2021 Draft Thread - Part II

[NatP4]

Murphy looks like a safe bet to be a good NBA player. I would be looking to trade with houston for 23&24 and possibly grab one of Duarte/Butler and Murphy.

[dckingsfan]

Murphy looks like a safe bet to be a good NBA player. I would be looking to trade with houston for 23&24 and possibly grab one of Duarte/Butler and Murphy.

I would do that - clearly PIF as well. Why would Houston do that? I am trying to wrap my head around what we could do to make that happen.

[nate33]

I did a deep dive on Garuba and I came away underwhelmed. Yeah, he has great feet and will be a dynamite defender, but he really doesn't look like he has the offensive skill to be a 4. And at the 5, he just isn't big enough to handle NBA centers. He looks like another Precious Achiuwa to me. He is a project - a guy who will finally become useful just as he is up for a new expensive contract.

I also don't see the fit. I'd much rather get one of the 3&D wings like Wagner, Moody or Murphy, or go for a combo guard scorer like Springer or Butler. The Wizards are honestly in more need of offense than defense. The Wizards were the 7th best defense in the league over the final 50 games of the regular season. And that should only improve as Gafford and Hachimura get incrementally better.

[Frichuela]

I did a deep dive on Garuba and I came away underwhelmed. Yeah, he has great feet and will be a dynamite defender, but he really doesn't look like he has the offensive skill to be a 4. And at the 5, he just isn't big enough to handle NBA centers. He looks like another Precious Achiuwa to me. He is a project - a guy who will finally become useful just as he is up for a new expensive contract.

I also don't see the fit. I'd much rather get one of the 3&D wings like Wagner, Moody or Murphy, or go for a combo guard scorer like Springer or Butler. The Wizards are honestly in more need of offense than defense. The Wizards were the 7th best defense in the league over the final 50 games of the regular season. And that should only improve as Gafford and Hachimura get incrementally better.

As much as I like Garuba, I agree. Our need for 3 pt shooting is dire.

I also wholeheartedly agree that trading down is the best option in this loaded draft. We'll see how Tommy navigates things draft day.

[pcbothwel]

I did a deep dive on Garuba and I came away underwhelmed. Yeah, he has great feet and will be a dynamite defender, but he really doesn't look like he has the offensive skill to be a 4. And at the 5, he just isn't big enough to handle NBA centers. He looks like another Precious Achiuwa to me. He is a project - a guy who will finally become useful just as he is up for a new expensive contract.

I also don't see the fit. I'd much rather get one of the 3&D wings like Wagner, Moody or Murphy, or go for a combo guard scorer like Springer or Butler. The Wizards are honestly in more need of offense than defense. The Wizards were the 7th best defense in the league over the final 50 games of the regular season. And that should only improve as Gafford and Hachimura get incrementally better.

I could not disagree more. Imagine giving up on the next Draymond because we are "in more need of offense than defense."
Garuba is the best all around defender in the class with the highest defensive upside. Let me say that again. Garuba is the player with most defensive versatility, best feet, and best feel/IQ.

If you did a deep dive you see that Achuiwa was 1.5 years older and averaging almost half the assist on 50% more Turnovers...all while playing Alcorn State, Bradley, Jackson State, New Orleans, etc... while Garuba was playing for Real Madrid.

Again, Garuba shows IQ/awareness on both ends of the court, and thats where he will set himself apart.

[nate33]

I did a deep dive on Garuba and I came away underwhelmed. Yeah, he has great feet and will be a dynamite defender, but he really doesn't look like he has the offensive skill to be a 4. And at the 5, he just isn't big enough to handle NBA centers. He looks like another Precious Achiuwa to me. He is a project - a guy who will finally become useful just as he is up for a new expensive contract.

I also don't see the fit. I'd much rather get one of the 3&D wings like Wagner, Moody or Murphy, or go for a combo guard scorer like Springer or Butler. The Wizards are honestly in more need of offense than defense. The Wizards were the 7th best defense in the league over the final 50 games of the regular season. And that should only improve as Gafford and Hachimura get incrementally better.

I could not disagree more. Imagine giving up on the next Draymond because we are "in more need of offense than defense."
Garuba is the best all around defender in the class with the highest defensive upside. Let me say that again. Garuba is the player with most defensive versatility, best feet, and best feel/IQ.

If you did a deep dive you see that Achuiwa was 1.5 years older and averaging almost half the assist on 50% more Turnovers...all while playing Alcorn State, Bradley, Jackson State, New Orleans, etc... while Garuba was playing for Real Madrid.

Again, Garuba shows IQ/awareness on both ends of the court, and thats where he will set himself apart.

Being great at defense is useless if you're not playing because your offense is such a liability.

Draymond is an extremely rare example. And it really only works with him because of his synergy with Curry who is uniquely suited to use Draymond's screening. Draymond would be a noticeable drag on the offense of any other team.

[DCZards]

Drafting anything other than a scorer/shooter is a nonstarter for me. I value Garuba's D...but if the plan is to help and/or build around Beal and Russ at some point you have to address the Zards biggest weakness...which is perimeter and 3pt shooting.

I still like Moody or Butler with that 15th pick. I believe both will be above average shooters as well as very good defenders. (I plan to take a look at Springer and Murphy as well.)

I'd like to see the Zards buy one or two second round picks and target Alabama's Herb Jones, who may be the best perimeter defender in the draft and someone who has continued to improve his long ball shooting. Jones reminds me of Robert Covington.

I'm all for trading down from 15 for two later first round picks, but most of the trade proposals I've seen here thus far don't seem very realistic or appealing from the standpoint of our trade partners.

[payitforward]

Never have I seen a draft with so many prospects projected between 20 and 40 who simply look like they can't miss. Trey Murphy is one of them for sure.

...Along those lines, here's another thought about trading down: although the #15 simply will not get us Houston's #23 & 24 picks straight up, what if we sweeten the deal -- either by removing, or at least by lightening, the protections on the '23 R1 pick Houston got from us in the Westbrook trade?

What do you think? Something you'd do?

I would absolutely trade down. There are three teams you could do this with.
Houston 2, 23, 24
New York 19, 21
Oklahoma 6, 16, 18

I think Oklahoma is out - too close. I worry that they will want to do the same with their 16th pick - but three picks is a lot to develop in a year.

I think the problem is that NY is probably thinking the same way?

Houston on the other hand wants to trade up - but for the #1 pick. They might do 15 for 23 & 24 if 2 & 15 gets the #1 - but I think this is doubtful.The other way they would do a trade is for us to remove the protections on our 2023 1st round pick? Do you take that risk? Or Wood, 23, 24 for Bryant & Hutchison 15 and removing protections on our 2023 pick. Pretty steep.

So, although I would like to see it get done - I don't see it getting done.

Edit: One more thing - I sure hope we purchase at least 1 second round pick.

Well... you more or less repeated my proposal to trade with Houston. They will never do 15 for 23 & 24. If 15 & 2 would get them 1, so would 23, 24 & 2, so why trade?

But, as I say... remove/lighten the protections on our #23 r1 & maybe there's a deal there.

[dckingsfan]

I did a deep dive on Garuba and I came away underwhelmed. Yeah, he has great feet and will be a dynamite defender, but he really doesn't look like he has the offensive skill to be a 4. And at the 5, he just isn't big enough to handle NBA centers. He looks like another Precious Achiuwa to me. He is a project - a guy who will finally become useful just as he is up for a new expensive contract.

I also don't see the fit. I'd much rather get one of the 3&D wings like Wagner, Moody or Murphy, or go for a combo guard scorer like Springer or Butler. The Wizards are honestly in more need of offense than defense. The Wizards were the 7th best defense in the league over the final 50 games of the regular season. And that should only improve as Gafford and Hachimura get incrementally better.

I could not disagree more. Imagine giving up on the next Draymond because we are "in more need of offense than defense."
Garuba is the best all around defender in the class with the highest defensive upside. Let me say that again. Garuba is the player with most defensive versatility, best feet, and best feel/IQ.

If you did a deep dive you see that Achuiwa was 1.5 years older and averaging almost half the assist on 50% more Turnovers...all while playing Alcorn State, Bradley, Jackson State, New Orleans, etc... while Garuba was playing for Real Madrid.

Again, Garuba shows IQ/awareness on both ends of the court, and thats where he will set himself apart.

Being great at defense is useless if you're not playing because your offense is such a liability.

Draymond is an extremely rare example. And it really only works with him because of his synergy with Curry who is uniquely suited to use Draymond's screening. Draymond would be a noticeable drag on the offense of any other team.

I disagree on Garuba being a drag on offense - long-term. He has a good shooting stroke (my opinion is that this part of his game is going to come around), can get to the rim because of his handles and is a good distributor.

But as Frichuela says, our need for 3 point shooting is dire. I am moved by "fit" (PIF is turning red in the background). Basically, we are going to go all in on the Westbrook/Beal era for the next two years.

[dckingsfan]

Never have I seen a draft with so many prospects projected between 20 and 40 who simply look like they can't miss. Trey Murphy is one of them for sure.

...Along those lines, here's another thought about trading down: although the #15 simply will not get us Houston's #23 & 24 picks straight up, what if we sweeten the deal -- either by removing, or at least by lightening, the protections on the '23 R1 pick Houston got from us in the Westbrook trade?

What do you think? Something you'd do?

I would absolutely trade down. There are three teams you could do this with.
Houston 2, 23, 24
New York 19, 21
Oklahoma 6, 16, 18

I think Oklahoma is out - too close. I worry that they will want to do the same with their 16th pick - but three picks is a lot to develop in a year.

I think the problem is that NY is probably thinking the same way?

Houston on the other hand wants to trade up - but for the #1 pick. They might do 15 for 23 & 24 if 2 & 15 gets the #1 - but I think this is doubtful.The other way they would do a trade is for us to remove the protections on our 2023 1st round pick? Do you take that risk? Or Wood, 23, 24 for Bryant & Hutchison 15 and removing protections on our 2023 pick. Pretty steep.

So, although I would like to see it get done - I don't see it getting done.

Edit: One more thing - I sure hope we purchase at least 1 second round pick.

Well... you more or less repeated my proposal to trade with Houston. They will never do 15 for 23 & 24. If 15 & 2 would get them 1, so would 23, 24 & 2, so why trade?

But, as I say... remove/lighten the protections on our #23 r1 & maybe there's a deal there.

Violent agreement on all of that - I was just pointing out how hard it is going to be for Tommy to trade down - I think it is a very low probability event.

[gambitx777]

I think it depends on draft night if someone who was supposedly top 7-12 starts falling and is there at 15 then yeah someone absolutely could call and be like yo trade back and we might. It just depends on what's happening if not on falls and no one sees the value in it we gonna have to make the best of it.

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[dckingsfan]

I think it depends on draft night if someone who was supposedly top 7-12 starts falling and is there at 15 then yeah someone absolutely could call and be like yo trade back and we might. It just depends on what's happening if not on falls and no one sees the value in it we gonna have to make the best of it.

But specifically, it has to be either NY or Houston that has such an epiphany. That reduces the odds considerably.

[wall_glizzy]

I do think that if the two Rockets picks get moved (I'm not exactly sure why a team in their position would be looking to trade up, but if they love someone in the mid-teens or want to consolidate their incoming rookie class), they might fetch less than some here expect. How many teams ahead of us do we expect to be in the market to trade down? I can't see it for any of the top 6, and then Golden State would be trading out of the draft entirely (i.e. for veteran help), not back in the first round. I'm not sure that I see it for any of the teams in the lottery after that. But even if there is some interest, both OKC (picks 16 and 18) and the Knicks (picks 19 and 21) have the ability to out-bid the Rockets. If the draft order shakes out such that there's a lot of interest in trading up into the 10-15 range, I don't think a trade with Houston is out of the realm of possibility (though I do agree that we'd tack something on, maybe we could get away with just a 2nd rounder?).

[pcbothwel]

I did a deep dive on Garuba and I came away underwhelmed. Yeah, he has great feet and will be a dynamite defender, but he really doesn't look like he has the offensive skill to be a 4. And at the 5, he just isn't big enough to handle NBA centers. He looks like another Precious Achiuwa to me. He is a project - a guy who will finally become useful just as he is up for a new expensive contract.

I also don't see the fit. I'd much rather get one of the 3&D wings like Wagner, Moody or Murphy, or go for a combo guard scorer like Springer or Butler. The Wizards are honestly in more need of offense than defense. The Wizards were the 7th best defense in the league over the final 50 games of the regular season. And that should only improve as Gafford and Hachimura get incrementally better.

I could not disagree more. Imagine giving up on the next Draymond because we are "in more need of offense than defense."
Garuba is the best all around defender in the class with the highest defensive upside. Let me say that again. Garuba is the player with most defensive versatility, best feet, and best feel/IQ.

If you did a deep dive you see that Achuiwa was 1.5 years older and averaging almost half the assist on 50% more Turnovers...all while playing Alcorn State, Bradley, Jackson State, New Orleans, etc... while Garuba was playing for Real Madrid.

Again, Garuba shows IQ/awareness on both ends of the court, and thats where he will set himself apart.

Being great at defense is useless if you're not playing because your offense is such a liability.

Draymond is an extremely rare example. And it really only works with him because of his synergy with Curry who is uniquely suited to use Draymond's screening. Draymond would be a noticeable drag on the offense of any other team.

You cant be serious. Draymond ONLY works because of Curry?!?
Or, and hear me out, he works because basketball is a game of possessions and Draymond makes opposing teams utilize their possessions with less efficacy.
Also, are you going to ignore the fact that Draymond averaged 10 ast per 36 last season with an almost 3:1 AST:TOV ratio. Your analysis about Draymond and his offense seems to completely ignore that.

[Shoe]

Never have I seen a draft with so many prospects projected between 20 and 40 who simply look like they can't miss. Trey Murphy is one of them for sure.

...Along those lines, here's another thought about trading down: although the #15 simply will not get us Houston's #23 & 24 picks straight up, what if we sweeten the deal -- either by removing, or at least by lightening, the protections on the '23 R1 pick Houston got from us in the Westbrook trade?

What do you think? Something you'd do?

I would absolutely trade down. There are three teams you could do this with.
Houston 2, 23, 24
New York 19, 21
Oklahoma 6, 16, 18

I think Oklahoma is out - too close. I worry that they will want to do the same with their 16th pick - but three picks is a lot to develop in a year.

I think the problem is that NY is probably thinking the same way?

Houston on the other hand wants to trade up - but for the #1 pick. They might do 15 for 23 & 24 if 2 & 15 gets the #1 - but I think this is doubtful.The other way they would do a trade is for us to remove the protections on our 2023 1st round pick? Do you take that risk? Or Wood, 23, 24 for Bryant & Hutchison 15 and removing protections on our 2023 pick. Pretty steep.

So, although I would like to see it get done - I don't see it getting done.

Edit: One more thing - I sure hope we purchase at least 1 second round pick.

Well... you more or less repeated my proposal to trade with Houston. They will never do 15 for 23 & 24. If 15 & 2 would get them 1, so would 23, 24 & 2, so why trade?

But, as I say... remove/lighten the protections on our #23 r1 & maybe there's a deal there.

Because teams value higher picks. History has shown your valuation of 23 + 24 is way higher than NBA GMs. Probably because your valuation of an open roster spot is way lower than NBA GMs.

[gambitx777]

I think it depends on draft night if someone who was supposedly top 7-12 starts falling and is there at 15 then yeah someone absolutely could call and be like yo trade back and we might. It just depends on what's happening if not on falls and no one sees the value in it we gonna have to make the best of it.

But specifically, it has to be either NY or Houston that has such an epiphany. That reduces the odds considerably.

Absolutely ! It does. Unless we trade back for a future pick. Something from a team with an extra first down the road behind us.

Like Atalanta if they offer you 20 and 48 and that OKC 22 heavily protected first they own that turns into two future seconds after next year. For 15 you think about it.

If the nets offer you 27, 44,49 and 59 for 15 you think about it. Especially if you think tre Mann, springer or Butler gonna be there at 27. Or you're fancy the Thor or bj Boston mid second round as some under the radar guys.

It be pricy but if Memphis sees us taking their guy at 15, they could offer us 17, 51 and that Utah protected 22 for 15 and cash.

There are some other options there. Just not a lot of 2 firsts for one first right now options.

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[prime1time]

I did a deep dive on Garuba and I came away underwhelmed. Yeah, he has great feet and will be a dynamite defender, but he really doesn't look like he has the offensive skill to be a 4. And at the 5, he just isn't big enough to handle NBA centers. He looks like another Precious Achiuwa to me. He is a project - a guy who will finally become useful just as he is up for a new expensive contract.

I also don't see the fit. I'd much rather get one of the 3&D wings like Wagner, Moody or Murphy, or go for a combo guard scorer like Springer or Butler. The Wizards are honestly in more need of offense than defense. The Wizards were the 7th best defense in the league over the final 50 games of the regular season. And that should only improve as Gafford and Hachimura get incrementally better.

The comparison to Achiuwa makes no sense. Combining both leagues Garuba shot 111 3's last season. Achiwua didn't attempt 1 3 last year.

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More so, referencing our defense rating over 50 games to state that we are good defensive team while interesting doesn't mean much. If we play a that has a great offensive wing who's going to guard them? Did you not watch the playoffs? Let me remind you.

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We need a player who can guard elite offensive scorers and at least make them work. Rui is simply not that guy. But how good can our defense be if instead of Rui guarding the best wing, we have Garuba guard them. I already made a previous post about Garuba so I'm not going to repeat myself here, but needless to say I disagree with your post. Imo, your sentiments are what happens when we take our American perspective overseas. Garuba played a role as an 18/19-year-old in the second-best league in the world. But don't confuse his limited role with his skill level.

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At the U18 he won MVP 2 years ago over Deni. He has way more skill than he was able to show. Look at that hard one dribble to a reverse pivot to a half spin right-hand hookshot. He was doing that at 16. Achiwua can't do that now and might never be able to do it and make it look so smooth. Imo it's silly to label Garuba as a project. If all he does is improve his 3-point shooting, he's already a starter on a championship team. If he develops more in addition to that, he has the potential to be a very good player. I completely disagree with your comments on fit. I think what we need is a defensive stopper. We already have Beal, Westbrook, Rui, Avdija, Bertans and Bryant. Gafford brings energy but he has no ability to shoot 3's.

I personally hope we draft Garuba. I know fans will not be happy, but once he starts to play and you can see his impact you'll realize that he's precisely what this team needs.

[prime1time]

I did a deep dive on Garuba and I came away underwhelmed. Yeah, he has great feet and will be a dynamite defender, but he really doesn't look like he has the offensive skill to be a 4. And at the 5, he just isn't big enough to handle NBA centers. He looks like another Precious Achiuwa to me. He is a project - a guy who will finally become useful just as he is up for a new expensive contract.

I also don't see the fit. I'd much rather get one of the 3&D wings like Wagner, Moody or Murphy, or go for a combo guard scorer like Springer or Butler. The Wizards are honestly in more need of offense than defense. The Wizards were the 7th best defense in the league over the final 50 games of the regular season. And that should only improve as Gafford and Hachimura get incrementally better.

I could not disagree more. Imagine giving up on the next Draymond because we are "in more need of offense than defense."
Garuba is the best all around defender in the class with the highest defensive upside. Let me say that again. Garuba is the player with most defensive versatility, best feet, and best feel/IQ.

If you did a deep dive you see that Achuiwa was 1.5 years older and averaging almost half the assist on 50% more Turnovers...all while playing Alcorn State, Bradley, Jackson State, New Orleans, etc... while Garuba was playing for Real Madrid.

Again, Garuba shows IQ/awareness on both ends of the court, and thats where he will set himself apart.

Being great at defense is useless if you're not playing because your offense is such a liability.

Draymond is an extremely rare example. And it really only works with him because of his synergy with Curry who is uniquely suited to use Draymond's screening. Draymond would be a noticeable drag on the offense of any other team.

You're pushing a false narrative. Garuba's offense isn't anywhere near as bad as you are making him out to be. At 18/19 he literally played 3 and D the whole year shooting 111 3's at 31.5%. Thybulle just shot 30% from 3 for the year and he played major minutes. At only 19 years old (with many games played as an 18-year-old), it's pretty reasonable to assume that Garuba will improve not just his shooting but his overall offensive game.

[nate33]

I could not disagree more. Imagine giving up on the next Draymond because we are "in more need of offense than defense."
Garuba is the best all around defender in the class with the highest defensive upside. Let me say that again. Garuba is the player with most defensive versatility, best feet, and best feel/IQ.

If you did a deep dive you see that Achuiwa was 1.5 years older and averaging almost half the assist on 50% more Turnovers...all while playing Alcorn State, Bradley, Jackson State, New Orleans, etc... while Garuba was playing for Real Madrid.

Again, Garuba shows IQ/awareness on both ends of the court, and thats where he will set himself apart.

Being great at defense is useless if you're not playing because your offense is such a liability.

Draymond is an extremely rare example. And it really only works with him because of his synergy with Curry who is uniquely suited to use Draymond's screening. Draymond would be a noticeable drag on the offense of any other team.

You cant be serious. Draymond ONLY works because of Curry?!?
Or, and hear me out, he works because basketball is a game of possessions and Draymond makes opposing teams utilize their possessions with less efficacy.
Also, are you going to ignore the fact that Draymond averaged 10 ast per 36 last season with an almost 3:1 AST:TOV ratio. Your analysis about Draymond and his offense seems to completely ignore that.

Draymond had an ORtg of 110 this year. Last year, without Curry, it was all the way down to 100, which is unbelievably awful in the modern NBA. His only redeeming quality on offense last season was his passing. And his passing is also a freak outlier that is not easily duplicated by other bigs. I think it's foolish to expect Garuba to be capable of averaging 10 assists per 100 possessions.

[nate33]

[More so, referencing our defense rating over 50 games to state that we are good defensive team while interesting doesn't mean much. If we play a that has a great offensive wing who's going to guard them? Did you not watch the playoffs?

Having an elite wing-stopper doesn't really solve your problems because teams just run a screen and force a switch. You aren't as good as your best wing defender, you are as good as your worst wing defender. It's more important to have good help defenders.

We need a player who can guard elite offensive scorers and at least make them work. Rui is simply not that guy.

I think Rui is that guy. He'll be a legit stopper in this league. He may not be a top 10 perimeter defender at any point in his career, but he will be a guy that we are comfortable putting on opponent's best wing.

At the U18 he won MVP 2 years ago over Deni. He has way more skill than he was able to show. Look at that hard one dribble to a reverse pivot to a half spin right-hand hookshot. He was doing that at 16. Achiwua can't do that now and might never be able to do it and make it look so smooth. Imo it's silly to label Garuba as a project. If all he does is improve his 3-point shooting, he's already a starter on a championship team. If he develops more in addition to that, he has the potential to be a very good player. I completely disagree with your comments on fit. I think what we need is a defensive stopper. We already have Beal, Westbrook, Rui, Avdija, Bertans and Bryant. Gafford brings energy but he has no ability to shoot 3's.

You may be able to sway me by arguing that he is better offensively than I'm giving him credit for. If that's true, then I will definitely be more open-minded. But I disagree totally with the idea that a great defender who is a zero on offense can help us. Offensively, he has to be able to do much more than, say, Bonga. So far, I haven't seen it.