John Wall is the best PG in the East right now

[JonathanJoseph]

The hammering of Wall after last night's game seems odd to me. The Wizards struggled whenever he was on the bench. They were -2 with him on the floor in a game they lost by 13.

For the season, the Wizards have net POSITIVE efficiency differential (ortg - drtg) with Wall on the floor. When he's on the bench, they have a MASSIVE efficiency differential.

Code: Select all

STAT    w/Wall  wo/Wall
Ortg    107     87
Drtg    106     113
PytW    44      2


Wall isn't playing at an elite level, but he's FAR from The Problem this year. The team is decent when he's on the floor; they're a toxic dumpster fire when he's on the bench.

Not sure the issues are mutually exclusive. The whole Wizards bench is terrible. Seems to me the key ingredient for the Wizards is Nene, not Wall. And Beal's shooting %.

[JonathanJoseph]

Wall is much like Arenas in one way. He's a rhythm player capable of long hot streaks and significant cold streaks. And he's obviously a slow starter. His so-so start is not surprising to me at all. I'd expect him to play better as the year goes on. And that's not too uncommon with many vets to be honest.

And Arenas never had the emotional temperament or leadership abilities to carry a championship team either. Thus why we needed a true leader and star big back then as well (instead of AJ).

That's a correct criticism of Arenas. However, to imply that Wall has the temperment or leadership skills is insane.

[JonathanJoseph]

that's why we went undefeated in the Arenas era? Oh wait, that didn't happen.
Gil just felt it was more interesting if the other team won sometimes?

Oh that's ridiculous. Those Arenas teams got heavy minutes from Michael Ruffin, Jared Jeffries and Jarvis Hayes and Arenas got them to the second round. Wall hasn't gotten the Wizards within shouting distance of .500.

[nuposse04]

I have no clue who you are JJ, but you seem to be railing against Wall pretty hard...did he personally douche you over or something? I understand you still idolize Arenas for making us relevant for a brief point in time...but eh...time moves on. I'm not happy with Wall's shot selection thus far this season either, but most of the failures can be pinned onto a lack of consistent effort and a horrible bench. Yes Arenas had great years with us but Wall simply won't ever be the scorer he was. Giving up on a 23 year old high pedigree PG that did in fact have a good year last season believe it or not seems rather...well...(Please Use More Appropriate Word), at least this early in the season. By all means berate him for his problems thus far, but I get the impression you think Wall will simply never reach the playoffs (or you actually don't want him to succeed so you can rub one out on all of us).

[jivelikenice]

that's why we went undefeated in the Arenas era? Oh wait, that didn't happen.
Gil just felt it was more interesting if the other team won sometimes?

Oh that's ridiculous. Those Arenas teams got heavy minutes from Michael Ruffin, Jared Jeffries and Jarvis Hayes and Arenas got them to the second round. Wall hasn't gotten the Wizards within shouting distance of .500.

The Arenas team that made round 2 had 3 20 pt scores, a good defensive center in Haywood, and had some great individual efforts such as a 20 pt game from Etan Thomas in game 3 and a 35 pt performance in game 4 from Juan Dixon against the Bulls. In the series clinching game, Gil went 6-24, so while he was a the key piece to that team, lets not act like he was the Lone Ranger out there taking out the Bulls on his own.

In general the Gil obsession is comedic. I loved Gil because of how fearless he played and how he refused to take accept a back seat or back down to the anointed elites. That being said we did make ONE rd 2 and his actions including his ridiculous approach to his rehab and his indifference to playing D made him a flawed superstar. Then of course there was the incident. The greater point is most teams and fanbases have a hard time replacing or moving on from a superstar and have a hangover period where its difficult to embrace the next guy. It's comical ppl are still hung up over Arenas and indicative of how $hitty our history has been.

[JonathanJoseph]

I have no clue who you are JJ, but you seem to be railing against Wall pretty hard...did he personally douche you over or something? I understand you still idolize Arenas for making us relevant for a brief point in time...but eh...time moves on. I'm not happy with Wall's shot selection thus far this season either, but most of the failures can be pinned onto a lack of consistent effort and a horrible bench. Yes Arenas had great years with us but Wall simply won't ever be the scorer he was. Giving up on a 23 year old high pedigree PG that did in fact have a good year last season believe it or not seems rather...well...(Please Use More Appropriate Word), at least this early in the season. By all means berate him for his problems thus far, but I get the impression you think Wall will simply never reach the playoffs (or you actually don't want him to succeed so you can rub one out on all of us).

I have no idea what Gilbert Arenas has to do with John Wall or my opinion of him. I didn't bring up Arenas in this thread, feel free to check.

It is my opinion that John Wall is great athlete and a bad PG. That's what I see every time I watch him. I don't like watching him play and I hated playing with that kind of player when I played pick up ball. I'm not saying anything that David Falk hasn't said and I'm seeing the same thing that has Nene fired up right now.

While I'm sure that Wall will improve yet, he's a country mile from being a max player. And as a long suffering Wizards fan, I see us now stuck with another really bad contract for another 5 years. That's why I'm frustrated.

[tontoz]

I didn't understand the point of giving Wall the max last summer, and railed against it at the time, but whatever. EG is obviously always in a hurry to spend money. He couldn't wait to pay Maynor and Webster as well. Teams have all the leverage with RFAs and EG just pissed it away because he has no spine.

Anyway right now Walls 2 point percentage is 39%, well below his career average of 44%. I think we can expect that to come up. I think Wall worked hard this summer on his jumper and was anxious to show his improvement, but he needs to realize he isn't KD.

The encouraging thing is that he is taking 3s and making them at a reasonable percentage, something he needed to do to become a more complete player.

[barelyawake]

Wall is much like Arenas in one way. He's a rhythm player capable of long hot streaks and significant cold streaks. And he's obviously a slow starter. His so-so start is not surprising to me at all. I'd expect him to play better as the year goes on. And that's not too uncommon with many vets to be honest.

And Arenas never had the emotional temperament or leadership abilities to carry a championship team either. Thus why we needed a true leader and star big back then as well (instead of AJ).

That's a correct criticism of Arenas. However, to imply that Wall has the temperment or leadership skills is insane.

A) I'm obviously insane. And have said so repeatedly in other threads.
B) What I "implied" was the exact opposite of what you posted. And I have said so repeatedly in other threads, this thread, and the post you quoted. The words "either" and "as well" were put there for a reason.

[Higga]

Wall will be fine. It's early in the season and the schedule has been pretty tough. Give him some games against the likes of Orlando and Charlotte and his numbers and play will stabilize some.

[nuposse04]

I have no idea what Gilbert Arenas has to do with John Wall or my opinion of him. I didn't bring up Arenas in this thread, feel free to check.

hmmm

Oh that's ridiculous. Those Arenas teams got heavy minutes from Michael Ruffin, Jared Jeffries and Jarvis Hayes and Arenas got them to the second round. Wall hasn't gotten the Wizards within shouting distance of .500.

It is my opinion that John Wall is great athlete and a bad PG. That's what I see every time I watch him. I don't like watching him play and I hated playing with that kind of player when I played pick up ball. I'm not saying anything that David Falk hasn't said and I'm seeing the same thing that has Nene fired up right now.

PG duties for the most part are setting up your offense and being a scoring option. Sans the SAS game, Wall has set up his teammates fine this year. Bashing him for his excessive amount of long 2s however is perfectly acceptable.

While I'm sure that Wall will improve yet, he's a country mile from being a max player. And as a long suffering Wizards fan, I see us now stuck with another really bad contract for another 5 years. That's why I'm frustrated.

Wall averaged 20-8 on relatively decent efficiency last season. I suspect he'll get back towards that. His 3pt shot is better this year, whether people want to believe it or not. If he reverts back to his previous season's efficiency then his contract won't be an issue this season. NEXT season is when people have a right to demand seeing a considerable jump (Like CP3 numbers).

[JonathanJoseph]

Wall will be fine. It's early in the season and the schedule has been pretty tough. Give him some games against the likes of Orlando and Charlotte and his numbers and play will stabilize some.

It should be obvious, but that's not something you should ever have to say about a player you've already given a max contract to.

[JonathanJoseph]

I have no idea what Gilbert Arenas has to do with John Wall or my opinion of him. I didn't bring up Arenas in this thread, feel free to check.

hmmm

Oh that's ridiculous. Those Arenas teams got heavy minutes from Michael Ruffin, Jared Jeffries and Jarvis Hayes and Arenas got them to the second round. Wall hasn't gotten the Wizards within shouting distance of .500.

It is my opinion that John Wall is great athlete and a bad PG. That's what I see every time I watch him. I don't like watching him play and I hated playing with that kind of player when I played pick up ball. I'm not saying anything that David Falk hasn't said and I'm seeing the same thing that has Nene fired up right now.

PG duties for the most part are setting up your offense and being a scoring option. Sans the SAS game, Wall has set up his teammates fine this year. Bashing him for his excessive amount of long 2s however is perfectly acceptable.

While I'm sure that Wall will improve yet, he's a country mile from being a max player. And as a long suffering Wizards fan, I see us now stuck with another really bad contract for another 5 years. That's why I'm frustrated.

Wall averaged 20-8 on relatively decent efficiency last season. I suspect he'll get back towards that. His 3pt shot is better this year, whether people want to believe it or not. If he reverts back to his previous season's efficiency then his contract won't be an issue this season. NEXT season is when people have a right to demand seeing a considerable jump (Like CP3 numbers).

I didn't bring Arenas to the conversation. I only responded. And you'll find that I won't be continuing to bring him up either.

As to Wall's numbers, I'm not going to argue that Wall isn't putting up great numbers. He can do that because he's athletically superior to most other guards in the NBA. That doesn't mean he is playing winning basketball. As I've said before, Wall's statistical output is fools gold.

[nuposse04]

I didn't bring Arenas to the conversation. I only responded. And you'll find that I won't be continuing to bring him up either.

Hmm Dat2u, was the first to bring him up, but from most of your recent responses in this tread I get the feeling you're using Prime Arenas as a barometer for what Wall needs to live up to. Also keep in mind, Wall is on the rookie contract still, he doesn't need to live up to this expectations until next season, he does however HAVE to lead them into playoff contendership.

As to Wall's numbers, I'm not going to argue that Wall isn't putting up great numbers. He can do that because he's athletically superior to most other guards in the NBA. That doesn't mean he is playing winning basketball. As I've said before, Wall's statistical output is fools gold.

Wall isn't shooting well this season (at least from the 2) no one will debate that. But if you actually think the team can without him ur sadly mistaken. I still think we need to wait 20 games or so before we start blanket statements regarding the progress or lack of progress from any of our players.

[JonathanJoseph]

I didn't bring Arenas to the conversation. I only responded. And you'll find that I won't be continuing to bring him up either.

Hmm Dat2u, was the first to bring him up, but from most of your recent responses in this tread I get the feeling you're using Prime Arenas as a barometer for what Wall needs to live up to. Also keep in mind, Wall is on the rookie contract still, he doesn't need to live up to this expectations until next season, he does however HAVE to lead them into playoff contendership.

As to Wall's numbers, I'm not going to argue that Wall isn't putting up great numbers. He can do that because he's athletically superior to most other guards in the NBA. That doesn't mean he is playing winning basketball. As I've said before, Wall's statistical output is fools gold.

Wall isn't shooting well this season (at least from the 2) no one will debate that. But if you actually think the team can without him ur sadly mistaken. I still think we need to wait 20 games or so before we start blanket statements regarding the progress or lack of progress from any of our players.

These are ridiculous strawman arguments. My critique of Wall is stated clearly and has nothing to do with Arenas. Wall has no basketball IQ and that's a problem for a PG. Period. Full stop. Nothing to do with Arenas.

As for the rest of your statement, I'm not suggesting the Wizards would be better with Maynor. I'm suggesting that Wall is a good enough player to win some games in the NBA, but to lose more than he wins (because he doesn't play a smart brand of basketball and as the PG and max player, that infects the whole team). I do not see the Wizards ever winning a playoff series with John Wall. Or if the east is really bad, never getting past the second round. Max players are supposed to get their teams well better than "into playoff contendership".

As for him not needing to look like a max player until next year, that's absurd. The commitment has been made. If he's not yet playing max basketball, he shouldn't have received the contract offer. No successful franchise would ever operate that way.

[nuposse04]

These are ridiculous strawman arguments. My critique of Wall is stated clearly and has nothing to do with Arenas. Wall has no basketball IQ and that's a problem for a PG. Period. Full stop. Nothing to do with Arenas.

Well you haven't made any such compelling arguments thus far. Saying he has no BBiq is also telling about either, how arrogant you are or simply how incompetent you are when judging players. Maybe both?

As for the rest of your statement, I'm not suggesting the Wizards would be better with Maynor. I'm suggesting that Wall is a good enough player to win some games in the NBA, but to lose more than he wins (because he doesn't play a smart brand of basketball and as the PG and max player, that infects the whole team). I do not see the Wizards ever winning a playoff series with John Wall. Or if the east is really bad, never getting past the second round. Max players are supposed to get their teams well better than "into playoff contendership".

You're projecting a lot of failures along his career. Like you actually think he won't improve at all. Oh and small sample size last season, but when Wall was healthy and he had most of our starters, we had a +.500 record. Now obviously that was last season, but it is hard to get the same returns with Beal slumping and Nene refusing to rebound. Wall is a max player NEXT season, I'm not sure why you're putting that burden on him now. You do know it starts next season, right? Are you oblivious to that fact?

As for him not needing to look like a max player until next year, that's absurd. The commitment has been made. If he's not yet playing max basketball, he shouldn't have received the contract offer. No successful franchise would ever operate that way.

You're a wiz fan too right? You should know how this franchise operates by now . Last seasons Wall was good enough to warrant 12 mil per IMO. I don't think he deserves max, I think we should have waited, but I certainly don't blame the organization for locking him up now, cause somebody else would have. It isn't absurd either to hold him to the standards his current contract warrants. A 4th year rookie that was number 1 overall should perform enough to get us in the playoffs. That is what I expect out of him. I think you are expecting more cause it is something you irrationally want to do.

Also, I think you WANT Wall to fail, Just like Dat2u and others WANT EG to fail at the expense of the team. There are a lot of posters on this board who like to project certain failures (however accurate those projections may be) regarding management and players. It is fine if you aren't a fan of him, but if he actually became a max player I think you'd be totally flaccid. I also think its funny, you start posting again after he struggles...not so much a peep pre pre-season and during those 2 great months. Which is fine, you're totally allowed to be half mast right now.

(Note, I'm not angel either, I eagerly await the day that both CP3 and Wade flop into one another and their knees explode )

[dobrojim]

sorry

if you think wall has "no basketball IQ" than I think most people on this board
would strongly disagree with you. And for the most part, this is a pretty smart
board not to break my arm patting myself on the back for being a part of it.

As for him not needing to look like a max player until next year, that's absurd. The commitment has been made. If he's not yet playing max basketball, he shouldn't have received the contract offer. No successful franchise would ever operate that way.

So would a successful franchise offer an injured player, like say Gilbert Arenas,
a max contract before he proved he had returned to his previous elite level?

I do not see the Wizards ever winning a playoff series with John Wall. Or if the east is really bad, never getting past the second round. Max players are supposed to get their teams well better than "into playoff contendership".

Should the Knicks have paid or traded for Carmelo at his salary?
He's won about as many playoff series as Gilbert did.

[Ruzious]

I didn't bring Arenas to the conversation. I only responded. And you'll find that I won't be continuing to bring him up either.

Hmm Dat2u, was the first to bring him up, but from most of your recent responses in this tread I get the feeling you're using Prime Arenas as a barometer for what Wall needs to live up to. Also keep in mind, Wall is on the rookie contract still, he doesn't need to live up to this expectations until next season, he does however HAVE to lead them into playoff contendership.

As to Wall's numbers, I'm not going to argue that Wall isn't putting up great numbers. He can do that because he's athletically superior to most other guards in the NBA. That doesn't mean he is playing winning basketball. As I've said before, Wall's statistical output is fools gold.

Wall isn't shooting well this season (at least from the 2) no one will debate that. But if you actually think the team can without him ur sadly mistaken. I still think we need to wait 20 games or so before we start blanket statements regarding the progress or lack of progress from any of our players.

These are ridiculous strawman arguments. My critique of Wall is stated clearly and has nothing to do with Arenas. Wall has no basketball IQ and that's a problem for a PG. Period. Full stop. Nothing to do with Arenas.

As for the rest of your statement, I'm not suggesting the Wizards would be better with Maynor. I'm suggesting that Wall is a good enough player to win some games in the NBA, but to lose more than he wins (because he doesn't play a smart brand of basketball and as the PG and max player, that infects the whole team). I do not see the Wizards ever winning a playoff series with John Wall. Or if the east is really bad, never getting past the second round. Max players are supposed to get their teams well better than "into playoff contendership".

As for him not needing to look like a max player until next year, that's absurd. The commitment has been made. If he's not yet playing max basketball, he shouldn't have received the contract offer. No successful franchise would ever operate that way.

Seems to me you're just as off as anyone who would call him the best PG in the East - which is nobody at this point. Calling him a bust - as you have - at this point is at best premature. At least wait till he really is a max player before demanding he play like one. And really, he's not even going to be a true max player. There are 3 levels of max contracts - 25% of the cap, 30%, and 35%. He's going to be at the 25% level.

You're entitled to opinions like - they'll never win a playoff series with John Wall, but if that turns out to be true, it'll most likely be because of poor management, and my impression is that your opinion of him does go back to Arenas and how you absolutely hated to see Arenas go and his place basically being taken by Wall.

[Nivek]

This "Wall doesn't get the max until next year so he shouldn't have to carry the burden until next season" argument doesn't make much sense to me. He already signed the extension, and the Wizards have committed to him as its franchise player. I don't think it's unfair to expect him to begin performing like a franchise/max-worthy player beginning this season. He's The Guy, according to the folks who run the team. I think it's perfectly fair for fans to expect him to perform like The Guy.

He's young, but this is his fourth season. He's producing about like he's been producing the past couple years, albeit with even worse shooting from 2pt range. Rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, turnovers -- all right in line with his aggregate numbers for the past two seasons. Which a) isn't worth a max salary; and b) (if they remain steady) suggest that what we see is what we're going to get. What Wall has done the past couple years isn't bad -- it would make him a solid starting PG. But not a franchise player. And that would be bad for the Wizards.

It would be in the team's best interest for Wall to start producing at a higher level. The sooner the better.

[Dat2U]

I didn't bring Arenas to the conversation. I only responded. And you'll find that I won't be continuing to bring him up either.

Hmm Dat2u, was the first to bring him up, but from most of your recent responses in this tread I get the feeling you're using Prime Arenas as a barometer for what Wall needs to live up to. Also keep in mind, Wall is on the rookie contract still, he doesn't need to live up to this expectations until next season, he does however HAVE to lead them into playoff contendership.

As to Wall's numbers, I'm not going to argue that Wall isn't putting up great numbers. He can do that because he's athletically superior to most other guards in the NBA. That doesn't mean he is playing winning basketball. As I've said before, Wall's statistical output is fools gold.

Wall isn't shooting well this season (at least from the 2) no one will debate that. But if you actually think the team can without him ur sadly mistaken. I still think we need to wait 20 games or so before we start blanket statements regarding the progress or lack of progress from any of our players.

These are ridiculous strawman arguments. My critique of Wall is stated clearly and has nothing to do with Arenas. Wall has no basketball IQ and that's a problem for a PG. Period. Full stop. Nothing to do with Arenas.

As for the rest of your statement, I'm not suggesting the Wizards would be better with Maynor. I'm suggesting that Wall is a good enough player to win some games in the NBA, but to lose more than he wins (because he doesn't play a smart brand of basketball and as the PG and max player, that infects the whole team). I do not see the Wizards ever winning a playoff series with John Wall. Or if the east is really bad, never getting past the second round. Max players are supposed to get their teams well better than "into playoff contendership".

As for him not needing to look like a max player until next year, that's absurd. The commitment has been made. If he's not yet playing max basketball, he shouldn't have received the contract offer. No successful franchise would ever operate that way.

LOL. Your like the Mike Wise of realgm. You've been on the wrong side of nearly every argument in all the years you've been here. I unblocked you earlier this year after seeing someone else quote your silliness because your like that ongoing joke that becomes funny after not being funny for so long.

You know about the blinding speed, the freakish athleticism and the explosive first step. But what you might not know about Wizards rookie point guard John Wall is how high his basketball IQ is.

Before Sunday's exhibition game against the Knicks, coach Flip Saunders explained Wall's uncommon court awareness.

"It seems like he's got a photographic memory," Saunders said. "If you tell him something once, like a certain play, he remembers what all five positions should be doing. We knew he was athletic and we knew he had great competitive spirit, but I don't think anybody understood his intelligence and being able to carry that through.
"Is that uncommon in our league? Yeah, it's very uncommon. You have some guys in the sixth month of the season and they still can't remember where they are supposed to go. But we show him a play one time and he knows where everybody is supposed to be."

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/w ... z2kkC9vNVj

Later on in the interview (around the 57:30 mark), Simmons and Collins talk about Rajon Rondo's sense of humor, his prowess with Connect Four and his basketball I.Q., and the conversation steers into some high praise of the Wizards. The partial transcript is below:

Bill Simmons: Did you get a handle on Rondo after five months? Everybody says he's kinda like a genius.


...

Jason Collins: Sometimes during practice, Doc [Rivers] would let the players draw up the plays, because he wants guys thinking. And Rondo would draw up some great plays.

BS: Really?

JC: Yeah. I really gained an appreciation for his court-awareness on both ends of the court. Offensive and defensive, and the way he thinks the game. And along those same lines is John Wall.

BS: JOHN WALL? I NEVER would have guessed that.

JC: Yeah, exactly. But he really thinks the game. And, for a young player to already start to develop that sense of your awareness on the court and be able to anticipate what different plays are and where different players are going to be, you know he really impressed me with his court awareness.

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2013/5/2/ ... ajon-rondo

Randy Wittman believes John Wall is one of the smartest players he's ever coached. His proof? The Wizards' point guard is the first one to call out the other team's plays.

"He knows, from a scouting standpoint, the plays that the other team [runs]. He'll call that out sometimes, which is pretty good. [He remembers] that we've played Milwaukee three times and that '54 Dive' is a play for [Ersan] Ilyasova. That's a talent you can't teach," the Wizards' coach says.

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2013/3/14 ... -john-wall

I guess these people all just tell lies and/or no nothing about basketball. Go ahead and tell us how wrong they are and how your right.

[Nivek]

And really, he's not even going to be a true max player. There are 3 levels of max contracts - 25% of the cap, 30%, and 35%. He's going to be at the 25% level.

This one doesn't work for me. It's true that Wall is at the 25% max level, BUT the Wizards have agreed to pay him the maximum amount they're permitted to pay him under the rules of the collective bargaining agreement. He's a maximum salary player, period.