Political Roundtable Part XV

[gesa2]

Surgical outcomes Canada versus USA by USA Library of Medicine

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2801918/

i'm the doctor with 20 years experience in the field of medicine, not you. go away.

Actually, when measuring overall outcomes - the last person you would want to do the studies would be a physician. Reason: outcome bias.

So, I would rather listen to an economist on this one. This study was done by physicians with data that didn't always match up. I think an economist would say there wasn't enough matching data. You don't dismiss your own study, so they say:

In virtually all areas, study results have demonstrated some apparent advantages for Canada and others for the United States.

+1

SD20: I don`t have the time or patience to get into this in detail but as an American doctor with 25 years of experience, your self justificating rants are completely wrong headed. We waste more money, often causing harm with overtreatment, in America than Canada spends altogether, and our outcomes are no better. If you believed in science at all maybe you wouldn`t base your entire opinion of Canadian medicine on a single oral surgeon you spent a single case with 20 years ago.

[TGW]

Anyone who thinks the U.S. Healthcare system is better than the Canadian system is a complete buffoon.

let me state it another way.

In comparison to the United states, the canadian health care system is the New jersey nets. and the united states is the golden state warriors.

Canadians get season tickets to the nets. and 85% of americans get season tickets to the GSW. and the reamining 15% get standing room only to, again, the GSFW.

10% of your population crosses the boarder to to come see the champs regularly and .01% of you get to see us twice a year.

Guess what, M....ok I'm going to "try" not to insult you.

So according to your logic, NO American citizen would ever leave this country to seek healthcare elsewhere, right? Since the American healthcare system is so awesome, someone would be crazy to go see a doctor elsewhere, huh.

Let's unpack this for a second. If Americans could hypothetically go to Canada to get healthcare (which we can't since only Canadians have access to it), do you know how many Americans would actually go?

I'll give you a hint because I don't think you're too bright: multiply the 45,000 Canadians that came here for healthcare in 2014 by 7, and you'll get the number of Americans who left the United States to go elsewhere for healthcare in that same year.

Do you know why that is? It's because in the US, your healthcare and access to it is dependent on the amount of money you have (aka a wallet biopsy) and in Canada, healthcare is triaged according to NEED. That means an a-hole who needs a tummy-tuck is going to have to wait after the person who got disfigured in a car accident. If the aforementioned a-hole wants his elective surgery sooner, he can go elsewhere and get it (i.e. the people from Canada who come here for services, which are almost strictly ELECTIVE).

So in your scenario, the U.S. healthcare system is more like the Cavs circa 2008. One good player, and the rest of the team stinks.

[cammac]

Anyone who thinks the U.S. Healthcare system is better than the Canadian system is a complete buffoon.

let me state it another way.

In comparison to the United states, the canadian health care system is the New jersey nets. and the united states is the golden state warriors.

Canadians get season tickets to the nets. and 85% of americans get season tickets to the GSW. and the reamining 15% get standing room only to, again, the GSFW.

10% of your population crosses the boarder to to come see the champs regularly and .01% of you get to see us twice a year.

It is also estimated that over 5 million Americans purchase prescriptions in Canada every year with some expensive drugs at a fraction of US drug prices. As SD20 says he is a troll and could care less about people who struggle. The Canadian system is far from perfect in fact on 11 advanced democracies it is rated 9th. Only France and the USA are worse but the spread between 10th and 11th is significant.

Guess what, M....ok I'm going to "try" not to insult you.

So according to your logic, NO American citizen would ever leave this country to seek healthcare elsewhere, right? Since the American healthcare system is so awesome, someone would be crazy to go see a doctor elsewhere, huh.

Let's unpack this for a second. If Americans could hypothetically go to Canada to get healthcare (which we can't since only Canadians have access to it), do you know how many Americans would actually go?

I'll give you a hint because I don't think you're too bright: multiply the 45,000 Canadians that came here for healthcare in 2014 by 7, and you'll get the number of Americans who left the United States to go elsewhere for healthcare in that same year.

Do you know why that is? It's because in the US, your healthcare and access to it is dependent on the amount of money you have (aka a wallet biopsy) and in Canada, healthcare is triaged according to NEED. That means an a-hole who needs a tummy-tuck is going to have to wait after the person who got disfigured in a car accident. If the aforementioned a-hole wants his elective surgery sooner, he can go elsewhere and get it (i.e. the people from Canada who come here for services, which are almost strictly ELECTIVE).

So in your scenario, the U.S. healthcare system is more like the Cavs circa 2008. One good player, and the rest of the team stinks.

[dckingsfan]

I tend to agree statistics can be used to prove anything as was substantiated by the ravings of Nate.
I selected the American study simply because any bias would likely favor a USA position and I don't know the origin of all the studies selected and whether they were done by Physicians or Academics but in this case unlikely a Economist simply because it isn't identifying medicine and outcomes as a cost factor.

The group you choose has been very vocal in their support of single payer... and for quite some time. They have some good arguments - but they definitely take the side of single payer.

NIH would get a tremendous funding bump on many of their initiatives with the implementation of single payer.

The NIH mission is to relieve or diminish the burden of disease. So I'm not clear how a change
in how insurance is paid for or administered would impact this institution. The NIH studies diseases
but it doesn't, at least not in large measure, directly provide health care.

First, I don't want to be seen as beating up on NIH. They are a terrific research institute and routinely return a multiple of what we invest in their research.

But like all research institutes - they need funding and data to do their work. By having a single payer, they feel they would have better control of the data and what needs to be entered in EHRs. They have their own bias - and it tilts toward having the government run medicine - they are unapologetic in their bias. When chatting with researchers, they still feel that their research is unbiased.

But I think it is healthy to be skeptical.

[cammac]

let me state it another way.

In comparison to the United states, the canadian health care system is the New jersey nets. and the united states is the golden state warriors.

Canadians get season tickets to the nets. and 85% of americans get season tickets to the GSW. and the reamining 15% get standing room only to, again, the GSFW.

10% of your population crosses the boarder to to come see the champs regularly and .01% of you get to see us twice a year.

It is also estimated that over 5 million Americans purchase prescriptions in Canada every year with some expensive drugs at a fraction of US drug prices. As SD20 says he is a troll and could care less about people who struggle. The Canadian system is far from perfect in fact on 11 advanced democracies it is rated 9th. Only France and the USA are worse but the spread between 10th and 11th is significant.

Guess what, M....ok I'm going to "try" not to insult you.

So according to your logic, NO American citizen would ever leave this country to seek healthcare elsewhere, right? Since the American healthcare system is so awesome, someone would be crazy to go see a doctor elsewhere, huh.

Let's unpack this for a second. If Americans could hypothetically go to Canada to get healthcare (which we can't since only Canadians have access to it), do you know how many Americans would actually go?

I'll give you a hint because I don't think you're too bright: multiply the 45,000 Canadians that came here for healthcare in 2014 by 7, and you'll get the number of Americans who left the United States to go elsewhere for healthcare in that same year.

Do you know why that is? It's because in the US, your healthcare and access to it is dependent on the amount of money you have (aka a wallet biopsy) and in Canada, healthcare is triaged according to NEED. That means an a-hole who needs a tummy-tuck is going to have to wait after the person who got disfigured in a car accident. If the aforementioned a-hole wants his elective surgery sooner, he can go elsewhere and get it (i.e. the people from Canada who come here for services, which are almost strictly ELECTIVE).

So in your scenario, the U.S. healthcare system is more like the Cavs circa 2008. One good player, and the rest of the team stinks.

5 million + Americans purchase there prescriptions in Canada getting significant savings.

[Ruzious]

Actually, when measuring overall outcomes - the last person you would want to do the studies would be a physician. Reason: outcome bias.

So, I would rather listen to an economist on this one. This study was done by physicians with data that didn't always match up. I think an economist would say there wasn't enough matching data. You don't dismiss your own study, so they say:

I tend to agree statistics can be used to prove anything as was substantiated by the ravings of Nate.
I selected the American study simply because any bias would likely favor a USA position and I don't know the origin of all the studies selected and whether they were done by Physicians or Academics but in this case unlikely a Economist simply because it isn't identifying medicine and outcomes as a cost factor.

The group you choose has been very vocal in their support of single payer... and for quite some time. They have some good arguments - but they definitely take the side of single payer.

NIH would get a tremendous funding bump on many of their initiatives with the implementation of single payer.

Would you please supply backup/link for your comments from both paragraphs.

[stilldropin20]

Anyone who thinks the U.S. Healthcare system is better than the Canadian system is a complete buffoon.

let me state it another way.

In comparison to the United states, the canadian health care system is the New jersey nets. and the united states is the golden state warriors.

Canadians get season tickets to the nets. and 85% of americans get season tickets to the GSW. and the reamining 15% get standing room only to, again, the GSFW.

10% of your population crosses the boarder to to come see the champs regularly and .01% of you get to see us twice a year.

Guess what, M....ok I'm going to "try" not to insult you.

So according to your logic, NO American citizen would ever leave this country to seek healthcare elsewhere, right? Since the American healthcare system is so awesome, someone would be crazy to go see a doctor elsewhere, huh.

Let's unpack this for a second. If Americans could hypothetically go to Canada to get healthcare (which we can't since only Canadians have access to it), do you know how many Americans would actually go?

I'll give you a hint because I don't think you're too bright: multiply the 45,000 Canadians that came here for healthcare in 2014 by 7, and you'll get the number of Americans who left the United States to go elsewhere for healthcare in that same year.

Do you know why that is? It's because in the US, your healthcare and access to it is dependent on the amount of money you have (aka a wallet biopsy) and in Canada, healthcare is triaged according to NEED. That means an a-hole who needs a tummy-tuck is going to have to wait after the person who got disfigured in a car accident. If the aforementioned a-hole wants his elective surgery sooner, he can go elsewhere and get it (i.e. the people from Canada who come here for services, which are almost strictly ELECTIVE).

So in your scenario, the U.S. healthcare system is more like the Cavs circa 2008. One good player, and the rest of the team stinks.

the strippers and other fools that go to mexico or south america to get "botched."

dont worry. they end up back in an office like mine to get their sheeeet righhhhht. we here for 'em!

[stilldropin20]

ok, um,i got sumtin' for yoos guys to git all hot and bothered up about.

EPA is considering mining in natural Salmon "farms" in alaska. dont let them build a mine here. write your congressmen/women!!!!

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/10/politics/bristol-bay-salmon-invs/index.html

[CobraCommander]

ok, um,i got sumtin' for yoos guys to git all hot and bothered up about.

EPA is considering mining in natural Salmon "farms" in alaska. dont let them build a mine here. write your congressmen/women!!!!

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/10/politics/bristol-bay-salmon-invs/index.html

I saw this on CNN...it was hillarious. The CEO of the mine meets with the newly assigned director of the EPA for 30 minutes and the director of the EPA says...”yeah we will consider your mine” after the career people at the EPA said it will KILL the environment and NONE of the people in the area want the mine there. One of the problems with our political system is that the president and congress ASSIGN the head of a department and that HEAD of the department doesnt need to know JACK SHEET about the department thier mandate or anything to get the job...but now he is the boss. Its like if I buy the Spurs and make my girlfriends cousins niece the coach and make Pop listen to her when its time to run plays...but she doesn’t like Pop so she calls all the plays...but we expect to win...its broken man...”DRAIN THE SWAMP”

[Wizardspride]

ok, um,i got sumtin' for yoos guys to git all hot and bothered up about.

EPA is considering mining in natural Salmon "farms" in alaska. dont let them build a mine here. write your congressmen/women!!!!

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/10/politics/bristol-bay-salmon-invs/index.html

I saw this on CNN...it was hillarious. The CEO of the mine meets with the newly assigned director of the EPA for 30 minutes and the director of the EPA says...”yeah we will consider your mine” after the career people at the EPA said it will KILL the environment and NONE of the people in the area want the mine there. One of the problems with our political system is that the president and congress ASSIGN the head of a department and that HEAD of the department doesnt need to know JACK SHEET about the department thier mandate or anything to get the job...but now he is the boss. Its like if I buy the Spurs and make my girlfriends cousins niece the coach and make Pop listen to her when its time to run plays...but she doesn’t like Pop so she calls all the plays...but we expect to win...its broken man...”DRAIN THE SWAMP”

Don't get me started about the EPA in this administration.

It's basically a race to see how many "job killing regulations" (life saving regulations actually) they can get rid of.

But as you say, they're "DRAINING THE SWAMP".

[montestewart]

ok, um,i got sumtin' for yoos guys to git all hot and bothered up about.

EPA is considering mining in natural Salmon "farms" in alaska. dont let them build a mine here. write your congressmen/women!!!!

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/10/politics/bristol-bay-salmon-invs/index.html

I saw this on CNN...it was hillarious. The CEO of the mine meets with the newly assigned director of the EPA for 30 minutes and the director of the EPA says...”yeah we will consider your mine” after the career people at the EPA said it will KILL the environment and NONE of the people in the area want the mine there. One of the problems with our political system is that the president and congress ASSIGN the head of a department and that HEAD of the department doesnt need to know JACK SHEET about the department thier mandate or anything to get the job...but now he is the boss. Its like if I buy the Spurs and make my girlfriends cousins niece the coach and make Pop listen to her when its time to run plays...but she doesn’t like Pop so she calls all the plays...but we expect to win...its broken man...”DRAIN THE SWAMP”

Don't get me started about the EPA in this administration.

IIt's basically a race to see how many "job killing regulations (life saving regulations actually) they can get rid of.

But as you say, they're "DRAINING THE SWAMP".

Nice one, draining the swamp! Start with DC. Then onto Atchafalaya, the Everglades, Big Cypress, Okefenokee, Congaree, Great Dismal, Great Cypress...you can't build a golf course on them, so who needs them? DRAIN THEM, LOCK THEM UP!

[stilldropin20]

I saw this on CNN...it was hillarious. The CEO of the mine meets with the newly assigned director of the EPA for 30 minutes and the director of the EPA says...”yeah we will consider your mine” after the career people at the EPA said it will KILL the environment and NONE of the people in the area want the mine there. One of the problems with our political system is that the president and congress ASSIGN the head of a department and that HEAD of the department doesnt need to know JACK SHEET about the department thier mandate or anything to get the job...but now he is the boss. Its like if I buy the Spurs and make my girlfriends cousins niece the coach and make Pop listen to her when its time to run plays...but she doesn’t like Pop so she calls all the plays...but we expect to win...its broken man...”DRAIN THE SWAMP”

Don't get me started about the EPA in this administration.

IIt's basically a race to see how many "job killing regulations (life saving regulations actually) they can get rid of.

But as you say, they're "DRAINING THE SWAMP".

Nice one, draining the swamp! Start with DC. Then onto Atchafalaya, the Everglades, Big Cypress, Okefenokee, Congaree, Great Dismal, Great Cypress...you can't build a golf course on them, so who needs them? DRAIN THEM, LOCK THEM UP![/quote]

lock her up!!

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

It is also estimated that over 5 million Americans purchase prescriptions in Canada every year with some expensive drugs at a fraction of US drug prices. As SD20 says he is a troll and could care less about people who struggle. The Canadian system is far from perfect in fact on 11 advanced democracies it is rated 9th. Only France and the USA are worse but the spread between 10th and 11th is significant.

Guess what, M....ok I'm going to "try" not to insult you.

So according to your logic, NO American citizen would ever leave this country to seek healthcare elsewhere, right? Since the American healthcare system is so awesome, someone would be crazy to go see a doctor elsewhere, huh.

Let's unpack this for a second. If Americans could hypothetically go to Canada to get healthcare (which we can't since only Canadians have access to it), do you know how many Americans would actually go?

I'll give you a hint because I don't think you're too bright: multiply the 45,000 Canadians that came here for healthcare in 2014 by 7, and you'll get the number of Americans who left the United States to go elsewhere for healthcare in that same year.

Do you know why that is? It's because in the US, your healthcare and access to it is dependent on the amount of money you have (aka a wallet biopsy) and in Canada, healthcare is triaged according to NEED. That means an a-hole who needs a tummy-tuck is going to have to wait after the person who got disfigured in a car accident. If the aforementioned a-hole wants his elective surgery sooner, he can go elsewhere and get it (i.e. the people from Canada who come here for services, which are almost strictly ELECTIVE).

So in your scenario, the U.S. healthcare system is more like the Cavs circa 2008. One good player, and the rest of the team stinks.

5 million + Americans purchase there prescriptions in Canada getting significant savings.

45k is what % of the Canadian people?

45k*7 or 315k is what % of Americans?

I have a silly story. Back in 1980 I used to attend college in Flint, Michigan. Two friends from my school (Kettering, was called GMI back then) and I took a road trip to Detroit; and from there to Windsor, Ontario. Being 19 year olds we checked out the sites. Meaning we probably looked for bars and strip clubs. I'm sure we got something to eat I don't really remember...All I do remember is that around dusk I wasn't driving with my headlights on. In passing a Canadian guy yelled "Turn your lights on ****!".

End of story. (We went on our merry way back to Flint).

The tie-in is if we had gotten in a fight, my friends and I probably would have found out about Canadian healthcare first-hand!

My personal opinion is that healthcare costs are high because of prescriptions. Doctors over-prescribe medicines and medicines cost too much. Too seldom they do not use generic drugs. Too often they over medicate. Having been diagnosed with bipolar disorder many years ago I know about medicines. What I also notice is the reluctance for US doctors (got to disclose I only use the VA medical) to use holistic methods and naturopathic cheap cures. Sunlight, lots of water, walks, aromatherapy, swimming, eating vegetables, limiting sugar intake, practicing mindfulness meditation, breathing exercises, and just improving social skills would keep a lot of prescriptions down. And health care costs down...






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[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

ok, um,i got sumtin' for yoos guys to git all hot and bothered up about.

EPA is considering mining in natural Salmon "farms" in alaska. dont let them build a mine here. write your congressmen/women!!!!

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/10/politics/bristol-bay-salmon-invs/index.html

I was born in Anchorage, Alaska. I love to eat salmon.

I haven't said a thing about politics.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using RealGM mobile app

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

ok, um,i got sumtin' for yoos guys to git all hot and bothered up about.

EPA is considering mining in natural Salmon "farms" in alaska. dont let them build a mine here. write your congressmen/women!!!!

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/10/politics/bristol-bay-salmon-invs/index.html

I saw this on CNN...it was hillarious. The CEO of the mine meets with the newly assigned director of the EPA for 30 minutes and the director of the EPA says...”yeah we will consider your mine” after the career people at the EPA said it will KILL the environment and NONE of the people in the area want the mine there. One of the problems with our political system is that the president and congress ASSIGN the head of a department and that HEAD of the department doesnt need to know JACK SHEET about the department thier mandate or anything to get the job...but now he is the boss. Its like if I buy the Spurs and make my girlfriends cousins niece the coach and make Pop listen to her when its time to run plays...but she doesn’t like Pop so she calls all the plays...but we expect to win...its broken man...”DRAIN THE SWAMP”

Don't get me started about the EPA in this administration.

It's basically a race to see how many "job killing regulations" (life saving regulations actually) they can get rid of.

But as you say, they're "DRAINING THE SWAMP".

It is amazing how this administration doesn't give a damn about the environment and actual lives...

Sent from my Moto G (4) using RealGM mobile app

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I saw this on CNN...it was hillarious. The CEO of the mine meets with the newly assigned director of the EPA for 30 minutes and the director of the EPA says...”yeah we will consider your mine” after the career people at the EPA said it will KILL the environment and NONE of the people in the area want the mine there. One of the problems with our political system is that the president and congress ASSIGN the head of a department and that HEAD of the department doesnt need to know JACK SHEET about the department thier mandate or anything to get the job...but now he is the boss. Its like if I buy the Spurs and make my girlfriends cousins niece the coach and make Pop listen to her when its time to run plays...but she doesn’t like Pop so she calls all the plays...but we expect to win...its broken man...”DRAIN THE SWAMP”

Don't get me started about the EPA in this administration.

IIt's basically a race to see how many "job killing regulations (life saving regulations actually) they can get rid of.

But as you say, they're "DRAINING THE SWAMP".

Nice one, draining the swamp! Start with DC. Then onto Atchafalaya, the Everglades, Big Cypress, Okefenokee, Congaree, Great Dismal, Great Cypress...you can't build a golf course on them, so who needs them? DRAIN THEM, LOCK THEM UP!

Would it be possible to build a golf course and have lots of swamp instead of sand traps?

Don't drain the swamp. Build a golf course around the swamp.

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[stilldropin20]

I saw this on CNN...it was hillarious. The CEO of the mine meets with the newly assigned director of the EPA for 30 minutes and the director of the EPA says...”yeah we will consider your mine” after the career people at the EPA said it will KILL the environment and NONE of the people in the area want the mine there. One of the problems with our political system is that the president and congress ASSIGN the head of a department and that HEAD of the department doesnt need to know JACK SHEET about the department thier mandate or anything to get the job...but now he is the boss. Its like if I buy the Spurs and make my girlfriends cousins niece the coach and make Pop listen to her when its time to run plays...but she doesn’t like Pop so she calls all the plays...but we expect to win...its broken man...”DRAIN THE SWAMP”

Don't get me started about the EPA in this administration.

It's basically a race to see how many "job killing regulations" (life saving regulations actually) they can get rid of.

But as you say, they're "DRAINING THE SWAMP".

It is amazing how this administration doesn't give a damn about the environment and actual lives...

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aside from the fact the fact that we are $20 trillion in debt, im beginnin to think the US is legitimately broke. as in desperate enough to approve such a mine. and more mines. and coal. etc.

in other words. this debt thing might be a real concern. for REAL.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Don't get me started about the EPA in this administration.

It's basically a race to see how many "job killing regulations" (life saving regulations actually) they can get rid of.

But as you say, they're "DRAINING THE SWAMP".

It is amazing how this administration doesn't give a damn about the environment and actual lives...

Sent from my Moto G (4) using RealGM mobile app

aside from the fact the fact that we are $20 trillion in debt, im beginnin to think the US is legitimately broke. as in desperate enough to approve such a mine. and more mines. and coal. etc.

in other words. this debt thing might be a real concern. for REAL.

The US might be in debt but that Elite few who run Congress that are so mega-rich don't give a f***.

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[stilldropin20]

It is amazing how this administration doesn't give a damn about the environment and actual lives...

Sent from my Moto G (4) using RealGM mobile app

aside from the fact the fact that we are $20 trillion in debt, im beginnin to think the US is legitimately broke. as in desperate enough to approve such a mine. and more mines. and coal. etc.

in other words. this debt thing might be a real concern. for REAL.

The US might be in debt but that Elite few who run Congress that are so mega-rich don't give a f***.

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did you watch my banking video I posted a few pages back? the entire thing?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

No I did not I'll try to watch that soon

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