Official John Wall Appreciation Thread 2.0

[tontoz]

The offensive talent in the starting lineup is a joke no doubt. However, is there a starting pg in the NBA with a worse jumper than Wall?

[jivelikenice]

In regards to BruceO's comments, Is it really overcompensating though to not want to have the worst collection of skill players in the NBA alongside Wall?

Out of the 30 teams in the league is there a starting lineup with less offensive talent than ours?

All I want is Wall to get a fair shot, because frankly he's been put into the perfect position to fail.

+1

[montestewart]

In regards to BruceO's comments, Is it really overcompensating though to not want to have the worst collection of skill players in the NBA alongside Wall?

Out of the 30 teams in the league is there a starting lineup with less offensive talent than ours?

All I want is Wall to get a fair shot, because frankly he's been put into the perfect position to fail.

+1

It's almost like John Wall's shortcomings are Terd and Ernie's unspoken biggest excuses: "We had the #1 and Wall was the undisputed consensus #1 pick. It's not our fault." Sure, and he may never merit being picked so high, but the team around him mostly sucks, and that's on Terd and Ernie, not on Wall (and not on Wittman either).

[jivelikenice]

^Its not an excuse for them at all. They have had 2 years to evaluate him and put players that fit around him. They got Beal, but what else? I'm sure their plan didn't entail Webster starting at the 3. They let a cheap in house option like James Singleton go and the relied on their own picks up front, who still can't be counted on at all....They're not excused in this at all.

[Dat2U]

The offensive talent in the starting lineup is a joke no doubt. However, is there a starting pg in the NBA with a worse jumper than Wall?

Yes, at 36% from 16 ft out & further, he certainly isn't the worst this year.

I'd like him to raise his TS% at least in the .520/.530 range from .500. Get a bit more efficient. His shot looks better but to me it looks like he's struggling to finish. Part of that may be working his way back into elite shape the other part is that the lane is so congested he's trying to finish over 2 or 3 people at times.

[BruceO]

i like john wall personally. what i'm saying is we can't gloss over his flaws if they are unchangeable and fatal. we can build a team, around him that can hide those flaws which would be a stretch four who has D and a point forward who can shoot. So where can we get those type guys? anyone in mind? they are kinda rare is my point. Same flaw toronto did with bosh, suns with amare. starting a puzzle with a piece thats hard to build around because of a fatal positional flaw. His positive outweigh negatives. Thats why we cannot build around him in order to ignore those issues. He should work on them no excuses. Put lipstick on a pig its still a pig. those flaws should be resolved.

people letting him off the hook to easy for things a point guard should do just because he's immensely talented in other areas

[tontoz]

The offensive talent in the starting lineup is a joke no doubt. However, is there a starting pg in the NBA with a worse jumper than Wall?

Yes, at 36% from 16 ft out & further, he certainly isn't the worst this year.

I'd like him to raise his TS% at least in the .520/.530 range from .500. Get a bit more efficient. His shot looks better but to me it looks like he's struggling to finish. Part of that may be working his way back into elite shape the other part is that the lane is so congested he's trying to finish over 2 or 3 people at times.

Then who is? I haven't seen anyone who is worse from the perimeter than Wall. Certainly not a starter.

Other guys make 3s which obviously raises their EFG% from the perimeter. Wall has made only one 3 pointer in 13 games.

Wall has a responsibility to improve his own game just like EG has a responsibility to get better teamates around him. So far there is fail on both fronts.

[Dat2U]

I remember kept saying you can't build around a combo guard. "We need a real point guard!", people said.

Now, we got a real point guard and folks wanna say we can't build around him... lol.

I have no idea what Bosh (who won a ring in case you forgot) and Amare have to do with Wall & the Wizards. We aren't likely trading for either. Nor would I consider Amare or Bosh stretch 4s...

All I can is thank goodness you and CCJ didn't get your wish. DeMarcus Cousins is still sporting a TS% lower than John Wall and has already had at least 5 incidents involving either coaches or teammates that have gone public. He probably would have been traded by EG for peanuts on the dollar by now.

[Dat2U]

The offensive talent in the starting lineup is a joke no doubt. However, is there a starting pg in the NBA with a worse jumper than Wall?

Yes, at 36% from 16 ft out & further, he certainly isn't the worst this year.

I'd like him to raise his TS% at least in the .520/.530 range from .500. Get a bit more efficient. His shot looks better but to me it looks like he's struggling to finish. Part of that may be working his way back into elite shape the other part is that the lane is so congested he's trying to finish over 2 or 3 people at times.

Then who is? I haven't seen anyone who is worse from the perimeter than Wall. Certainly not a starter.

Other guys make 3s which obviously raises their EFG% from the perimeter. Wall has made only one 3 pointer in 13 games.

Wall has a responsibility to improve his own game just like EG has a responsibility to get better teamates around him. So far there is fail on both fronts.

Look tontoz, I'm not getting into an argument about this (calm down!) lol.

I'm just saying he's not the worst perimeter shooter AT THE MOMENT! At 36% from 16 ft & out, he's probably not even the worse on the team.

So far this year, he's improved. We'll see if that actually holds up.

[BruceO]

my point about bosh or amare is that the teams that originally drafted them finally gave up on building around them because despite being franchise players were flawed. Now bosh winning a ring has nothing to do with him and more to do with lebron and wade being teammates of his. are you suggesting toronto should have gotten a lebron and wade for them to make it work? very unlikely. When your main guy has flaws you chose to ignore it makes it impossible to build a team around them. Yes wall is a pure pg. But he turns the ball over too much almost negating that effect. I have more qualms with the turnovers than the jumpshot.
Minnesota is making the same mistake with love. Great player..doesn't play defense.
him having these flaws limits flexibility when building around him. only true franchise players are lebron, durant, rose, kg, duncan, gasol, kobe..and a handful others.

[Nivek]

I agree with BruceO's point. You don't build around a guy with the kind of serious flaws that Wall has. The issue isn't the TYPE of player you build around (combo guard vs. pure PG), but the quality of the player. In Wall's case, he still wastes waaaaaaay too many possessions. Here are his offensive ratings (pts produced per 100 possessions -- a stat that explicitly accounts for the value of assists) for each season of his career: 100, 100, 99. League average during those years: 107.3, 104.6, 105.3.

Wall MIGHT become a franchise-level building block, but he has to do something to become more efficient offensively. OR, he needs to dramatically reduce his role on offense, become a lock-down defender and crash the boards. Something has to change about how he plays the game, because what he's producing now isn't good enough to warrant consideration as a foundational player.

That won't stop the Wizards from considering him as their foundational player, of course.

[tontoz]

[Look tontoz, I'm not getting into an argument about this (calm down!) lol.

I'm just saying he's not the worst perimeter shooter AT THE MOMENT! At 36% from 16 ft & out, he's probably not even the worse on the team.

So far this year, he's improved. We'll see if that actually holds up.

I was talking about starting pgs, not all players in the league.

If you remember your original post you were asking about the offensive talent in the starting lineup and whether or not the Wizards had the worst offensive talent among starters in the league. I have no problem conceding that point. However Wall is part of the problem.

Whether or not he improves his jumper will be the deciding factor to me as far as resigning him. I know he has turnover issues as well but to me that is secondary right now. I think his turnover issues would be less of a problem with better teamates/spacing but his shooting is on him.

[Dat2U]

I really don't understand the argument tho. No one is saying surround Wall with role players. What I'm saying is we've asked Wall to become a franchise building block for a roster that's a complete mess. It would be nice to surround him with better talent.

That should be goal whether Wall is a building block or not, to get more talent on the roster.

[Dat2U]

[Look tontoz, I'm not getting into an argument about this (calm down!) lol.

I'm just saying he's not the worst perimeter shooter AT THE MOMENT! At 36% from 16 ft & out, he's probably not even the worse on the team.

So far this year, he's improved. We'll see if that actually holds up.

I was talking about starting pgs, not all players in the league.

If you remember your original post you were asking about the offensive talent in the starting lineup and whether or not the Wizards had the worst offensive talent among starters in the league. I have no problem conceding that point. However Wall is part of the problem.

Whether or not he improves his jumper will be the deciding factor to me as far as resigning him. I know he has turnover issues as well but to me that is secondary right now. I think his turnover issues would be less of a problem with better teamates/spacing but his shooting is on him.

Wall is a part of the problem but we've also have ample evidence of what this team looks like offensively without Wall:

One of the worst offenses in NBA history.

I'm just saying, get the man some help. I have a hard time being critical of the dude when he's been dealt such a bad hand.

[tontoz]

Wall is a part of the problem but we've also have ample evidence of what this team looks like offensively without Wall:

One of the worst offenses in NBA history.

I'm just saying, get the man some help. I have a hard time being critical of the dude when he's been dealt such a bad hand.

I agree that the team around him is a joke which is why i haven't been taking him to task for his numerous mental errors (which Nivek regularly references). Maybe he would still make the same dumb mistakes on a better team but i am giving him the benefit of the doubt.

However his jumper is not influenced by the garbage around him. He is being left open on the perimeter all the time. It is up to him to start making shots or stop taking so many of them.

[Nivek]

I keep talking about the mental errors because they're a pattern that was evident when he was at Kentucky and has persisted in his pro career. In college, he had such physical superiority over his opponents, and he had quality teammates so that his team could overcome the mistakes. But the flaws in his game we're seeing with the Wizards were evident when he had better teammates and faced lesser competition in college.

[tontoz]

I keep talking about the mental errors because they're a pattern that was evident when he was at Kentucky and has persisted in his pro career. In college, he had such physical superiority over his opponents, and he had quality teammates so that his team could overcome the mistakes. But the flaws in his game we're seeing with the Wizards were evident when he had better teammates and faced lesser competition in college.

I understand where you are coming from and i can't argue with you. If i could argue with you i certainly would

I have seen him play at different paces this year which he didn't do in the past. I think part of his turnover problems are due to (in addition to his own issues) poor spacing/teamates but obviously i can't be sure. My opinion is that with better teamates and more maturity the turnovers will be less of an issue but maybe that is just wishful thinking.

[Dark Faze]

I think it's pretty clear that John is still in the process of actually learning how to play basketball. He dominated in high school with street ball handles and athleticism. If that's all he had to offer at PG I'd be all for trading him, the problem is that he has elite court vision and high level passing abilities.

He's probably a good three years away from effectively using screens and being a better half-court player, but he can still be a win now player and all-star so long as he has the proper weapons around him.

It's no surprise that John hasn't broken out because his numbers are only going to be as good as the finishers around him. When we had Beal he was getting his numbers up there just by having two legit shooting threats on the perimeter. With Beal out there is just Martell. That and with Randys rotations he sees a lot of minutes with ball stoppers like Ariza and Crawford.

Bring in a guy like Granger, draft another shooter in the Klay Thompson mold along with bringing Martell off the bench and I think you'd see consisteng quality numbers from Wall.

[Nivek]

See, but the problem with Wall isn't really "finishers." His assist numbers are good, for example. The problems are his own shooting and his turnovers. Those aren't really teammate related. Better teammates would help the TEAM be better, but Wall still has to address the deficiencies in his own game.

This is probably sounding a lot more critical of Wall than I intend it to be. I like him, and he's sooooooo young that I still have tons of hope that he'll figure it out and become the franchise building block he's already been proclaimed to be (by the team). I'm just saying what I think everyone would agree: he has to get better. Getting better teammates is desirable AND necessary if the team is to improve, but Wall has to get better as an individual.

[tontoz]

See, but the problem with Wall isn't really "finishers." His assist numbers are good, for example. The problems are his own shooting and his turnovers. Those aren't really teammate related. Better teammates would help the TEAM be better, but Wall still has to address the deficiencies in his own game.

This is probably sounding a lot more critical of Wall than I intend it to be. I like him, and he's sooooooo young that I still have tons of hope that he'll figure it out and become the franchise building block he's already been proclaimed to be (by the team). I'm just saying what I think everyone would agree: he has to get better. Getting better teammates is desirable AND necessary if the team is to improve, but Wall has to get better as an individual.

OK now this i can argue with. Given that the only real way Wall can contribute offensively is to drive to the basket, and better spacing would make it easier to drive, i think better teamates would definitely help him on the turnover front. I also think he sometimes feels a sense of desperation out there to score, given the lack of talent around him, and ends up forcing the issue more than he would otherwise.

I certainly don't think all of his turnover woes can be blamed on his teamates but i think some of them can. How much is certainly an open question.