Political Roundtable Part XXX

[nate33]

Also conveniently ignores Republicans overwhelmingly supporting NATO membership for Ukraine in 2014.

The GOP and its lackeys are just shameful.

There has been a massive shift in Republican opinions on NATO expansion in the past 8 years. Most of it thanks to Trump. Republicans of 2022 do not have the same opinions as Republicans of 2014. They have mostly purged the neoCons (Bill Krystal, David Frum, Jennifer Rubin, etc.) from the party. Trump mistakenly courted warmonger John Bolton but that didn't end well, which further pushed the Trump wing of the Republican party away from their previous warmonger tendencies. This doesn't mean that all Republicans are peaceniks or anything, but I'd venture to say that pro-war saber-rattling is now coming from Democrats even more than Republicans.

I mean this is basically nonsense.

Trump never had a position on NATO that wasn't informed by off the cuff talking points and a superficial understanding of its function.

Republicans of 2022 are just Trump bootlickers that follow the GOPs mantra of using the news cycle to take ludicrous and contrarian positions to the Democrats.

I'll pay attention to what the Republicans have to say the second they take an official position or produce original thought on just about anything.

If you don't see that Republicans shifted their stance away from Global Empire and more toward an America First, protectionist stance, I don't know what to tell you. Obviously, it's not all Republicans. The old guard of guys like Lindsey Graham and Mitch McConnell still see things through Cold War glasses, but newer Republicans (and their voters, more specifically) are much more reticent to meddle in nation building in far away lands.

Read on Twitter

Here's another article:

Two-thirds (66%) of voters are concerned about the Russia-Ukraine situation, and three-quarters think what happens in Ukraine matters a great deal (35%) or some (42%) to life in the United States. The poll shows a rare bit of partisan agreement, as at least 7 in 10 voters in every demographic group think the conflict makes a difference at home. Moreover, about one-third of every group thinks it matters a great deal. More Democrats (77%) are worried about the Russia-Ukraine situation than Republicans (61%) or independents (53%).

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

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[payitforward]

Anyone who isn't "worried about" Ukraine (i.e. Putin's empire-building quest) has no understanding whatever of the world. Doesn't know what's going on at all. Pure & simple.

Of course that doesn't imply that there's much for us or anyone to do about Ukraine in particular. All you have to do is look at a map to understand why Russia has pretty much always dominated the Ukraine.

& I say that as someone who has close friends who are Ukrainian. Who live in Kharkov. & are in & out of bomb shelters. Not to mention that my step-son is on Richard Engel's team at NBC & has been in the trenches with Ukrainian soldiers within the last few days. He's in London right now, but he'll be back there I'm sure.

As to "an America First, protectionist stance...", it's an idiotic, self-contradictory notion. It's hard even to imagine that anyone would take it seriously about 100 years after it made any sense at all (if it ever did). Do you think this is like rooting for your team over another team?

Not to mention that supporting that traitor Donald Trump, who is essentially in the pay of Putin, is particularly disgusting right now. He should be arrested -- assuming no one's willing to just take him outside and shoot him. Which is what he deserves -- although, no, I am not calling for that to happen.

[nate33]

Not to mention that supporting that traitor Donald Trump, who is essentially in the pay of Putin, is particularly disgusting right now. He should be arrested -- assuming no one's willing to just take him outside and shoot him. Which is what he deserves -- although, no, I am not calling for that to happen.

Evidence please.

[Wizardspride]

Jesus...

Read on Twitter

?t=2D2JLqjCSLFXxSmRWMpwRg&s=19

[Zonkerbl]

There has been a massive shift in Republican opinions on NATO expansion in the past 8 years. Most of it thanks to Trump. Republicans of 2022 do not have the same opinions as Republicans of 2014. They have mostly purged the neoCons (Bill Krystal, David Frum, Jennifer Rubin, etc.) from the party. Trump mistakenly courted warmonger John Bolton but that didn't end well, which further pushed the Trump wing of the Republican party away from their previous warmonger tendencies. This doesn't mean that all Republicans are peaceniks or anything, but I'd venture to say that pro-war saber-rattling is now coming from Democrats even more than Republicans.

I mean this is basically nonsense.

Trump never had a position on NATO that wasn't informed by off the cuff talking points and a superficial understanding of its function.

Republicans of 2022 are just Trump bootlickers that follow the GOPs mantra of using the news cycle to take ludicrous and contrarian positions to the Democrats.

I'll pay attention to what the Republicans have to say the second they take an official position or produce original thought on just about anything.

If you don't see that Republicans shifted their stance away from Global Empire and more toward an America First, protectionist stance, I don't know what to tell you. Obviously, it's not all Republicans. The old guard of guys like Lindsey Graham and Mitch McConnell still see things through Cold War glasses, but newer Republicans (and their voters, more specifically) are much more reticent to meddle in nation building in far away lands.

Read on Twitter

Here's another article:

Two-thirds (66%) of voters are concerned about the Russia-Ukraine situation, and three-quarters think what happens in Ukraine matters a great deal (35%) or some (42%) to life in the United States. The poll shows a rare bit of partisan agreement, as at least 7 in 10 voters in every demographic group think the conflict makes a difference at home. Moreover, about one-third of every group thinks it matters a great deal. More Democrats (77%) are worried about the Russia-Ukraine situation than Republicans (61%) or independents (53%).

FLIP FLOP

[Zonkerbl]

I think if you don't have oil or are not a good candidate for a gas or oil pipeline to Europe you don't have to worry about Putin. He's not trying to recreate the soviet union, he wants that cash money baby

Again, real simple solution - end our dependence on fossil fuels, a lot of our national security problems would be solved.

[badinage]

I’m not saying it would be wise to do so …

But how feasible would it be to take out Putin in a swift and ideally violent, bloody, and sadistic commando raid?

Again, not looking for a discussion of the potential geopolitical implications or complications of that.

Just — can it be done?

[payitforward]

Not to mention that supporting that traitor Donald Trump, who is essentially in the pay of Putin, is particularly disgusting right now. He should be arrested -- assuming no one's willing to just take him outside and shoot him. Which is what he deserves -- although, no, I am not calling for that to happen.

Evidence please.

Let's start with this: https://fortune.com/2022/02/23/trump-cheers-putin-ukraine-invasion-as-savvy-genius-russia/

You find Trump's stance appealing?

Then read this: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2020/07/10/does-trump-owe-russia-the-supreme-courts-ruling-on-the-presidents-taxes-may-eventually-give-us-answers/

The Brookings Institution not conservative enough for you?

But, my bad, if you want rational discourse with someone, you don't start by belittling his strongest personal attachments. That gets us nowhere. Even if it's true.*

The real problem is that the intellectual tools you want to use to understand the world & action in the world just plain don't do the job. There is no such thing as "America first" as a consistent, functional set of ideas. The opposite, in fact: it's a construct whose only output is the diminution of this country.

* https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/12/21/how-russian-money-helped-save-trumps-business/

[payitforward]

I’m not saying it would be wise to do so …

But how feasible would it be to take out Putin in a swift and ideally violent, bloody, and sadistic commando raid?

Again, not looking for a discussion of the potential geopolitical implications or complications of that.

Just — can it be done?

No. It can't be done. Any more than the equivalent could be launched to "take out" POTUS.

In any case, it would not matter. If he had a fatal heart attack today & died instantly, nothing would change in Russia. Putin is the front man for a large poltico-economic group in Russia. If he was gone, there'd be a struggle to succeed him all of which would take place in that stratum, among those people.

[nate33]

Not to mention that supporting that traitor Donald Trump, who is essentially in the pay of Putin, is particularly disgusting right now. He should be arrested -- assuming no one's willing to just take him outside and shoot him. Which is what he deserves -- although, no, I am not calling for that to happen.

Evidence please.

Let's start with this: https://fortune.com/2022/02/23/trump-cheers-putin-ukraine-invasion-as-savvy-genius-russia/

You find Trump's stance appealing?

Then read this: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2020/07/10/does-trump-owe-russia-the-supreme-courts-ruling-on-the-presidents-taxes-may-eventually-give-us-answers/

The Brookings Institution not conservative enough for you?

But, my bad, if you want rational discourse with someone, you don't start by belittling his strongest personal attachments. That gets us nowhere. Even if it's true.*

The real problem is that the intellectual tools you want to use to understand the world & action in the world just plain don't do the job. There is no such thing as "America first" as a consistent, functional set of ideas. The opposite, in fact: it's a construct whose only output is the diminution of this country.

* https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/12/21/how-russian-money-helped-save-trumps-business/

An investigative probe is not "evidence". And the fact that two top prosecutors just quit the investigation suggests that the investigation is going nowhere.

Trump is the most investigated man in the history of human civilization. He has been investigated by Congress, by every arm of the media, by intelligence agencies (acting illegally), by state prosecutors, and by special prosecutors. The fact that nobody has found anything actionable after 5 years suggests that all these conspiracy theories of Trump colluding with Russia are just made up. But nothing that I say will convince anyone of that. All the liberals on this board will continue to say: "wait until the XXX investigation is complete! Then he will be exposed!"

[Ruzious]

Evidence please.

Let's start with this: https://fortune.com/2022/02/23/trump-cheers-putin-ukraine-invasion-as-savvy-genius-russia/

You find Trump's stance appealing?

Then read this: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2020/07/10/does-trump-owe-russia-the-supreme-courts-ruling-on-the-presidents-taxes-may-eventually-give-us-answers/

The Brookings Institution not conservative enough for you?

But, my bad, if you want rational discourse with someone, you don't start by belittling his strongest personal attachments. That gets us nowhere. Even if it's true.*

The real problem is that the intellectual tools you want to use to understand the world & action in the world just plain don't do the job. There is no such thing as "America first" as a consistent, functional set of ideas. The opposite, in fact: it's a construct whose only output is the diminution of this country.

* https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/12/21/how-russian-money-helped-save-trumps-business/

An investigative probe is not "evidence". And the fact that two top prosecutors just quit the investigation suggests that the investigation is going nowhere.

Trump is the most investigated man in the history of human civilization. He has been investigated by Congress, by every arm of the media, by intelligence agencies (acting illegally), by state prosecutors, and by special prosecutors. The fact that nobody has found anything actionable after 5 years suggests that all these conspiracy theories of Trump colluding with Russia are just made up. But nothing that I say will convince anyone of that. All the liberals on this board will continue to say: "wait until the XXX investigation is complete! Then he will be exposed!"

He's also sued more people than anyone in the history of mankind and probably gotten away - so far - with more than almost anybody in history. Nobody has abused the court system and legal system more than he has. He is anything... but a legitimate martyr, and it's ludicrous to make him out as such.

[pancakes3]

i don't think Trump is being strongarmed by Russia. i think he's just dumb.

[pancakes3]

someone explain to me how America First isolationism meshes with the rhetoric that Biden is weak and that Trump would have never let this happen.

[Ruzious]

i don't think Trump is being strongarmed by Russia. i think he's just dumb.

And the most narcissistic person that ever walked the earth.

[Zonkerbl]

I don't think Trump is being paid by Putin, Putin is too smart for that. Just dangle some real estate deals, stroke his ego, say nasty things about Democrats, Trump'll do whatever you want. He's gullible and easy to manipulate, and old and demented to boot. Remember he never accuses Biden of anything he's not guilty of himself, and he's been saying Biden is senile.

Also, all the crimes he's being investigated for are rich people crimes - nobody prosecutes them because they're impossible to prove, by design. He's "innocent" in the same way all plutocrats are - he's above the law, for the category of crimes he commits. If he was a pedophile or something it'd be a different story. But even Matt Gaetz is wealthy enough to beat a statutory rape charge, so what makes you think Trump is any more vulnerable.

Don't forget that he was flat out guilty of selling out Ukraine for his own personal gain, the corrupt Republican senators just refused to vote consistently with the facts. That doesn't make him innocent, that makes him the beneficiary of corruption.

[Zonkerbl]

Read on Twitter

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[closg00]

i don't think Trump is being strongarmed by Russia. i think he's just dumb.

That he is dumb is given. I believe there's a decent chance that Putin does have compromising information on Trump based on Trump taking Putin's side over his own country and groveling at Helsinki.

[Pointgod]

Read on Twitter

[queridiculo]

An investigative probe is not "evidence". And the fact that two top prosecutors just quit the investigation suggests that the investigation is going nowhere.

Trump is the most investigated man in the history of human civilization. He has been investigated by Congress, by every arm of the media, by intelligence agencies (acting illegally), by state prosecutors, and by special prosecutors. The fact that nobody has found anything actionable after 5 years suggests that all these conspiracy theories of Trump colluding with Russia are just made up. But nothing that I say will convince anyone of that. All the liberals on this board will continue to say: "wait until the XXX investigation is complete! Then he will be exposed!"

Pursuit of convictions, or lack thereof is neither proof of innocence nor is it proof of guilt.

The idea, that there's a cabal of politically motivated actors out to get Trump is laughable at best though.

Laughable, or sad rather, is the GOPs refusal to condemn Putin's actions.

In fact, it's unbecoming and a betrayal of American values and everything Republicans have purported to stand for.

It's embarrassing quite frankly, and watching the GOP implicitly calling Democrats and liberal policies the real enemies of the United States is bordering on treason.