Political Roundtable Part XXII

[stilldropin20]

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if i'm trump i would not let this guy resign...id be like GTFO!!!!

[Jamaaliver]

^Democracy only works for the rich and powerful...got it.

NOTE: You clearly don't know your Presidential history.

Spoiler:

The Saturday Night Massacre was a series of events which took place in the United States on the evening of Saturday, October 20, 1973, during the Watergate scandal. U.S. President Richard Nixon ordered Attorney General Elliot Richardson to fire independent special prosecutor Archibald Cox; Richardson refused and resigned effective immediately. Nixon then ordered Deputy Attorney General William Ruckelshaus to fire Cox; Ruckelshaus refused, and also resigned. Nixon then ordered the third-most-senior official at the Justice Department, Solicitor General Robert Bork, to fire Cox. Bork considered resigning, but did as Nixon asked. The political and public reaction to Nixon's actions were negative and highly damaging to the president. A new special counsel was appointed eleven days later on November 1, 1973,[1] and on November 14, 1973, a court ruled that the dismissal had been illegal.[2][3]

Wikipedia

When even Sean Hannity is warning against doing it...you have to know it's a bad idea.

[Jamaaliver]

Robert Mueller is playing a long game on the Russia investigation, and it's paying off

Mueller's careful strategy is increasing the likelihood his report will see the light, and Rod Rosenstein and Jeff Sessions will keep their jobs.

Since January, Mueller and his team have reportedly been talking with the president’s lawyers about securing his testimony. By dragging out the negotiations, Mueller has allowed breathing room for the rest of his investigation. And he has put that time to good use.

Mueller has charged 12 Russian military intelligence officers with hacking Democratic National Committee emails; reached a plea deal with Rick Gates, Trump’s former deputy campaign manager; sentenced George Papadopoulos, the campaign’s former foreign policy adviser; and reached a cooperation agreement with former campaign manager Paul Manafort after convicting him on eight criminal charges.

By all accounts, the end is nowhere in sight. Mueller is like Shakespeare's Birnam Wood, creeping closer to the White House step by step, without the president fully realizing it.

Allowing the president to believe he is calling some shots and pushing back on the investigation gives Trump the illusion of control and makes him less likely to panic, lose his temper, and impulsively try to fire Mueller or his boss, Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein.

While the president’s revolving door of lawyers has been occupied protecting the president from himself, Mueller has been playing the long game. What Trump’s legal team considers a victory is a deliberate strategy by Mueller to continue kicking the can down the road and making sure the investigation — and his and Rosenstein’s jobs — survive the process.

USA Today

[dobrojim]

Now as a lefty kid who grew up on "question authority" buttons and protest marches and watched the Watergate hearings in my hippie co-op daycare and then watched the Hippies become Yuppies in the 'get yours' 80's and protest folk songs become nihilist punk rock --

--then the rise of hiphop first as black CNN then gangster rap becoming 'keeping it real' where fake gangsters try to attain gang status and an artform that disseminated information that wasn't being heard otherwise instead devolved into incoherent mumbling, in a country where a Right wing court was packed and suddenly corporations have more rights than citizens and people get upset and scared at the radical concept that black lives matter.... I dunno.

I'd have more words probably in the poetry thread trying to tease it all out.

But. Can we find points of agreement? Yes. Why not.

Of course there is an international conspiracy of moneyed interests. Duh. There are multiple competing ICOMI's if I can coin an acronym. Some are more successful than others at steering the future. Some have more some have less guiding principles scruples or ethics, or ethnicity if you give a **** about that sort of thing. Personally I doubt my ability to influence or affect money on that scale. But Im all for democracy as a concept where the little guy banding together behind an idea can even in a small way steer policy that affects the powerful. Why I also believe in unions even though they of course are also corrupt at times.

Of course there is a Deep State. Stupid to me that things have gotten so jiu jistu twisted that you have Lefty sorts defending the guilds of assassins and covert influence. But spycraft is necessary ugly work and should transcend cable news level of herky jerk news cycle driven belief systems. It should identify the aims of statecraft and attempt to further our best interests in the world. Stateside it should look at dangerous and destabilizing criminality within our borders and blunt or neuter it and lock up bad actors.

Of course the Intelligence community and the Fourth Estate are biased against Trump. He has earned it by attacking them. Chosen powerful enemies. This is what he does. Why you like him. He p1sses people off. Right or wrong.

I don't know why Hillary comes up again and again except to deflect inquiry to other failings. But as a lefty, yeah I don't know anyone who really liked her, even if she was the most qualified and experienced candidate to ever run for that office (having shaped Bills policies, served in the Senate, served as Sec State and been in public policy all her life). Yes she was in the pocket of Wall Street. And was a hawk when it came to middle east policy and the influence of Russia. Between Putin and Hillary we would be in a reactivated cold war right now. There might be more strikes and military action. I disliked her as a candidate, even while I respected that --as hated as she is-- she must have been doing something right, since she kept getting elected and gaining progressively more responsibility even with grudging respect from her peers across the aisle. I liked her better after reading her 'secret' emails. Brassy, tough, with heart, and still keeping an eye on the underserved. I still thought she was an awful candidate since her public charisma is negative.

Yes an increased inheritance tax would mean legacy wealth is not simply sitting untouched and swelling but pours back into public policy in potentially positive ways.

As for Trump. Um. Yeah. I agree he shakes things up.

I have my opinion about all of the above, but living in NYC in the 80's I have hated Trump long before he had a reality show or political ambitions. He has had racist housing policies. Anyone who has ever been in business with him has gotten ripped off. He looks for low bids and then fails to pay and says "well you are getting benefit from my name" and if you push he says "sue me" or he will threaten the little guy with lawsuits if they speak out about it.

He is no self-made millionaire or billionaire, he has commonly had more debt than income, or paper value, or leastways that has been the scuttlebutt in NYC Real Estate common wisdom, but and has been bailed out of six bankruptcies by his family and by borrowing more money from ever shadier sources. Bluster and debt and losing other peoples money has been how he made his name. Then he got a reality show.

I've known maintenance folk who work in his buildings and who also know the shady side of shady (if you're in Chicago real estate you understand) who say his highest priced properties were largely empty zombie real estate until Russians with bodyguards started buying apartments. And often leaving them empty. IN NYC in the 90s there were only two sources of cash in real estate after the Japanese stopped investing overseas: China and the Russian mafia. Its common chatter. Ask an FBI field agent in NYC who the bad actors were once the italian mafia got fat and toothless.

But yeah in NYC every time his name was attached to something it would have a glam surface and flashy opening -- and a bad ending with lawsuits and the little guy getting snuffed. Interview anyone from a company catering his event, to the guy delivering marble veneers for his lobby who had to himself go out of business behind unpaid invoices followed by lawsuits. He's shady as they come and a total conman. His deal is NDAs for everyone then lawsuits when you complain after he inevitably rips you off. That's how he approaches every deal: big promises, no follow thru, and in every deal somebody is ripping somebody off.

As for his governance. Eh, too much to go into. Except to say that to me the way to repatriate wealth as far as Im concerned is not to give tax cuts to the richest earners and owners. But instead to foster small business growth. Tax breaks not for corporations but for mom and pop businesses. Not for capital gains. But for businesses involved in building infrastructure, sustainable energy. Not corporate agribusiness. But the working dude. The America of MAGA was not so great for people of color or any difference (gay, foreign, etc) but if you look at the countries greatest explosion of wealth and the middle class, following WW2 look at the tax code. Millionaires were taxed at a dollar for dollar rate. To whom much is given much is expected. And we used it to build a transportation system and NASA and the internet and the best University system in the world etc etc etc. Investing in the future. Even sci fi of that time was hopeful, believing science could cure the world.

And with a family that has folks from Cambodia and the Carribean and European immigrants fleeing Hitler, it seems to me stupid to slam the door on immigration. Instead we have often renewed ourselves and built our country with the people who have the brass nuts to look at where they were born and want better for themselves and their family. The Drumpf family. Trump knew first gen immigrants in his own family. Even Ivana and Melania came over here to take their hoeing to a more lucrative market. Anyway. Much to argue about but no point. Unless we are trying to find middle ground or solutions.

Doc's already HoF in my mind, but if he wasn't, this post should have been all it would take.

Thank you. I'd love to meet you in person sometime.

[dobrojim]

The GOP is just a complete embarrassment and absolute dumpster fire. Imagine supporting them in year 2018

I want a yard sign

"the GOP is the swamp"

breathtaking corruption and lack of principle in the pursuit of power

[I_Like_Dirt]

^Democracy only works for the rich and powerful...got it.

NOTE: You clearly don't know your Presidential history.

Spoiler:

The Saturday Night Massacre was a series of events which took place in the United States on the evening of Saturday, October 20, 1973, during the Watergate scandal. U.S. President Richard Nixon ordered Attorney General Elliot Richardson to fire independent special prosecutor Archibald Cox; Richardson refused and resigned effective immediately. Nixon then ordered Deputy Attorney General William Ruckelshaus to fire Cox; Ruckelshaus refused, and also resigned. Nixon then ordered the third-most-senior official at the Justice Department, Solicitor General Robert Bork, to fire Cox. Bork considered resigning, but did as Nixon asked. The political and public reaction to Nixon's actions were negative and highly damaging to the president. A new special counsel was appointed eleven days later on November 1, 1973,[1] and on November 14, 1973, a court ruled that the dismissal had been illegal.[2][3]

Wikipedia

When even Sean Hannity is warning against doing it...you have to know it's a bad idea.

Trump targets the media to weaken it to make it easier to bend and therefore easier to exploit. He's clearly trying to build pressure to get Rosenstein to resign because he knows that firing him is a big problem. If Rosenstein resigns, Trump gets to demonstrate how strong he is that Rosenstein was so afraid of him being fired that he resigned instead, so he gets credit for firing him, only moreso, and none of the legal ramifications. Rosenstein knows this, and apparently doesn't hate his job enough yet to allow Trump to get away with it.

[Jamaaliver]

An Illinois priest living legally in the U.S. for 14 years is being deported — over a single vote he shouldn’t have cast

He has been a priest at two Episcopal churches for the past 14 years in Alton, a southern Illinois river town on the banks of the Mississippi, and when he arrived from England in 2004, he said he knew fairly quickly that he never intended to leave. It was, “as we say about priestly work,” his calling.

But that’s all scheduled to come crashing down Friday, when Boase, a legal permanent resident, expects to be removed from the country by an immigration judge because of a violation 12 years ago.

At issue? A single vote cast in 2006.

Boase was placed in removal proceedings last month, roughly a year after he admitted during his citizenship interview with U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services that, yes, he once registered to vote, and yes, he once cast a vote.

Washington Post

[nate33]

:nonono:

An Illinois priest living legally in the U.S. for 14 years is being deported — over a single vote he shouldn’t have cast

He has been a priest at two Episcopal churches for the past 14 years in Alton, a southern Illinois river town on the banks of the Mississippi, and when he arrived from England in 2004, he said he knew fairly quickly that he never intended to leave. It was, “as we say about priestly work,” his calling.

But that’s all scheduled to come crashing down Friday, when Boase, a legal permanent resident, expects to be removed from the country by an immigration judge because of a violation 12 years ago.

At issue? A single vote cast in 2006.

Boase was placed in removal proceedings last month, roughly a year after he admitted during his citizenship interview with U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services that, yes, he once registered to vote, and yes, he once cast a vote.

Washington Post

I don't understand. I've been reliably told that illegal immigrants don't vote. How is this possible?

[Jamaaliver]

^Touche

[Jamaaliver]

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Spoiler:

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Read on Twitter

[Pointgod]

^Democracy only works for the rich and powerful...got it.

NOTE: You clearly don't know your Presidential history.

Spoiler:

The Saturday Night Massacre was a series of events which took place in the United States on the evening of Saturday, October 20, 1973, during the Watergate scandal. U.S. President Richard Nixon ordered Attorney General Elliot Richardson to fire independent special prosecutor Archibald Cox; Richardson refused and resigned effective immediately. Nixon then ordered Deputy Attorney General William Ruckelshaus to fire Cox; Ruckelshaus refused, and also resigned. Nixon then ordered the third-most-senior official at the Justice Department, Solicitor General Robert Bork, to fire Cox. Bork considered resigning, but did as Nixon asked. The political and public reaction to Nixon's actions were negative and highly damaging to the president. A new special counsel was appointed eleven days later on November 1, 1973,[1] and on November 14, 1973, a court ruled that the dismissal had been illegal.[2][3]

Wikipedia

When even Sean Hannity is warning against doing it...you have to know it's a bad idea.

Trump targets the media to weaken it to make it easier to bend and therefore easier to exploit. He's clearly trying to build pressure to get Rosenstein to resign because he knows that firing him is a big problem. If Rosenstein resigns, Trump gets to demonstrate how strong he is that Rosenstein was so afraid of him being fired that he resigned instead, so he gets credit for firing him, only moreso, and none of the legal ramifications. Rosenstein knows this, and apparently doesn't hate his job enough yet to allow Trump to get away with it.

Rosenstein won't quit. His loyalty is to the country not Trump and knows he's the only thing stopping this investigation from being slow rolled.Just imagine just how much more Rosenstein knows about the investigation. Trumps dirty and he knows it. That's why won't resign.

[gtn130]

Trump meeting with Rosenstein on Thursday seems like a tell that this is all one big dumb distraction from Kavanaugh

[stilldropin20]

^Democracy only works for the rich and powerful...got it.

NOTE: You clearly don't know your Presidential history.

Spoiler:

Wikipedia

When even Sean Hannity is warning against doing it...you have to know it's a bad idea.

Trump targets the media to weaken it to make it easier to bend and therefore easier to exploit. He's clearly trying to build pressure to get Rosenstein to resign because he knows that firing him is a big problem. If Rosenstein resigns, Trump gets to demonstrate how strong he is that Rosenstein was so afraid of him being fired that he resigned instead, so he gets credit for firing him, only moreso, and none of the legal ramifications. Rosenstein knows this, and apparently doesn't hate his job enough yet to allow Trump to get away with it.

Rosenstein won't quit. His loyalty is to the country not Trump and knows he's the only thing stopping this investigation from being slow rolled.Just imagine just how much more Rosenstein knows about the investigation. Trumps dirty and he knows it. That's why won't resign.

so logically if rosenstein DOES resign it means that:

1. rosenstein and mueller dont have jack shxt!
2. Rosenstein knows nothing more than we the people already know. which is almost nothing but a bunch of perjury traps, ancient tax bs, and russia meddled.
3. the investigation is not being slow rolled now since rosenstein is still in charge...so what we have is what we got...aka nothing.
4. you're not only wrong, but you are also an idiot.
5. and finally trumps NOT dirty. if he was...as you say. rosenstein won't resign!

[stilldropin20]

Trump meeting with Rosenstein on Thursday seems like a tell that this is all one big dumb distraction from Kavanaugh

just so you(GTN and Pointgod) fools know, rosenstein was intricately involved in the selection and nomination of Bret kavanaugh.

So you're biggest hero is also your most hated villain.

[dckingsfan]

^Democracy only works for the rich and powerful...got it.

NOTE: You clearly don't know your Presidential history.

Spoiler:

Wikipedia

When even Sean Hannity is warning against doing it...you have to know it's a bad idea.

Trump targets the media to weaken it to make it easier to bend and therefore easier to exploit. He's clearly trying to build pressure to get Rosenstein to resign because he knows that firing him is a big problem. If Rosenstein resigns, Trump gets to demonstrate how strong he is that Rosenstein was so afraid of him being fired that he resigned instead, so he gets credit for firing him, only moreso, and none of the legal ramifications. Rosenstein knows this, and apparently doesn't hate his job enough yet to allow Trump to get away with it.

Rosenstein won't quit. His loyalty is to the country not Trump and knows he's the only thing stopping this investigation from being slow rolled.Just imagine just how much more Rosenstein knows about the investigation. Trumps dirty and he knows it. That's why won't resign.

He probably won't quit - but even if he does this has been quite a good exercise. I am guessing that regardless, Mueller will be able to continue his investigation - which is what a majority of Americans want...

[stilldropin20]

:nonono:

An Illinois priest living legally in the U.S. for 14 years is being deported — over a single vote he shouldn’t have cast

He has been a priest at two Episcopal churches for the past 14 years in Alton, a southern Illinois river town on the banks of the Mississippi, and when he arrived from England in 2004, he said he knew fairly quickly that he never intended to leave. It was, “as we say about priestly work,” his calling.

But that’s all scheduled to come crashing down Friday, when Boase, a legal permanent resident, expects to be removed from the country by an immigration judge because of a violation 12 years ago.

At issue? A single vote cast in 2006.

Boase was placed in removal proceedings last month, roughly a year after he admitted during his citizenship interview with U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services that, yes, he once registered to vote, and yes, he once cast a vote.

Washington Post

I don't understand. I've been reliably told that illegal immigrants don't vote. How is this possible?

I lived in alton for 5 years. its a small town. about 10,000 people actually live in town. everyone knows everyone. espeically a member of the church...and HE voted!!??? Everyone would know this guy after spending 2 years in a church of all places.

Now imagine living in a completely transient hispanic neighborhood with 300,000 hispanics and at least 25,000 of them transient in the neighborhood...how easy it would be to vote!

I would NOT be surprised if cities like chicago have 5,000-10,000 illegal votes in every major election season.

[Jamaaliver]

^And yet study after study has determined otherwise:

Nineteen foreign nationals have been charged with illegal voting in the 2016 election, the Justice Department said Friday.

The defendants are from numerous countries, including Mexico, the Dominican Republic, Nigeria and Germany.

The announcement comes amid an intense debate at the state level over voter fraud and efforts by Republican lawmakers to impose voter ID restrictions.

President Trump has long claimed widespread voting fraud took place in the 2016 election, an assertion that has not been substantiated. But Democrats argue voting fraud is not a widespread problem.

Fox News

Spoiler:

The Justice Department announced on Friday that 19 foreign nationals have been charged with illegally voting in the 2016 election, according to the Justice Department.

Fact checkers have debunked President Donald Trump's false claims that there was widespread voter fraud during the 2016 election. Election experts emphasize that such fraud is rare in the context of more than 1 billion votes cast since 2000.

CNN

[TGW]

Read on Twitter

[Pointgod]

Trump targets the media to weaken it to make it easier to bend and therefore easier to exploit. He's clearly trying to build pressure to get Rosenstein to resign because he knows that firing him is a big problem. If Rosenstein resigns, Trump gets to demonstrate how strong he is that Rosenstein was so afraid of him being fired that he resigned instead, so he gets credit for firing him, only moreso, and none of the legal ramifications. Rosenstein knows this, and apparently doesn't hate his job enough yet to allow Trump to get away with it.

Rosenstein won't quit. His loyalty is to the country not Trump and knows he's the only thing stopping this investigation from being slow rolled.Just imagine just how much more Rosenstein knows about the investigation. Trumps dirty and he knows it. That's why won't resign.

so logically if rosenstein DOES resign it means that:

1. rosenstein and mueller dont have jack shxt!
2. Rosenstein knows nothing more than we the people already know. which is almost nothing but a bunch of perjury traps, ancient tax bs, and russia meddled.
3. the investigation is not being slow rolled now since rosenstein is still in charge...so what we have is what we got...aka nothing.
4. you're not only wrong, but you are also an idiot.
5. and finally trumps NOT dirty. if he was...as you say. rosenstein won't resign!

I wonder this is the same non partisan coming together that GhostofChernier talks about. We should all respect the other side blah blah this is complete crap. Whatever.

Anyways STD you're wrong about Rosenstein. Do you honestly think the person that Mueller reports to and had to justify his work doesn't know more than the average person that reads the news paper. You're wrong about Rosenstein resigning just like you're wrong about everything else (because you read right wing garbage)

[Jamaaliver]

Meanwhile...

US, China clobber each other with biggest sets of tariffs yet

The commercial battle between the United States and China heated up Monday as the economic powerhouses slapped each other with the largest rounds of tariffs yet, unleashing punitive duties now on roughly half of their traded goods.

President Trump imposed fresh levies on $200 billion in Chinese imports, prompting Beijing to respond with tariffs on $60 billion in American goods, approaching the point of running out of U.S. products to target.

Neither of the world’s two largest economies showed signs of backing down, and there are no further trade talks scheduled to resolve the dispute.

China has refused to cave amid Trump’s escalating threats. Officials on Friday canceled trade negotiations that were scheduled this week in Washington and then scrapped military talks with the United States that were supposed to start in Beijing on Tuesday.

Beijing has launched efforts to influence the conversation in the US Midwest, as well.

[Chinese] State media purchased a four-page advertisement in Iowa’s largest newspaper this week warning American soybean farmers that Trump’s trade war would shift business to South America. A coalition of more than 80 industry and agricultural groups in the United States, meanwhile, also protested on Monday the intensifying economic conflict.

Washington Post