player with a high floor along with some growth potential.
Poku is the wild card. His age and IQ is simply off the charts and he has some statistical markers that are VERY reliable in projecting players:
With the Euro caveat. Euroleague players tend to suffer with fouls early in translating to the NBA. Still, I'm impressed with his smarts and evident situational awareness, suggesting he will make the adjustment. Plus he moves his feet well, he actually has a solid lower frame which will help him stay on his feet even if he never really adds much strength up to.
In the NBA his combination of height, scrawniness, and habit of defending while under the bucket instead of a step or two outside the cylinder will make him look like a perfect landing strip for dunk happy athletes. He can have all the verticality he wants, they're going straight through those upraised arms. And in the NBA much of how he currently defends will be an AND1 for the opponent.
Still, its his passing and heads up play that catch my attention. That and his surprisingly nimble feet. Decent shot. His handle is fine but in the NBA its less likely that he will be called to use it all that much. I like him on a trade down where we get additional value. I think it is a fair question which of his skills can translate, but smarts suggest he will make adjustments and find ways to contribute to whichever team he lands on. Yeah he will be a stretch-something, whatever position that is, I just have question marks about the ultimate utility of scrawny 'unicorn'-type players in the metagame. Aside from Giannis, who got big, and is a freak athlete, what team is dominating with a skinny face up perimeter giant?
pcbothwel wrote:payitforward wrote:...would you just take him at #9?
...yes, I would take him at 9.
Ruzious wrote:what team is dominating with a skinny face up perimeter giant?
I'll go with Tayshawn Prince as the closest comp that I can think of. Remember him at Kentucky, he was ultrathin back then. Needless to say, he was a key to the Pistons great defense - not just in support of Ben Wallace but in helping players like Rip Hamilton. Alexander AK47 Kirilenko would probably be the next closest I can think of. His best days were complementing the Mailman at Utah. Prince and AK47 were very effective complementary pieces on outstanding teams. Of course, neither was 7'2ish.

doclinkin wrote:Ruzious wrote:what team is dominating with a skinny face up perimeter giant?
I'll go with Tayshawn Prince as the closest comp that I can think of. Remember him at Kentucky, he was ultrathin back then. Needless to say, he was a key to the Pistons great defense - not just in support of Ben Wallace but in helping players like Rip Hamilton. Alexander AK47 Kirilenko would probably be the next closest I can think of. His best days were complementing the Mailman at Utah. Prince and AK47 were very effective complementary pieces on outstanding teams. Of course, neither was 7'2ish.
Nothing like each other. Replay the Pistons Lakers series to see how Prince was guarding Kobe. His stance was so low he was effectively a 5'10" player -- with tape measure arms. The wide stance was hard to get around and his laterality combined with the long arms made him a threat on defense against both the pass and the shot. Poku by contrast, so far, stays upright. He's in the right place at the right time, and he's incredibly tall. That wingspan will measure short for his height, since much of his length is in the legs, and he has narrow shoulders. Devin Vassell is closer to Tayshaun than is Poku.
That said, playing basically as a 7' shooting guard on offense, he is remarkable to watch. Smart, smooth, in control, pretty passes. He drops the ball on a wind up for his jumper, which makes it guardable until he learns to catch and shoot overhead, but he's smart and young. And his feet are surprisingly nimble and active. I would not complain if he lands here. There is something special about his game. Until he gets some bulk he could slot in fine as a SF in the mold of a KD or the like. I'd still want some muscle and intimidating strength in the paint. He'd be fine in spot minutes sliding to defense underneath, rebounding agaisnt shorter mismatches, or coming in for weakside blocks. A good coach will find a role for him.
FWIW, I do think a team in the lotto will snatch him earlier than these late projections.
payitforward wrote:pcbothwel wrote:payitforward wrote:...would you just take him at #9?
...yes, I would take him at 9.
Just to make sure my question was clear & that I understand your response: are you saying that if you were the Wizards GM, then when our turn came to pick at #9, you would take Pokusevski with our pick?
Now, since you rate him "in the top 10," obviously there are at least some guys you'd take instead if they happened to fall to us at #9. So... who would you take above Pokusevski in this draft -- i.e. the guys who, if they are picked from 1-8, you hand in the card with Poku's name on it?
pcbothwel wrote:payitforward wrote:...are you saying that if you were the Wizards GM, then when our turn came to pick at #9, you would take Pokusevski with our pick?...
The only players that would cause me reservation would be Okongwu, Hayes, Wiseman, Haliburton, Toppin, Edwards, Ball and Vassell.... Im low on Ball and think Toppin is a bad fit, but I would at least look at the trade environment for them.
pcbothwel wrote:Dream would be to trade with Boston for 14, 26, and 30.
14: Poku
26: Tyler Bey
30: Tre Jones
37: Tillman
UDFA: Mason Jones
payitforward wrote:As to that trade dream...pcbothwel wrote:Dream would be to trade with Boston for 14, 26, and 30.
14: Poku
26: Tyler Bey
30: Tre Jones
37: Tillman
UDFA: Mason Jones
...sign me up!Five rookies -- a man after my own heart!!!!!
But, I don't think we could even get #14 & #26 for #9!
Now... I do think Boston would give us #14 & #30 for #9. Would you do that? They also have the #47. Maybe we could talk them into throwing it in? Then buy #34 from Elton Brand.
Still some chance we get Bey @#30 (maybe...?). If so, then at #34 take Malachi Flynn? Bolmaro? Maledon? If we missed on Bey, take Paul Reed if he's still there. Then use #47 to take Mason Jones (I wouldn't count on him going undrafted...). Sign Nate Hinton undrafted. Or Sam Merrill.
pcbothwel wrote:... the precedent is the Kings trade a few years ago when they moved back from 10 to get 15 & 20 (They picked up Giles @ 20). To me, that means 9 = 14 + 20-22... but they only have 26, so they make up the value difference with 30.

payitforward wrote:pcbothwel wrote:payitforward wrote:...are you saying that if you were the Wizards GM, then when our turn came to pick at #9, you would take Pokusevski with our pick?...
The only players that would cause me reservation would be Okongwu, Hayes, Wiseman, Haliburton, Toppin, Edwards, Ball and Vassell.... Im low on Ball and think Toppin is a bad fit, but I would at least look at the trade environment for them.
Ok, so, let's assume that Okongwu, Hayes, Wiseman, Toppin, Edwards & Ball are virtually 100% to be gone when our #9 pick comes around, Avdija too. Either Vassell or Haliburton has to be there: you would take either one of them over Pokusevski. If (somehow) Okongwu is still there too, then it's one of those 3 guys not Poku whom you take.
But, if Toppin and/or Ball on the board, you would hope to trade the pick (to a team that wants one of them, obviously) for multiple picks that make you pretty certain you can get Poku a bit lower down (along w/ something else, obviously).
If, somehow, Vassell, Haliburton & Okongwu are all gone, & you can't trade Toppin/Ball (obviously still available if those other guys are gone!) the way you want... then you take Pokusevski @#9.
Perfectly clear, thanks. The most likely guy in that group to be there is Vassell -- at least that's what one would think based on the mock drafts all over the net. In fact, it seems very likely that he'll be there. So, your most likely pick might be Vassell.
In that case, leaving aside unlikely changes in who's picked 1-8, your pick at #9 is Vassell, unless Haliburton is there in which case... do you take him instead? If both are gone, you take Poku.
But, really, Toppin/Ball will be gone, & Vassell will be there -- so... in truth, he's your pick not Pokusevski.
Rinse & repeat for Haliburton. &, I assume, for Okongwu as well.
Poku is your #4 choice given possible happenings. Even though you seem higher on him than anyone else in the draft.