Bean Burrito / Nick Young Appreciation Thread.

[fishercob]

Bulls fans on the trade board are offering Bogans and a lotto-protected first for Nick. If that were really on the table, Ernie should take it and run.

[mhd]

Please, non-lotto picks are at best 8-10th men and Nick Young has shown he can be starting SG/6th man the way he's playing. He'll always play in the NBA b/c he's an excellent 3 point shooter. What happens when that pick is crap like James Johnson or Earl Clark?

I'd much rather have Nick Young than a lotto protected first. And the way the Bulls are plaing, that pick will be in the 20s, something the Wiz can simply buy on draft night if they wanted to.

[fishercob]

Come on, mhd. Do I need to list the non-lotto picks that have been all-stars, legit starters, and valuable rotation guys? Sure the odds are against that, but never up never in. I'd rather have a rookie with his entire rookie contract in front of him that Nick on an extension if it's for any more than $2.5-$3M/yr.

The only thing Nick has "shown" is that he can be a decent scorer on a terrible team. I'd be willing to bet anything that he ends the season with a sub-15 PER.

[tontoz]

Young is a career 38% shooter from 3 who can create his own shot off the dribble and is a reasonable defender at least so far this year. His allergy to the paint is a major hole in his game but he is a valuable guy to have coming off the bench.

Travis Outlaw would be a good comparison and he signed for $7 million per year. JR Smith is in the last year of his deal and is making $7 million. I have no idea what the new CBA would look like but i would have no problem paying him $5 million per year.

[nate33]

I would table any talk of trading Young until the Trade Deadline. I'm not convinced that Young has turned the corner and become a reliable offensive player, but I'm not convinced that he hasn't either. Given our desperate lack of offensive talent, I'd be loathe to trade away a guy who might conceivably be our SG of the future for a late 1st round pick.

I hope things will be a bit clearer in two months. If Young continues to play this well, I'd keep him. If not, then I'd be open to trading him.

[Kanyewest]

Bulls fans on the trade board are offering Bogans and a lotto-protected first for Nick. If that were really on the table, Ernie should take it and run.

There isn't much valued added in this trade. Young is a mid first round pick himself and if you were to go back and redo the draft- EG did a good job drafting with his mid-first round pick IMO.

Of course there is the possibility that Young could walk this offseason, but the Wizards could always use the money that they save to purchase a late first round pick, which is what the Bulls pick would result in, especially if the Wizards gave them Young.

[hands11]

Dat, i think Nick is PERFECT coming off the bench being used solely as a gunner (for now). He doesn't really strike me as a player that's effective playing in a structure where he has to contribute in the flow of the offense.You can't really systemize him, he's more of a baller than an NBA player. He's at his best when he comes in off the bench and Flip gives him the freedom to create his own offense. If he starts at SF, he becomes 3rd or 4th option behind Wall/Gil/Dray where he's no where near as effective. He's arguably our best one on one player right now.

Not only that, starting him would require him to contribute in other aspects of the game other than scoring, particularly rebounding, and we all know how horrid his rebounding is.

Except amazingly, Nick has started to grow even that part of his game.

Last 4 games he has had 4, 3, 3, and 4 rebounds and 1 assist in each of those game. Earlier this year he had a 5 and 6 rebound game back to back. If Nick could keep that string going that would be an amazing development. This is the area of his game I always hated and had me wanting us to ship him out. I expected if he did more of these things that he would be a less streaky shooter game by game because he would have more things to feel positive about even after a missed shot and Flip would be less likely to pull him. We all know how much of Nick games is based on him not being over down on himself.

Flip is clearly giving him minutes every game where he seems to be targeted for around 32 minutes. Averaging 3-4 rebounds for nick in that amount of time would be like 12 rebounds to an average player. lol Actually, one of those 4 rebound game he did it in only 23 minutes. Again, people get on Flip a lot and say he is the wrong HC for these guys but look at Nick and McGee this year.

3-4 rebounds. 20 or more points in 32 minutes and decent defense for a player who has not reached his peak maturity,

Actually, I want to see Flip give him even a few more minutes on those nights what he has it going. Specially if others dont.

Now what I want to see Nick focus on also is..taking it to the rack a few more time. He is really good at making shots after contact and he is a good FT shooter. This is one of the things this team is sorely lacking and the more Nick does it, the less we need Wall to do it. Wall just ends up getting pounded and injured.

Nick has clearly grow and even grown up some this year.

[hands11]

Come on, mhd. Do I need to list the non-lotto picks that have been all-stars, legit starters, and valuable rotation guys? Sure the odds are against that, but never up never in. I'd rather have a rookie with his entire rookie contract in front of him that Nick on an extension if it's for any more than $2.5-$3M/yr.

The only thing Nick has "shown" is that he can be a decent scorer on a terrible team. I'd be willing to bet anything that he ends the season with a sub-15 PER.

Fish

I think your being a little harsh on Nick but I can understand why. As you said, you don't believe he can keep it up. But look at this lines this year. I can't recall Nick going on a run like this. And he is older and more experienced now. It could just be that he finally is getting it. And Flip is rewarding him for it.

He is no longer smiley Nick on the court. He added some muscle. He is actually rebounding. Just look at the game where he has player 20 or more minutes this year. Of those game, one was the first game of the year where he didn't play well. One of SAC the other day where he laid an egg. One was at MIA were he was 4-15. And MEM 1-8 was the other bad game. The other 10 games of 20 minutes or more he crushed averaging around 20 something pts a game on what looks like from just scanning the number ... over .500% shooting. For the year including all games he is shooting

.471

That is amazing for something who is mostly a jump shooter.

[pancakes3]

i think if given his track record over the 20 game sample size, we can optimistically expect Nick to not just be a sparkplug off the bench, but a fully adequate starting SG if/when gilbert leaves.

i mean, honestly are there really that many shooting guards in the league better than N1? i'd take him over the likes of Thabo, Raja Bell, Bogans, or even Mayo.

[hands11]

i think if given his track record over the 20 game sample size, we can optimistically expect Nick to not just be a sparkplug off the bench, but a fully adequate starting SG if/when gilbert leaves.

i mean, honestly are there really that many shooting guards in the league better than N1? i'd take him over the likes of Thabo, Raja Bell, Bogans, or even Mayo.

But as talented as he is, I just don't see that he has that intestinal fortitude that will ever allow him to be a Wade, Kobe top flight main attack leader. This is where Gil feel a little short also. Just not quit the right personality. Amazing talent but something is missing. But I think both has made some progress in this area this year. I don't think if Gil is put in that position again that he would mess up like he did again.

Good news is, Wall seems to have that kind of personality. So there is one person with it.

This is why SF is so important to this team. We need another Wall type personality to fill that slot and the player needs to be strong and durable. We need at least a PP in his prime type. That would buy us time to figure out what to do at PF and it would take pressure off Dray not being an explosive leaper.

This is why I am looking forward to adding Howard. He may not be exactly what we need but he is a lot more of it then what we have. The down side to adding Howard is that we may win more games now at the expense of another really high draft pick who could be the real answer long term.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/s ... yerId=2006
I'll take some of that 08-09 efficiency. Man that dudes arms are long.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_FfubG3oLg

[fishercob]

Come on, mhd. Do I need to list the non-lotto picks that have been all-stars, legit starters, and valuable rotation guys? Sure the odds are against that, but never up never in. I'd rather have a rookie with his entire rookie contract in front of him that Nick on an extension if it's for any more than $2.5-$3M/yr.

The only thing Nick has "shown" is that he can be a decent scorer on a terrible team. I'd be willing to bet anything that he ends the season with a sub-15 PER.

Fish

I think your being a little harsh on Nick but I can understand why. As you said, you don't believe he can keep it up. But look at this lines this year. I can't recall Nick going on a run like this. And he is older and more experienced now. It could just be that he finally is getting it. And Flip is rewarding him for it.

He is no longer smiley Nick on the court. He added some muscle. He is actually rebounding. Just look at the game where he has player 20 or more minutes this year. Of those game, one was the first game of the year where he didn't play well. One of SAC the other day where he laid an egg. One was at MIA were he was 4-15. And MEM 1-8 was the other bad game. The other 10 games of 20 minutes or more he crushed averaging around 20 something pts a game on what looks like from just scanning the number ... over .500% shooting. For the year including all games he is shooting

.471

That is amazing for something who is mostly a jump shooter.

I'm not trying to be hard on the guy, handsy. I'd love it if I am proven completely wrong and the Nick of the last 20 games is the "real Nick" and the one from his first three seasons is long gone. I agree with your assertion that his shooting numbers are remarkable for a jump shooter, and given how he performed during his first three seasons I don't expect him to keep this up.

He's not really rebounding much better though. While his rebounding rates are better than those of his past two years, he's still below where he was as a rookie. He's not quite on par with Steve Nash in the rebounding department.

I would table any talk of trading Young until the Trade Deadline. I'm not convinced that Young has turned the corner and become a reliable offensive player, but I'm not convinced that he hasn't either. Given our desperate lack of offensive talent, I'd be loathe to trade away a guy who might conceivably be our SG of the future for a late 1st round pick.

I hope things will be a bit clearer in two months. If Young continues to play this well, I'd keep him. If not, then I'd be open to trading him.

Nate, I think you'd agree that it's extremely likely that his shooting will cool off, yes? So my question to you (and this is an actual question, not an argument) is at what level can his offense regress to but Nick still be worth keeping around?

Obviously if his PER slips down in that 11 or 12 range, he's hardly worth a roster spot. But what about in that 13.5 range? Do we extend him, and if so for how much?

I think back to how loudly Dat screamed about how meaty contracts for mediocre players -- Stephenson, Songaila, Daniels, etc. -- were doom for the organization. Whether there's causality or not, we've just seen Blatche sign a big extension and proceed to play like warm poo poo for the first quarter season (yes, there may be mitigating circumstances, but these are the facts nonetheless). Nick is not the kind of guy I trust to sign up for $10-$15M guaranteed (or more, heaven forbid) and then continue to ply his craft and move heaven and earth to make himself and his team better. Like I said, I hope I'm wrong. But at this stage of the rebuild, Nick Young is not a guy I'm very comfortable building around.

Now, all of that said....

Nick is a pure shooting guard. He doesn't have a point guard bone in his body. And it occurs to me that over the course of his his three seasons, Nick has been set up by the like of Antonio Daniels, Crittenton, Mike James, Dee Brown, Juan Dixon, Earl Boykins, and Randy Foye -- a veritable trash heap of NBA point guards. And interestingly, Nick had a nice run of scoring down the stretch last year, playing alongside a true set-up man in Shaun Livingston.

So maybe he hasn't actually gotten much better, so much that he's now being set up by Wall, Gilbert (they'd played like 40 games together in 3 years, and I'm guessing pretty few minutes together) and Hinrich -- probably the three best PG's he's played with. Maybe the Wizards just finally have the right personnel to exploit what Nick does well.

Hopefully it's the latter scenario and Nick continues to get open looks in the right spots. Maybe as long as Wall is here, Nick has a place too.

[Dat2U]

Come on, mhd. Do I need to list the non-lotto picks that have been all-stars, legit starters, and valuable rotation guys? Sure the odds are against that, but never up never in. I'd rather have a rookie with his entire rookie contract in front of him that Nick on an extension if it's for any more than $2.5-$3M/yr.

The only thing Nick has "shown" is that he can be a decent scorer on a terrible team. I'd be willing to bet anything that he ends the season with a sub-15 PER.

Here here! I've always been a firm believer in striking while the iron is hot. In Nick's case I'm not sure if it will get any hotter. Funny, I think I said the same thing after Antawn's & Caron's all-star appearances and got killed for it. No one knows Nick better than the organization & us Wizard's fans. If we truly believe that Nick can't keep up this level of play then we should be investigating ways to improve this team going forward. We aren't necessarily playing for this year as we trying to position ourselves to be very good a few years from now.

I don't know what type of value Nick has but a future 1st round pick would pique my interest. As would a package deal with maybe another marginal prospect or player to bring someone who could help us beyond this season.

As you alluded to, Nick's impending free agency plays a huge role in this. Do we really want to give another questionable IQ guy a long term deal? We've already got Blatche on the books for years to come. And likely, we'll want to re-up McGee based on his development. That might fill our quota of knuckleheads and right now I'm not against trading Blatche down the road based on what I've seen thus far.

[Induveca]

In some ways Young reminds me of Richard Hamilton in terms of their progression/vibe through the first three seasons.

Many back in the day thought Rip was a waste, he was lost on the floor for much of his first two seasons. He did show major improvement jumps however, much like Young is doing this year. We all know what kind of player he became, and they have similar games. Can't remember too many guys who can knock down midrange jumpers.....we shouldn't forget how valuable that is in this league.

Seriously their per 36 minute numbers are almost identical through 3 seasons.

Code: Select all

Hamilton (PER 36 Minutes Numbers):
1st Season      16.8 PPG   .420 FG%   1.2 TOV
2nd Season      20.2 PPG   .438 FG%   2.6 TOV
3rd Season      20.6 PPG   .435 FG%   2.1 TOV
4th Season      19.7 PPG   .443 FG%   2.4 TOV

Young (PER 36 Minutes Numbers):
1st Season      17.4 PPG   .439 FG%   2.9 TOV
2nd Season      17.5 PPG   .444 FG%   1.8 TOV
3rd Season      16.2 PPG   .418 FG%   1.4 TOV
4th Season      20.4 PPG   .471 FG%   1.1 TOV


Looking at those numbers and his huge improvement in play this year, and considering he can actually play defense I'd keep the guy. This isn't a Blatche situation, Young actually produced in a fashion similar to Hamilton as well at USC. The kid can play, I think it's beginning to come together for him.......

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Nick is a guy that Flip should start and play at least 36 minutes a night. He is playing exceptionally well.

The Wizards are more talented than their record. Flip should be running more athletic players with size relative to their position. Young is the best SG on this team and it is not even close for second. Nick defends adequately and he can average 20-22 points easily.

[verbal8]

Please, non-lotto picks are at best 8-10th men and Nick Young has shown he can be starting SG/6th man the way he's playing. He'll always play in the NBA b/c he's an excellent 3 point shooter. What happens when that pick is crap like James Johnson or Earl Clark?

I'd much rather have Nick Young than a lotto protected first. And the way the Bulls are plaing, that pick will be in the 20s, something the Wiz can simply buy on draft night if they wanted to.

I think the rebuilding strategy is to build a core of young stars with relatively complete games. Nick Young is young enough, but the chances of him developing a complete game are very low. There is a risk in giving up a legit NBA player, for a question mark. However now is the time to take that risk. I think once the core is starting to develop(like OKC this year), then you add in a player like Nick Young on a 1 or 2 year deal.

I think Nick Young will be too expensive keep right now. The deal that sticks out in my mind is the deal that Foye got and I think Young is more valuable.

[hands11]

I like the points that were made regarding who has Nick had as a PG through the years. Very true.

It is interesting looking over his game log form NBA reference.

He actually got a lot more minutes game by game then I remember. He even posted games where he did rebound decently. He actually did post some decent numbers when he was getting consistent minutes. But then he would have a drop in minutes either seemingly unexpected or because of a bad game or two. A few games would go by. Then he would get consistent minutes again.

Guess we will see how this plays out with him seemingly slotted for 30 something minutes a game along with a group of PGs who can get him the ball in the right spot without him always going 1 on 5.

This is what this year is about in large park. Seeing what we have now that we actually have some PGs. That alone should make it so people can actually play their positions more effectively.

[Induveca]

I wouldn't stress too much, with the lockout coming I'm sure Young would be quite happy to re-up at a reasonable rate prior to the end of the season if he continues his solid play.

The thing I'd be more worried about is who is going to keep him in check during the offseason if he does actually re-up with us? We're going to have a slew of guys who are extremely young not getting paid, scared to workout due to injury, and getting hammered on a nightly basis.

Personally, and I realize this is a pretty radical idea, if I were Leonsis I'd use some backchannels (through agents/scouts) if the lockout was certainly inevitable, and make it known my players were available to lesser European clubs next season if they acquire the proper health insurance for said players.

Even more radical idea, put something in the contract that states if a lockout occurs, the player would be required to take a job in Europe for the period of the lockout. I think if it's signed this year, under the context of the negotiations it would make sense for all involved. It just protects the DEVELOPMENT of your investment. I'd much rather Young be playing basketball in Turkey or Israel instead of playing XBox in Virginia, getting out of shape and out clubbing with Blatche for 6-7 months.

[hands11]

This lock out thing does kind of throw a wrench into things.

Sucks really.

[Hoopalotta]

Actually, the window for extensions with Nick (and all our guys wrapping up rookie scale contracts) closed at the end of October, so he's 100% going into restricted free agency with us having no more say on the matter other than the Qualifying Offer.

[tontoz]

Kyle Korver has never had a PER over 15 (it is currently 13) but he has always gotten steady minutes off the bench even on strong teams because of his ability to hit perimeter shots and space the floor. Floor spacing doesn't show up in PER but is a very important part of the game.

Hinrich is a goner so that leaves only Gil as a proven 3 point shooter.