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Official 2023 Wizards OFFSEASON Thread

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Re: Official 2023 Wizards OFFSEASON Thread 

Post#1181 » by Hidden Eye » Tue Jul 18, 2023 3:03 pm

nate33 wrote:
Rafael122 wrote:Hornets won 27 games with Ball only play 36 games, of which they went 13-23 with him. No Bridges too. I fail to see how Washington wins only 24 or 25 games. I'd say 30 is a good bet unless Winger and co decide to tank in January. It honestly wouldn't shock me if they won the same amount of games as last season.

Name 3 teams that are worse than us. Heck, I'm even not sure you can name 1. Even if Portland trades Lillard, are they worse than us?

Scoot > Jones
Simons = Poole
Herro = Kispert
Sharpe = Coulibaly
Thybulle = Deni
Grant > Kuzma
Nurkic = Gafford

There is greater parity now, but I don't think the worst team in the league is going to win 35 games.


Charlotte, Atl, Detroit, Nets, Magic and Raptors.
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Re: Official 2023 Wizards OFFSEASON Thread 

Post#1182 » by payitforward » Tue Jul 18, 2023 3:47 pm

DCZards wrote:
nate33 wrote:Name 3 teams that are worse than us. Heck, I'm even not sure you can name 1. Even if Portland trades Lillard, are they worse than us?

Scoot > Jones
Simons = Poole
Herro = Kispert
Sharpe = Coulibaly
Thybulle = Deni
Grant > Kuzma
Nurkic = Gafford

There is greater parity now, but I don't think the worst team in the league is going to win 35 games.

I see it a little differently...at least this season.

Jones > Scoot (Scoot will struggle some as a rookie)
Poole > Simons (size & championship pedigree matter)
Herro = Kispert
Sharpe > Coulibaly (Sharpe's offense makes the difference...at least this season, but it's close given Bilal's superior D)
Deni > Thybulle (Neither can shoot but Deni is a better rebounder and playmaker)
Grant = Kuzma (I could buy the argument that Grant is better, but not by much.)
Nurkic > Gafford (a slight edge to Nurkic, imo)


This is a funny debate! :) & fun too... weirdly!

I agree w/ Zards that Jones seems pretty likely to be better than rookie Scoot.
I also agree that Poole is better than Simons, yet... he's coming off a really bad year.
But, sure, Sharpe is likely to be better than rookie Bilal.

OTOH, I think Gafford is better than Nurkic.
Yet, it's hard to predict between those two guys, as you don't know how many minutes you'll get from either of them.

Neither Grant nor Kuz is a good player -- though Grant had some good years early in his career. Overall, Grant has been better. But, because I am now predicting a break out year from Kyle Kuzma, a season in which he is actually "good," i.e. above average -- maybe a fair amount above average -- I'm calling it for Portland as the ultimate bottom dweller!

Now... the sooner they trade Dame the more substance to the prediction. If he's on the team & plays, they're better. Duh.
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Re: Official 2023 Wizards OFFSEASON Thread 

Post#1183 » by nate33 » Tue Jul 18, 2023 3:50 pm

Hidden Eye wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Rafael122 wrote:Hornets won 27 games with Ball only play 36 games, of which they went 13-23 with him. No Bridges too. I fail to see how Washington wins only 24 or 25 games. I'd say 30 is a good bet unless Winger and co decide to tank in January. It honestly wouldn't shock me if they won the same amount of games as last season.

Name 3 teams that are worse than us. Heck, I'm even not sure you can name 1. Even if Portland trades Lillard, are they worse than us?

Scoot > Jones
Simons = Poole
Herro = Kispert
Sharpe = Coulibaly
Thybulle = Deni
Grant > Kuzma
Nurkic = Gafford

There is greater parity now, but I don't think the worst team in the league is going to win 35 games.


Charlotte, Atl, Detroit, Nets, Magic and Raptors.

Not sure if serious. You are predicting the Wizards to finish 9th in the East?

All those teams except Detroit are easily better than the Wizards.

The Wizards might be the worst team in the league. They're in the bottom tier group with Detroit, Portland and San Antonio.
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Re: Official 2023 Wizards OFFSEASON Thread 

Post#1184 » by Hidden Eye » Tue Jul 18, 2023 4:07 pm

nate33 wrote:
Hidden Eye wrote:
nate33 wrote:Name 3 teams that are worse than us. Heck, I'm even not sure you can name 1. Even if Portland trades Lillard, are they worse than us?

Scoot > Jones
Simons = Poole
Herro = Kispert
Sharpe = Coulibaly
Thybulle = Deni
Grant > Kuzma
Nurkic = Gafford

There is greater parity now, but I don't think the worst team in the league is going to win 35 games.


Charlotte, Atl, Detroit, Nets, Magic and Raptors.

Not sure if serious. You are predicting the Wizards to finish 9th in the East?

All those teams except Detroit are easily better than the Wizards.

The Wizards might be the worst team in the league. They're in the bottom tier group with Detroit, Portland and San Antonio.


The Wizards are better than those teams.
The roster isn't complete teardown like the other teams. As far as the standings they could make the playin, I'm not seeing any roster moves currently out them over the Wiz. How is Charlotte better ? They didn't make any big moves this off-season.
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Re: Official 2023 Wizards OFFSEASON Thread 

Post#1185 » by nate33 » Tue Jul 18, 2023 4:23 pm

Hidden Eye wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Hidden Eye wrote:
Charlotte, Atl, Detroit, Nets, Magic and Raptors.

Not sure if serious. You are predicting the Wizards to finish 9th in the East?

All those teams except Detroit are easily better than the Wizards.

The Wizards might be the worst team in the league. They're in the bottom tier group with Detroit, Portland and San Antonio.


The Wizards are better than those teams.
The roster isn't complete teardown like the other teams. As far as the standings they could make the playin, I'm not seeing any roster moves currently out them over the Wiz. How is Charlotte better ? They didn't make any big moves this off-season.

Charlotte posted 43 wins two years ago with the same basic team they have now. They had ridiculous injuries last year with Bridges out all season, Ball out 50 games, Oubre out 40, Hayward out 30 and Rozier out 20. This year, they will all be back. Plus they're adding the #2 pick in the draft who balled out in Summer League. And Mark Williams, who played well late in the season, is likely to be further improved.

And Brooklyn is better than us at virtually every position:
Dinwiddie = Jones
Bridges > Poole
DFS > Deni (unless Deni makes a leap)
Cam Johnson > Kuzma
Claxton > Gafford
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Re: Official 2023 Wizards OFFSEASON Thread 

Post#1186 » by Hidden Eye » Tue Jul 18, 2023 4:46 pm

nate33 wrote:
Hidden Eye wrote:
nate33 wrote:Not sure if serious. You are predicting the Wizards to finish 9th in the East?

All those teams except Detroit are easily better than the Wizards.

The Wizards might be the worst team in the league. They're in the bottom tier group with Detroit, Portland and San Antonio.


The Wizards are better than those teams.
The roster isn't complete teardown like the other teams. As far as the standings they could make the playin, I'm not seeing any roster moves currently out them over the Wiz. How is Charlotte better ? They didn't make any big moves this off-season.

Charlotte posted 43 wins two years ago with the same basic team they have now. They had ridiculous injuries last year with Bridges out all season, Ball out 50 games, Oubre out 40, Hayward out 30 and Rozier out 20. This year, they will all be back. Plus they're adding the #2 pick in the draft who balled out in Summer League. And Mark Williams, who played well late in the season, is likely to be further improved.

And Brooklyn is better than us at virtually every position:
Dinwiddie = Jones
Bridges > Poole
DFS > Deni (unless Deni makes a leap)
Cam Johnson > Kuzma
Claxton > Gafford


Charlottes roster isn't going to be better just because of Injuries. Same thing happened to wizards, roster wise.

Every single starter isn't better than Nets. You have the stats for it? What about Nets bench?
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Re: Official 2023 Wizards OFFSEASON Thread 

Post#1187 » by nate33 » Tue Jul 18, 2023 5:26 pm

Hidden Eye wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Hidden Eye wrote:
The Wizards are better than those teams.
The roster isn't complete teardown like the other teams. As far as the standings they could make the playin, I'm not seeing any roster moves currently out them over the Wiz. How is Charlotte better ? They didn't make any big moves this off-season.

Charlotte posted 43 wins two years ago with the same basic team they have now. They had ridiculous injuries last year with Bridges out all season, Ball out 50 games, Oubre out 40, Hayward out 30 and Rozier out 20. This year, they will all be back. Plus they're adding the #2 pick in the draft who balled out in Summer League. And Mark Williams, who played well late in the season, is likely to be further improved.

And Brooklyn is better than us at virtually every position:
Dinwiddie = Jones
Bridges > Poole
DFS > Deni (unless Deni makes a leap)
Cam Johnson > Kuzma
Claxton > Gafford


Charlottes roster isn't going to be better just because of Injuries. Same thing happened to wizards, roster wise.

Every single starter isn't better than Nets. You have the stats for it? What about Nets bench?

Why don't you post stats that prove otherwise? At least I have the Vegas oddsmakers on my side. And what about OUR bench? Do you think Rollins/Davis/Coulibaly/Avdija/Muscala is some kind of juggernaut?
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Re: Official 2023 Wizards OFFSEASON Thread 

Post#1188 » by Hidden Eye » Tue Jul 18, 2023 5:59 pm

nate33 wrote:
Hidden Eye wrote:
nate33 wrote:Charlotte posted 43 wins two years ago with the same basic team they have now. They had ridiculous injuries last year with Bridges out all season, Ball out 50 games, Oubre out 40, Hayward out 30 and Rozier out 20. This year, they will all be back. Plus they're adding the #2 pick in the draft who balled out in Summer League. And Mark Williams, who played well late in the season, is likely to be further improved.

And Brooklyn is better than us at virtually every position:
Dinwiddie = Jones
Bridges > Poole
DFS > Deni (unless Deni makes a leap)
Cam Johnson > Kuzma
Claxton > Gafford


Charlottes roster isn't going to be better just because of Injuries. Same thing happened to wizards, roster wise.

Every single starter isn't better than Nets. You have the stats for it? What about Nets bench?

Why don't you post stats that prove otherwise? At least I have the Vegas oddsmakers on my side. And what about OUR bench? Do you think Rollins/Davis/Coulibaly/Avdija/Muscala is some kind of juggernaut?


Vegas oddsmakers have been historically wrong about a lot of things over the years.

Nets lost their 3 point shooter and who is going to replace his production? Nets doesn't have a 2nd unit.
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Re: Official 2023 Wizards OFFSEASON Thread 

Post#1189 » by nate33 » Tue Jul 18, 2023 6:17 pm

Hidden Eye wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Hidden Eye wrote:
Charlottes roster isn't going to be better just because of Injuries. Same thing happened to wizards, roster wise.

Every single starter isn't better than Nets. You have the stats for it? What about Nets bench?

Why don't you post stats that prove otherwise? At least I have the Vegas oddsmakers on my side. And what about OUR bench? Do you think Rollins/Davis/Coulibaly/Avdija/Muscala is some kind of juggernaut?


Vegas oddsmakers have been historically wrong about a lot of things over the years.

Nets lost their 3 point shooter and who is going to replace his production? Nets doesn't have a 2nd unit.

Okay then. Brooklyn lost 1500 minutes of Joe Harris. We lost 2100 minutes of Porzingis. Clearly, we've jumped ahead of them now. :thumbsup:
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Re: Official 2023 Wizards OFFSEASON Thread 

Post#1190 » by penbeast0 » Wed Jul 19, 2023 9:18 pm

nate33 wrote:Charlotte posted 43 wins two years ago with the same basic team they have now. They had ridiculous injuries last year with Bridges out all season, Ball out 50 games, Oubre out 40, Hayward out 30 and Rozier out 20. This year, they will all be back. Plus they're adding the #2 pick in the draft who balled out in Summer League. And Mark Williams, who played well late in the season, is likely to be further improved.

And Brooklyn is better than us at virtually every position:
Dinwiddie = Jones
Bridges > Poole
DFS > Deni (unless Deni makes a leap)
Cam Johnson > Kuzma
Claxton > Gafford


I'm sorry, care to elaborate on how Dinwiddie is as good as Tyus Jones?

He scores a bit more in terms of volume but since both were negative TS Add guys (both last year and career), not sure that's a strong plus. He isn't close in terms of playmaking, particularly turnover ratio. And, again, haven't really evaluated Tyus in terms of defense, but Dinwiddie isn't a point of attack stopper kind of guys. I see that as a clear positional advantage for Washington.

The rest, yeah, true.
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Re: Official 2023 Wizards OFFSEASON Thread 

Post#1191 » by nate33 » Wed Jul 19, 2023 9:35 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
nate33 wrote:Charlotte posted 43 wins two years ago with the same basic team they have now. They had ridiculous injuries last year with Bridges out all season, Ball out 50 games, Oubre out 40, Hayward out 30 and Rozier out 20. This year, they will all be back. Plus they're adding the #2 pick in the draft who balled out in Summer League. And Mark Williams, who played well late in the season, is likely to be further improved.

And Brooklyn is better than us at virtually every position:
Dinwiddie = Jones
Bridges > Poole
DFS > Deni (unless Deni makes a leap)
Cam Johnson > Kuzma
Claxton > Gafford


I'm sorry, care to elaborate on how Dinwiddie is as good as Tyus Jones?

He scores a bit more in terms of volume but since both were negative TS Add guys (both last year and career), not sure that's a strong plus. He isn't close in terms of playmaking, particularly turnover ratio. And, again, haven't really evaluated Tyus in terms of defense, but Dinwiddie isn't a point of attack stopper kind of guys. I see that as a clear positional advantage for Washington.

The rest, yeah, true.

Dinwiddie was the 2nd best player on a Dallas team that was 28-25 when they traded him. He was the primary option for the 2nd unit and averaged 19 points and 6 assists on a TS% of .600. He was also a big part of their WCF's run two years ago.

Yeah, Dinwiddie was a problem here, but he was quite good in Dallas, and he was good in Brooklyn before that. His game might not be aesthetically pleasing, but it's pretty effective. And being 6-5 matters on defense because he can switch.

But frankly, the Dinwiddie versus Jones debate isn't that important. Even if you want to say Jones is a little better, there's no way anyone looks at these lineups and concludes that the Wizards are in better shape than Brooklyn.
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Re: Official 2023 Wizards OFFSEASON Thread 

Post#1192 » by penbeast0 » Wed Jul 19, 2023 9:37 pm

I do agree with the overall point.
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Re: Official 2023 Wizards OFFSEASON Thread 

Post#1193 » by Silvie Lysandra » Thu Jul 20, 2023 2:16 am

I could see Washington overachieve (as in accidentally luck into the playin) if a few things happen, not all high likelihood events, but all of them are things that could reasonably happen.

- Last year was a fluke for Poole, 2021-2022 was his real baseline, and he realizes more upside beyond that. If you get the version of Pool that GSW got whenever Curry was out, that's a pretty good SG in the NBA. Like I mentioned in the other thread, it's not out of the question that Poole > Beal if you think 2022 is closer to his real baseline.

Basically Poole giving 70-80 games of say, 25/5/5 with only below average defense.

- Deni becomes neutral on offense and maintains/improves his defense. A Deni that is average offensively is an NBA starter and can push Kuzma to the 6th man role to feast on 2nd units.

- Kispert and Davis build upon their strong finishes to last season - Davis improves on defense while not being completely unplayable on offense, and Kispert evolves from merely a spot up shooter to a 3 point shooting guard/wing with some level of creation ability. Bonus if he can be average on defense. Interestingly, Klay Thompson has the exact same wingspan as he does.

- Jones is a significant upgrade over Morris and makes the offense run more smoothly.
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Re: Official 2023 Wizards OFFSEASON Thread 

Post#1194 » by NatP4 » Thu Jul 20, 2023 4:52 pm

I could see it if Kuzma is injured for a good portion of the year, and they keep Wright and trade away Shamet, send Vukcevic to Europe and use Gallinari and Muscala as rotation pieces.

Jones Wright
Poole Davis
Coulibaly Kispert
Avdija Gallinari
Gafford Muscala

That is actually a decent team that plays great defense. Gallinari and Muscala are capable of being elite role players if healthy. Coulibaly can be outstanding even as a rookie in a low usage role, next to a shot creator like Poole.

This is really what I was hoping for before the Kuzma signing, which changes everything. Admittedly, not worried about tanking, this FO knows how to draft and will find a very good player anywhere in the draft.
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Re: Official 2023 Wizards OFFSEASON Thread 

Post#1195 » by nate33 » Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:35 pm

Chaos Revenant wrote:I could see Washington overachieve (as in accidentally luck into the playin) if a few things happen, not all high likelihood events, but all of them are things that could reasonably happen.

- Last year was a fluke for Poole, 2021-2022 was his real baseline, and he realizes more upside beyond that. If you get the version of Pool that GSW got whenever Curry was out, that's a pretty good SG in the NBA. Like I mentioned in the other thread, it's not out of the question that Poole > Beal if you think 2022 is closer to his real baseline.

Basically Poole giving 70-80 games of say, 25/5/5 with only below average defense.

- Deni becomes neutral on offense and maintains/improves his defense. A Deni that is average offensively is an NBA starter and can push Kuzma to the 6th man role to feast on 2nd units.

- Kispert and Davis build upon their strong finishes to last season - Davis improves on defense while not being completely unplayable on offense, and Kispert evolves from merely a spot up shooter to a 3 point shooting guard/wing with some level of creation ability. Bonus if he can be average on defense. Interestingly, Klay Thompson has the exact same wingspan as he does.

- Jones is a significant upgrade over Morris and makes the offense run more smoothly.

Agreed. I was a bit more pessimistic when I thought that Poole was just a low efficiency chucker with terrible defense. If he was our best offensive weapon, I was sure we'd be a bottom 4 team.

But now that I've run the numbers to see that Poole is actually an almost serviceable first option scorer, there is at least the possibility that he improves a little bit to become a totally respectable first option scorer (though certainly not elite). If that happens, and if Avdija improves his 3-ball to the 35% range so that he is average on offense and good on D, then suddenly the team might not be in the bottom tier of teams (Detroit, Portland, maybe San Antonio) and instead vault into the next tier of halfway decent teams fighting for the play-in (Indiana, Toronto, Brooklyn, Houston, Orlando). I don't even think they need much improvement out of Kispert - just the expected modest improvement one sees from a player going into his 3rd year.

Basically, all it would take is for Poole to replace Beal's production, and for incremental improvements from Deni, Kispert and Jones to make up for the loss of Porzingis.

Frankly, I'm a little concerned about this. I would very much like to jettison all of our veteran depth (Shamet, Wright, Gallinari) to make sure that we are totally unable to withstand injuries. Ideally, we play like a 35-win team when everyone is healthy, but normal injuries coupled with terrible depth bring us down to 26 or so wins for the season.
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Re: Official 2023 Wizards OFFSEASON Thread 

Post#1196 » by nate33 » Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:50 pm

Another thing to keep in mind is that there is more parity now that nobody is tanking for Wemby and everyone must spend 90% of the cap. So even if we only fall off a slight bit from last year, from 35 wins to, say, 32 wins, there's a good chance that all of the competition in the East will still be better than us. It's not that we are that much worse. Everyone else is better.

Detroit is essentially adding Cade Cunningham, Ausar Thompson and Joe Harris, plus they can expect the usual improvement from 2nd year players Ivey and Duren.

Orlando went 29-28 over their last 67 games last year. They started 5-20, and played .500 ball after that. They should easily finish above us.

Charlotte's roster won 44 games two years ago. They were horrible last year because Bridges miss 82 games, Ball missed 50 games, Oubre missed 40, Hayward missed 30, and Rozier missed 20; and they committed to tanking as a result. With those guys back, plus Brandon Miller, and an improving Mark Williams, they should be better than us.

Indiana is better than us as long as Haliburton stays healthy.

Everyone else in the East played .500 ball or better. Brooklyn and Toronto might take a step back, but I doubt they will fall below us.
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Re: Official 2023 Wizards OFFSEASON Thread 

Post#1197 » by Rafael122 » Thu Jul 20, 2023 6:00 pm

nate33 wrote:Another thing to keep in mind is that there is more parity now that nobody is tanking for Wemby and everyone must spend 90% of the cap. So even if we only fall off a slight bit from last year, from 35 wins to, say, 32 wins, there's a good chance that all of the competition in the East will still be better than us. It's not that we are that much worse. Everyone else is better.

Detroit is essentially adding Cade Cunningham, Ausar Thompson and Joe Harris, plus they can expect the usual improvement from 2nd year players Ivey and Duren.

Orlando went 29-28 over their last 67 games last year. They started 5-20, and played .500 ball after that. They should easily finish above us.

Charlotte's roster won 44 games two years ago. They were horrible last year because Bridges miss 82 games, Ball missed 50 games, Oubre missed 40, Hayward missed 30, and Rozier missed 20; and they committed to tanking as a result. With those guys back, plus Brandon Miller, and an improving Mark Williams, they should be better than us.

Indiana is better than us as long as Haliburton stays healthy.

Everyone else in the East played .500 ball or better. Brooklyn and Toronto might take a step back, but I doubt they will fall below us.


This is what I'm saying though. We're projected to win 24 games by Vegas. I think that's way too low when teams worse than us last year won like 27-32 games. Detroit decided early on to tank, they don't count. Wizards could be the "worse team in the league" and still win 30 games. It's not out of the realm of possibility.
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Re: Official 2023 Wizards OFFSEASON Thread 

Post#1198 » by TGW » Thu Jul 20, 2023 6:05 pm

I don’t think the odds are necessarily based on the teams talent level, but what is perceived as the team’s strategy this year. Vegas thinks the Wizards are going to tank. I don’t see it as a slight; they are betting that the Wizards tank and tank early.
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Re: Official 2023 Wizards OFFSEASON Thread 

Post#1199 » by Rafael122 » Thu Jul 20, 2023 6:16 pm

TGW wrote:I don’t think the odds are necessarily based on the teams talent level, but what is perceived as the team’s strategy this year. Vegas thinks the Wizards are going to tank. I don’t see it as a slight; they are betting that the Wizards tank and tank early.


I'm curious what happens as we get closer to the season if that number goes up. If I were a betting man, I'd place the over. Jones/Kuzma/Poole, these guys aren't all-stars but they're not scrubs either and will keep us in games.
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Re: Official 2023 Wizards OFFSEASON Thread 

Post#1200 » by nate33 » Thu Jul 20, 2023 6:42 pm

Rafael122 wrote:
TGW wrote:I don’t think the odds are necessarily based on the teams talent level, but what is perceived as the team’s strategy this year. Vegas thinks the Wizards are going to tank. I don’t see it as a slight; they are betting that the Wizards tank and tank early.


I'm curious what happens as we get closer to the season if that number goes up. If I were a betting man, I'd place the over. Jones/Kuzma/Poole, these guys aren't all-stars but they're not scrubs either and will keep us in games.

I think a big issue will be depth.

If we keep Shamet, Wright and Gallinari, we will have the depth to overcome the usual injuries one expects over the course of a regular season. But if we dump those guys before the season starts, we will have no margin for error. In that scenario, if Tyus Jones or Jordan Poole misses 25 games, we will probably lose 20 of them.

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