Deni Avdija

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Would have loved Haliburton with the pick....

I wanted Halliburton....

Me too

A year or so after a draft, somehow it always turns out that the guy who has developed into the best player out of that class was the guy I wanted.

For example, in 2018, the guy I wanted to take with our #15 pick was...

Spoiler:

hold on... hold on... it'll take me a minute to go check all the guys available at that spot & figure out which among them has become the best NBA player.

Actually, come to think of it, that'd take a long time -- why don't you guys do it instead, & whoever you decide was best -- that's the guy I wanted, ok?

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Drafts are emotional. People make snap judgments -- then... there they are to be looked at forever!

...You're seriously telling me he's got a higher upside than Achiuwa?...

That was by one of our most active posters here, written a week or so after the draft.

Doesn't matter who -- there were a bunch of similar ones. A whole bunch of people would have hooted & hollered with happiness if we'd taken Precious. Given that, in retrospect, he isn't looking all that great any more, most of them now remember being 1000% in favor of us taking Tyrese Haliburton -- & no one else!

...like he's ever going to be more than slightly bigger Satoransky.

More of the same....

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The guy everyone wanted was Okongwu. Views on Haliburton were decidedly mixed. Here's what I wrote the day after the draft -- when memories were nice & fresh:

...The guys most talked about here, if Okongwu was gone, were: Achiuwa (went #20), Saddiq Bey (#19), Nesmith (#14) & Vassell (#11).

We don't know how it'll work out, of course. But I'm pretty happy that we got him at the 9th pick in the draft. Seems like quite good value. Seems like he was the highest-value target available when we picked.

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...I don't really see a path to non-bust status for LaMelo Ball, ...I view Okoro, Edwards, and Williams as likely busts. Wiseman I like....

Again by a frequent poster here, written a couple of days after the '20 draft.

Do Anthony Edwards or LaMelo Ball look like busts to anyone? Okoro played 2000 minutes this year & is an established, solid NBA player at 21 years old.

Wiseman, otoh....

No need to call attention to who wrote it -- we all make mistakes aplenty.

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...I wanted to draft Okongwu, Okoro or Achiuwa....

This is a pretty representative remark post-draft. Again by one of our core group here.

Certainly there was some support for drafting Haliburton! Why wouldn't there be?

As there was for drafting Vassell. & for Saddiq Bey. A couple of people at least were pulling for Kira Lewis. CCJ wanted Jalen Smith.

If I had to pick the dozen best players (so far, obviously) out of the 2020 draft, I'd have no trouble including Deni on the list. But, Desmond Bane would be on it too (#30). Along w/ KMart Jr. (#52), Tyrese Maxey (#21), Tre Jones (#41) -- & Edwards, Ball, Toppin, Haliburton, Xavier Tillman... you pick the 11th &12th guys.

But, hey, what do I know? I thought Tyler Bey would crush it in the NBA. He was gone in 10 minutes!

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Oh, btw... one of the absolute certainties expressed about Deni post-draft was that he would never be able to defend in the NBA.

[DCZards]

I never had much of an opinion about Haliburton so I can't claim to be for or against drafting him. I liked Precious early on but ended up wanting to draft Okoro with S. Bey as my sleeper in the 2020 draft. Would still love to have gotten Okongwu. He showed late in this past season that he's going to be a very good NBA player.

Here's what I wrote in 2020 just before the draft:

Okongwu remains my top choice for the Zards at 9…if he’s available. I also still like Achiuwa as well as Saddiq Bey.

But the guy who’s growing on me is Okoro. Been reading up on him and checking out some of the videos breaking down his strengths and weaknesses. Okoro is a great athlete, plays with an extremely high motor and is an excellent defender…almost certainly the best-wing defender in the draft.

[DCZards]

...I don't really see a path to non-bust status for LaMelo Ball, ...I view Okoro, Edwards, and Williams as likely busts. Wiseman I like....

Again by a frequent poster here, written a couple of days after the '20 draft.

Do Anthony Edwards or LaMelo Ball look like busts to anyone? Okoro played 2000 minutes this year & is an established, solid NBA player at 21 years old.

Wiseman, otoh....

No need to call attention to who wrote it -- we all make mistakes aplenty.

Far too early to call Wiseman a bust. He's played all of 39 NBA games...and is just 21 years old.

[dckingsfan]

I think Ruz was all over Halliburton. I liked Deni... so there is that.

That Deni is spending the summer working on basketball skills and not recovering from an injury is extremely helpful. Having a three will allow him to force defenders to close out letting him get inside.

Yes, he needs to learn to use the oft hand and finish better but that will allow him to up his assists as well.

[Rafael122]

Keep in mind this is Deni's first actual offseason and would be the first one where his coach is actually coming back for a 2nd straight year. That in itself is big for his development.

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...I don't really see a path to non-bust status for LaMelo Ball, ...I view Okoro, Edwards, and Williams as likely busts. Wiseman I like....

Again by a frequent poster here, written a couple of days after the '20 draft.

Do Anthony Edwards or LaMelo Ball look like busts to anyone? Okoro played 2000 minutes this year & is an established, solid NBA player at 21 years old.

Wiseman, otoh....

No need to call attention to who wrote it -- we all make mistakes aplenty.

Far too early to call Wiseman a bust. He's played all of 39 NBA games...and is just 21 years old.

Absolutely correct -- & that's the right attitude to take towards a young person.

Only one problem, Zards: you're interpreting me in the wrong way.

Wiseman is very much at question, obviously. But I didn't call him a bust. What I did was point at someone who wrote: "I don't really see a path to non-bust status for LaMelo Ball, ...I view Okoro, Edwards, and Williams as likely busts. Wiseman I like...."

Those statements are the "mistakes" I was pointing to. Not the players & not the picks. To this point, in other words, not a single piece of that poster's statements & preferences has been supported by the reality of what has actually happened. LaMelo has been tremendous, Edwards too, & Okoro has also proven a good pick. While, to this point, Wiseman hasn't done that yet.

At the same time, I wasn't out to embarrass the person who wrote that stuff. I left his name out for a reason. As I put it -- "we all make mistakes."

& we do, don't we? You, for example: you saw fit to take me to task for calling Wiseman a bust (which I didn't do) while passing over the guy who called "bust" on 4 guys before they'd ever played a game in the NBA!

But, I'm not going to take umbrage -- no big deal. We all make mistakes. Instead I'll let you know that yesterday I was listening to

Watch on YouTube

Check it out -- it's really good.

[DCZards]

PIF, wasn’t taking you to task. Just making a point.

Lee Morgan’s rendition of Golson’s “I Remember Clifford” is special.

Have you seen the documentary “I Called Him Morgan”? Best jazz doc EVER!

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Fair enough. "I Remember Clifford" is a beautiful, beautiful composition. & if I say that on this board only you & I know who would have played it best... I think you'll agree. Haven't seen that Lee Morgan documentary -- but you know I will soon now that I know about it!

I was just a little too young to have caught Clifford live. But I did hear the 19-year-old Lee Morgan play the solo in "Night in Tunisia" with Dizzy's big band. He was all of 4 years, 2 months & 2 days older than me.

I'll stop hijacking this thread, but before I do... the locus classicus:

Watch on YouTube

In my headphones right now... Fats Navarro & Wardell Gray playing bird's great up-temp tune, Anthropology.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

https://synergysports.com/impacting-other-players-shot-quality/

Per Synergy Sports, Deni ranks 4th in the league in expected points saved (2.3) by reducing quality of shots per 100 possessions. Of the top 20, he ranked 6th in possessions seen with only Tatum and White being the only other perimeter/wing players ahead of him in possessions seen.

The list is filled with players known for their defensive ability with some exceptions.

Deni being up there is not surprising. What the big surprise of the list is the guy ranked number twelve, Corey Kispert. Part of me wonders if that's because he was targeted a lot. With that said, he did show some flashes throughout the season to show that he may become an adequate, albeit unflashy, defender.

Regardless, great to see two of the team's youngster doing the small things despite the only conversations going on these days around these parts is the obsessive compulsive talk around either passing on Haliburton or Clarke.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

I was looking at BBR, and I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but based on the numbers, it seems that Deni's real problem with his three ball is that he is horrific from the corners which as we all know is by leaps and bounds the best shot from three. He shot 28.3% from there his rookie year and 26.6% this year; which means to shoot ~32% from three he must be doing pretty good from everywhere else.

Does he have perception issues from there? One would hope he's at the very least aware of this from a statistical point of view with both his trainers and the team's coaching staff.

[nate33]

https://synergysports.com/impacting-other-players-shot-quality/

Per Synergy Sports, Deni ranks 4th in the league in expected points saved (2.3) by reducing quality of shots per 100 possessions. Of the top 20, he ranked 6th in possessions seen with only Tatum and White being the only other perimeter/wing players ahead of him in possessions seen.

The list is filled with players known for their defensive ability with some exceptions.

Deni being up there is not surprising. What the big surprise of the list is the guy ranked number twelve, Corey Kispert. Part of me wonders if that's because he was targeted a lot. With that said, he did show some flashes throughout the season to show that he may become an adequate, albeit unflashy, defender.

Regardless, great to see two of the team's youngster doing the small things despite the only conversations going on these days around these parts is the obsessive compulsive talk around either passing on Haliburton or Clarke.

It's worth noting that the stat uses data from two seasons. Avdija was much worse defensively last year. If it was possible to isolate this seasons' data, my guess is that Avdija would look even better.

[nate33]

What the big surprise of the list is the guy ranked number twelve, Corey Kispert. Part of me wonders if that's because he was targeted a lot. With that said, he did show some flashes throughout the season to show that he may become an adequate, albeit unflashy, defender.

If it's a per possession stat, then the possibility that Kispert is being targeted a lot shouldn't make any difference. It still says that, every time he is targeted, he is doing a better job than most at reducing the points per possession of the opponent that is attacking him.

One thing Kispert does very well is challenge shots without fouling. He has a way of matching momentum with the shooter as the shooter jumps into him, avoiding the foul. He commits just 1.9 fouls per 36 minutes, which is the lowest on the team despite him getting targeted a lot. I suppose that might be a big factor in the points per possession numbers. Sending guys to the FT line really improves their scoring efficiency.

All that said, I never felt that Kispert was a particularly good defender while watching him. My sense is, when he challenges shots, he does so rather ineffectively and guys just score right over him. But perception isn't always reality.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

What the big surprise of the list is the guy ranked number twelve, Corey Kispert. Part of me wonders if that's because he was targeted a lot. With that said, he did show some flashes throughout the season to show that he may become an adequate, albeit unflashy, defender.

If it's a per possession stat, then the possibility that Kispert is being targeted a lot shouldn't make any difference. It still says that, every time he is targeted, he is doing a better job than most at reducing the points per possession of the opponent that is attacking him.

One thing Kispert does very well is challenge shots without fouling. He has a way of matching momentum with the shooter as the shooter jumps into him, avoiding the foul. He commits just 1.9 fouls per 36 minutes, which is the lowest on the team despite him getting targeted a lot. I suppose that might be a big factor in the points per possession numbers. Sending guys to the FT line really improves their scoring efficiency.

All that said, I never felt that Kispert was a particularly good defender while watching him. My sense is, when he challenges shots, he does so rather ineffectively and guys just score right over him. But perception isn't always reality.

My thought was that maybe because he was intentionally targeted so much (being a rookie, etc.) that players were potentially taking shots that were below average possessions more often against him because they underestimated, to whatever degree, Kispert's defensive ability (even if it's below average), thus making him look somewhat better in this particular category. I suppose that's somewhat circular logic, and that at the end of the day it doesn't really matter as long as he's making it harder.

[FAH1223]

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[nate33]

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Uh oh.

Hanlen is really good at teaching footwork and shot-creation skills, as we can all see from Beal's development on that front. But is he really that good of a shot doctor? Beal has gradually gotten worse as a shooter over each of the last 6 seasons.