2021 Draft thread. Woo! 15th pick here we come! Hoo. Ray.

[pcbothwel]

Why would we draft Franz Wagner? We already have Rui, Advija, Bonga, Brown Jr. Unless you think he's a lock for multiple all-star games there's really no justification.

Sorry, but this is really misguided. The only archetypes where you worry about overlap are
1) Lead/ball handling guards that either cant defend well and/or are poor off ball players. I.E. Kyrie, DLo, Wall, Westbrook, etc.
2) Center Only bigs that can only defend 1 position. I.E. Thomas Bryant, KAT, etc.

Other than that, you can mix and match players quite often. And as to your assertion about what we "already have." Deni projects as a plus defender at 2, possibly 3 positions. Combined with his high IQ & activity, he can play with multiple lineups.
Brown cant get off the bench, but is a playmaking 2, Bonga is a low usage role player with defensive versatility, and Rui hasnt shown enough to be counted on as a starter on a playoff team.

Franz, undeniably, is far better and more accomplished than all those guys at the same age. Obviously a lot depends on work ethic moving forward, but he is a better prospect than Hayward or Otto were and were picked 3 & 8.

Only thing is - Franz does not project well defensively, and we're a very bad defensive team. That doesn't mean we don't consider him, but if we do pick him, we would need to make more adjustments in our roster, imo - and I'm doubtful we have a GM who can handle that adequately.

Huh? Franz averages more blocks & steals than Otto or Hayward with a higher DBPM while playing elite competition. So nothing statistically backs up this assertion.
He passes the eye test too. Not a great athlete, but moves his feet ok and has great/active hands. Very active, but not overzealous (I.E. fouling, jumping lanes, etc.).

High IQ players that give effort and have GOOD COACHING (Not Brooks.. ) can always defend to a satisfactory level.

I love the awareness, feet, and active hands. Look at the 2 on 1 @ 1:05... its subtle, but he gets spun around and many players would get tripped up. Much better feet/balance than given credit for:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[Ruzious]

Sorry, but this is really misguided. The only archetypes where you worry about overlap are
1) Lead/ball handling guards that either cant defend well and/or are poor off ball players. I.E. Kyrie, DLo, Wall, Westbrook, etc.
2) Center Only bigs that can only defend 1 position. I.E. Thomas Bryant, KAT, etc.

Other than that, you can mix and match players quite often. And as to your assertion about what we "already have." Deni projects as a plus defender at 2, possibly 3 positions. Combined with his high IQ & activity, he can play with multiple lineups.
Brown cant get off the bench, but is a playmaking 2, Bonga is a low usage role player with defensive versatility, and Rui hasnt shown enough to be counted on as a starter on a playoff team.

Franz, undeniably, is far better and more accomplished than all those guys at the same age. Obviously a lot depends on work ethic moving forward, but he is a better prospect than Hayward or Otto were and were picked 3 & 8.

Only thing is - Franz does not project well defensively, and we're a very bad defensive team. That doesn't mean we don't consider him, but if we do pick him, we would need to make more adjustments in our roster, imo - and I'm doubtful we have a GM who can handle that adequately.

Huh? Franz averages more blocks & steals than Otto or Hayward with a higher DBPM while playing elite competition. So nothing statistically backs up this assertion.
He passes the eye test too. Not a great athlete, but moves his feet ok and has great/active hands. Very active, but not overzealous (I.E. fouling, jumping lanes, etc.).

High IQ players that give effort and have GOOD COACHING (Not Brooks.. ) can always defend to a satisfactory level.

I love the awareness, feet, and active hands. Look at the 2 on 1 @ 1:05... its subtle, but he gets spun around and many players would get tripped up. Much better feet/balance than given credit for:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Have you watched him play and thought - this guy's gonna be a good defender against NBA athletes? Or... have you seen a scouting report that says he'll likely be a good NBA defender? One thing I do have to give him - he's gotten into a LOT better shape than he was last season.

[pcbothwel]

Only thing is - Franz does not project well defensively, and we're a very bad defensive team. That doesn't mean we don't consider him, but if we do pick him, we would need to make more adjustments in our roster, imo - and I'm doubtful we have a GM who can handle that adequately.

Huh? Franz averages more blocks & steals than Otto or Hayward with a higher DBPM while playing elite competition. So nothing statistically backs up this assertion.
He passes the eye test too. Not a great athlete, but moves his feet ok and has great/active hands. Very active, but not overzealous (I.E. fouling, jumping lanes, etc.).

High IQ players that give effort and have GOOD COACHING (Not Brooks.. ) can always defend to a satisfactory level.

I love the awareness, feet, and active hands. Look at the 2 on 1 @ 1:05... its subtle, but he gets spun around and many players would get tripped up. Much better feet/balance than given credit for:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Have you watched him play and thought - this guy's gonna be a good defender against NBA athletes? Or... have you seen a scouting report that says he'll likely be a good NBA defender? One thing I do have to give him - he's gotten into a LOT better shape than he was last season.

Yes... I have. I think he will an average to above average defender due to his high IQ, hands, and anticipation. Otto porter was built like a broomstick and could barely dunk despite his height and length. But he was long, hardworking, great awareness and hands. Elite team defender.

Franz will be a top 6 player in this entire draft. I dont feel the need to convince you or anyone else. I have him as my 4th rated prospect. That may change, but doubtful. I dont get to obsessed with this:

The players I liked this past year: Okongwu, Deni, Kira, Vassell, Haliburton, Achiuwa, Poku, Pritchard, Hayes, Maxey, Tillman
Players I didnt like: Edwards, Melo, Toppin, McDaniels, Terry
Overrated: Wiseman, Patrick Williams, Nesmith, Green, S. Bey, Hampton

Not too hard. What players stand out statistically? Which ones make proper use of their feet & hands? which ones appear to make quick decisions & move the ball (Not always assist)?
Obviously level of competition, role, age, etc. all play a role.

Im not sure how you look at Wagner on film, his stat line, his age, and his improvement (especially physically) and see anything but a 10 year player in the league.

Wagner, Bouknight, and Jared Butler will go later than they should.

[Ruzious]

Huh? Franz averages more blocks & steals than Otto or Hayward with a higher DBPM while playing elite competition. So nothing statistically backs up this assertion.
He passes the eye test too. Not a great athlete, but moves his feet ok and has great/active hands. Very active, but not overzealous (I.E. fouling, jumping lanes, etc.).

High IQ players that give effort and have GOOD COACHING (Not Brooks.. ) can always defend to a satisfactory level.

I love the awareness, feet, and active hands. Look at the 2 on 1 @ 1:05... its subtle, but he gets spun around and many players would get tripped up. Much better feet/balance than given credit for:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Have you watched him play and thought - this guy's gonna be a good defender against NBA athletes? Or... have you seen a scouting report that says he'll likely be a good NBA defender? One thing I do have to give him - he's gotten into a LOT better shape than he was last season.

Yes... I have. I think he will an average to above average defender due to his high IQ, hands, and anticipation. Otto porter was built like a broomstick and could barely dunk despite his height and length. But he was long, hardworking, great awareness and hands. Elite team defender.

Franz will be a top 6 player in this entire draft. I dont feel the need to convince you or anyone else. I have him as my 4th rated prospect. That may change, but doubtful. I dont get to obsessed with this:

The players I liked this past year: Okongwu, Deni, Kira, Vassell, Haliburton, Achiuwa, Poku, Pritchard, Hayes, Maxey, Tillman
Players I didnt like: Edwards, Melo, Toppin, McDaniels, Terry
Overrated: Wiseman, Patrick Williams, Nesmith, Green, S. Bey, Hampton

Not too hard. What players stand out statistically? Which ones make proper use of their feet & hands? which ones appear to make quick decisions & move the ball (Not always assist)?
Obviously level of competition, role, age, etc. all play a role.

Im not sure how you look at Wagner on film, his stat line, his age, and his improvement (especially physically) and see anything but a 10 year player in the league.

Wagner, Bouknight, and Jared Butler will go later than they should.

Just so you understand where I'm coming from, I've praised Wagner several times here - and in the MD thread. It's just his defense that I've questioned, and you're right - he's been putting up good steals and blocks numbers - so maybe I'm wrong to doubt his d. He's a good prospect.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I am watching this guy on ESPN right now.

Sharife Cooper https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharife_Cooper

Watch on YouTube

He reminds me of Chris Paul and CP3 is already working with him on his game.

[No-Man]

Sorry, but this is really misguided. The only archetypes where you worry about overlap are
1) Lead/ball handling guards that either cant defend well and/or are poor off ball players. I.E. Kyrie, DLo, Wall, Westbrook, etc.
2) Center Only bigs that can only defend 1 position. I.E. Thomas Bryant, KAT, etc.

Other than that, you can mix and match players quite often. And as to your assertion about what we "already have." Deni projects as a plus defender at 2, possibly 3 positions. Combined with his high IQ & activity, he can play with multiple lineups.
Brown cant get off the bench, but is a playmaking 2, Bonga is a low usage role player with defensive versatility, and Rui hasnt shown enough to be counted on as a starter on a playoff team.

Franz, undeniably, is far better and more accomplished than all those guys at the same age. Obviously a lot depends on work ethic moving forward, but he is a better prospect than Hayward or Otto were and were picked 3 & 8.

Only thing is - Franz does not project well defensively, and we're a very bad defensive team. That doesn't mean we don't consider him, but if we do pick him, we would need to make more adjustments in our roster, imo - and I'm doubtful we have a GM who can handle that adequately.

Franz may have been the best defender in the NCAA this season, even though he gets beaten routinely, he is not a 1on1 guy or a stopper but he is going to be a plus on D easily

The Wizards have no players in their roster at all that should condition their selection, changes are an understatement lol

[nate33]

I am watching this guy on ESPN right now.

Sharife Cooper https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharife_Cooper



https://youtu.be/RrNBcGTQL6k

He reminds me of Chris Paul and CP is already working with him on his game.


Sent from my SM-T500 using RealGM mobile app

Interesting. He reminds me a bit of college era Isaiah Thomas (the recent one, not the one from the 80's). His floor game is great. He sees everything. He is pretty small in stature though. He's listed at 6-1 and that might be generous. You can get away with being short today if you have a burly frame like Chris Paul, Kyle Lowry or Van Vleet, but I don't know if Cooper will fill out like that.

The biggest issue is his jumper. If you are short, you are dead in the water unless you have a reliable 3-point shot. Cooper is going to have to work on that. A lot.

[Ruzious]

I am watching this guy on ESPN right now.

Sharife Cooper https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharife_Cooper



https://youtu.be/RrNBcGTQL6k

He reminds me of Chris Paul and CP is already working with him on his game.


Sent from my SM-T500 using RealGM mobile app

Great game last night - he's an exciting player. Averaging 11 FTAs per game (13.8 per 40 minutes!) - pretty amazing especially for a freshman. Teams can't stop him from penetrating. Gotta back off him and dare him to shoot 3's. Seems like he's gradually lowering the to's - a great sign - but just 6 games.

[NatP4]

I am watching this guy on ESPN right now.

Sharife Cooper https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharife_Cooper



https://youtu.be/RrNBcGTQL6k

He reminds me of Chris Paul and CP is already working with him on his game.


Sent from my SM-T500 using RealGM mobile app

Interesting. He reminds me a bit of college era Isaiah Thomas (the recent one, not the one from the 80's). His floor game is great. He sees everything. He is pretty small in stature though. He's listed at 6-1 and that might be generous. You can get away with being short today if you have a burly frame like Chris Paul, Kyle Lowry or Van Vleet, but I don't know if Cooper will fill out like that.

The biggest issue is his jumper. If you are short, you are dead in the water unless you have a reliable 3-point shot. Cooper is going to have to work on that. A lot.

He’s the X factor of this draft.

Cooper was a lights out shooter in high school. I actually got to see him play in person on a few occasions. I think his 3pt shot will start to fall which will make him a very efficient player in combination with his 50% on 2s.

The real question is can he defend and limit the turnovers, and does he have the athletic ability to be a slasher and get to the rim against NBA athletes.

Chris Paul is special because he is elite defensively and has the greatest basketball IQ of any player ever. Cooper can be a liability on D sometimes

Kyrie Irving is special because he is the most explosive below the rim athlete of all time and can get by defenders with ease and finish at the rim. Cooper can struggle at the rim at times against size.

Cooper definitely has the talent to sneak into the top 5.

[NatP4]

I maintain that after Suggs/Mobley/Cunningham are off the board, anyone could go anywhere. If we end up at 4-8ish, I would love to make a deal with the Knicks for both of their picks in the 10-15 range.

You could end up with a couple of Sharife Cooper, Jared Butler, Daishen Nix, Kai Jones, Franz Wagner, Jaden Springer, Scottie Barnes. I think all of those guys are better prospects than Kuminga/Williams/Green/Johnson.

[nate33]

Cooper definitely has the talent to sneak into the top 5.

I don't think so.

I don't think any team will take a 6-0 PG with a top 5 pick. The history of short point guards in the modern, switchable era is not kind. Even if they pan out to be everything you want on offense, they're just too much of a liability on defense.

You might gamble on a guy like that in the 8-10 range, but not with a top 5 pick in a strong draft.

[Ruzious]

I maintain that after Suggs/Mobley/Cunningham are off the board, anyone could go anywhere. If we end up at 4-8ish, I would love to make a deal with the Knicks for both of their picks in the 10-15 range.

You could end up with a couple of Sharife Cooper, Jared Butler, Daishen Nix, Kai Jones, Franz Wagner, Jaden Springer, Scottie Barnes. I think all of those guys are better prospects than Kuminga/Williams/Green/Johnson.

Kuminga might be the most physically gifted player of the bunch. My guess is NBA GM's are gonna make him a top 5 pick because of his upside - in the Jaylen Brown mold.

[NatP4]

I maintain that after Suggs/Mobley/Cunningham are off the board, anyone could go anywhere. If we end up at 4-8ish, I would love to make a deal with the Knicks for both of their picks in the 10-15 range.

You could end up with a couple of Sharife Cooper, Jared Butler, Daishen Nix, Kai Jones, Franz Wagner, Jaden Springer, Scottie Barnes. I think all of those guys are better prospects than Kuminga/Williams/Green/Johnson.

Kuminga might be the most physically gifted player of the bunch. My guess is NBA GM's are gonna make him a top 5 pick because of his upside - in the Jaylen Brown mold.

Yeah, Kuminga, Jalen Green, and Jalen Johnson will go top 8 because of the physical tools, and we will see how the perform once those G league games begin, but right now, I think those are the picks we want to avoid.

My cheat sheet would say: if top 3 pick Mobley, Suggs, Cunningham(in that order)

If not top 3: trade down for as many picks in the 4-20 range as you can acquire.

[NatP4]

Cooper definitely has the talent to sneak into the top 5.

I don't think so.

I don't think any team will take a 6-0 PG with a top 5 pick. The history of short point guards in the modern, switchable era is not kind. Even if they pan out to be everything you want on offense, they're just too much of a liability on defense.

You might gamble on a guy like that in the 8-10 range, but not with a top 5 pick in a strong draft.

On the other hand, we are talking about a freshman that is averaging an absurd 28 points per 40 with 12 FTA. Also, like Ruz point out, his turnovers are decreasing with each game that goes by after a couple rough first few games. 19 assists and 6 turnovers in his last 2 games. He’s also 4/11 from 3pt range in his last 3 games. I said it a week or so ago, I think he’s going to fly up the mock drafts now.

He’s starting to really heat up.

[nate33]

I maintain that after Suggs/Mobley/Cunningham are off the board, anyone could go anywhere. If we end up at 4-8ish, I would love to make a deal with the Knicks for both of their picks in the 10-15 range.

You could end up with a couple of Sharife Cooper, Jared Butler, Daishen Nix, Kai Jones, Franz Wagner, Jaden Springer, Scottie Barnes. I think all of those guys are better prospects than Kuminga/Williams/Green/Johnson.

Kuminga might be the most physically gifted player of the bunch. My guess is NBA GM's are gonna make him a top 5 pick because of his upside - in the Jaylen Brown mold.

Yeah, Kuminga, Jalen Green, and Jalen Johnson will go top 8 because of the physical tools, and we will see how the perform once those G league games begin, but right now, I think those are the picks we want to avoid.

My cheat sheet would say: if top 3 pick Mobley, Suggs, Cunningham(in that order)

If not top 3: trade down for as many picks in the 4-20 range as you can acquire.

Every time I look at this draft, I think about a potential Golden State trade where we acquire the Minnesota pick and the Golden State pick while tanking. Imagine having the #2 pick, the #4 pick and the #18 pick in this draft! And Wiseman too.

[NatP4]

Kuminga might be the most physically gifted player of the bunch. My guess is NBA GM's are gonna make him a top 5 pick because of his upside - in the Jaylen Brown mold.

Yeah, Kuminga, Jalen Green, and Jalen Johnson will go top 8 because of the physical tools, and we will see how the perform once those G league games begin, but right now, I think those are the picks we want to avoid.

My cheat sheet would say: if top 3 pick Mobley, Suggs, Cunningham(in that order)

If not top 3: trade down for as many picks in the 4-20 range as you can acquire.

Every time I look at this draft, I think about a potential Golden State trade where we acquire the Minnesota pick and the Golden State pick while tanking. Imagine having the #2 pick, the #4 pick and the #18 pick in this draft! And Wiseman too.

But the Minny pick most likely turns into a 2022 pick right? I mean I agree, that would be a home run, but Minnesota is so terrible, I can’t see them finishing outside the bottom 3, meaning they add a can’t miss prospect and the 2022 pick ends up being a 5-10 pick instead of a top 3.

If I can dream for a minute, imagine turning that #4 into the NY picks at 10&12ish and picking at 3, 10, 12, 18. According to tankathon right now:

3: Jalen Suggs

10: Franz Wagner

12: Jared Butler

18: Sharife Cooper

Woah

[nate33]

But the Minny pick most likely turns into a 2022 pick right? I mean I agree, that would be a home run, but Minnesota is so terrible, I can’t see them finishing outside the bottom 3, meaning they add a can’t miss prospect and the 2022 pick ends up being a 5-10 pick instead of a top 3.

The new lottery odds make a top 3 pick far from a guarantee. If you finish last, 2nd-to-last or 3rd-to-last in the standings, you have just a 40% chance at a top 3 pick.

[Ruzious]

But the Minny pick most likely turns into a 2022 pick right? I mean I agree, that would be a home run, but Minnesota is so terrible, I can’t see them finishing outside the bottom 3, meaning they add a can’t miss prospect and the 2022 pick ends up being a 5-10 pick instead of a top 3.

The new lottery odds make a top 3 pick far from a guarantee. If you finish last, 2nd-to-last or 3rd-to-last in the standings, you have just a 40% chance at a top 3 pick.

Gotcha, so there's a 60% chance of that being the 4th, 5th, or 6th pick. And we have to get lucky with our pick. There's a reasonable chance to get a top 3 with ours - even if it isn't more likely than not. And it's a fun exercise to choose what to do with picks 2, 4, and 18. I gotta get Mobley at 2. I'm with NatP$ on trading down with the 4th pick. A couple of potential Beal replacements I like are Moses Moody and Chris Duarte. Duarte's really putting up some great numbers for Oregon, but he is an old 23 year old soph. If we can get Mobley, Butler, Duarte, and Scottie Lewis as a very athletic wing defender, I'd be happy. I see Duarte's regarded as a 2nd rounder, but that's gonna change.

[nate33]

But the Minny pick most likely turns into a 2022 pick right? I mean I agree, that would be a home run, but Minnesota is so terrible, I can’t see them finishing outside the bottom 3, meaning they add a can’t miss prospect and the 2022 pick ends up being a 5-10 pick instead of a top 3.

The new lottery odds make a top 3 pick far from a guarantee. If you finish last, 2nd-to-last or 3rd-to-last in the standings, you have just a 40% chance at a top 3 pick.

Gotcha, so there's a 60% chance of that being the 4th, 5th, or 6th pick. And we have to get lucky with our pick. There's a reasonable chance to get a top 3 with ours - even if it isn't more likely than not. And it's a fun exercise to choose what to do with picks 2, 4, and 18. I gotta get Mobley at 2. I'm with NatP$ on trading down with the 4th pick. A couple of potential Beal replacements I like are Moses Moody and Chris Duarte. Duarte's really putting up some great numbers for Oregon, but he is an old 23 year old soph. If we can get Mobley, Butler, Duarte, and Scottie Lewis as a very athletic wing defender, I'd be happy. I see Duarte's regarded as a 2nd rounder, but that's gonna change.

I wonder if #4 + #18 is enough to trade up to #3 and grab Suggs?

It depends on who is picking #3 and if they're looking for a 6-4 combo guard. Cleveland or Charlotte, for example, might be inclined to trade down.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Cooper definitely has the talent to sneak into the top 5.

I don't think so.

I don't think any team will take a 6-0 PG with a top 5 pick. The history of short point guards in the modern, switchable era is not kind. Even if they pan out to be everything you want on offense, they're just too much of a liability on defense.

You might gamble on a guy like that in the 8-10 range, but not with a top 5 pick in a strong draft.

Sharife Cooper’s numbers compare pretty favorably to Trae Young’s at Oklahoma and are better than those of Collin Sexton at Alabama, but it’s early.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/trae-young-1.html

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/collin-sexton-1.html

EDITED to add:

Young— 1st round 5th pick
Sexton—1st round 8th pick
Cooper is current shooting only 5/27 (.185) 3PT shots.

His lottery draft placement will likely come down to his 3PT consistency.



https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/sharife-cooper-1.html