Political Roundtable Part XIX

[dckingsfan]

Well MAGA policies on tariffs are already facing countervailing duties from China.
The major target is pork which will have a 25% duty and represents 1.2 Billion in exports by the USA and represents 28.6% of the USA's 4.2 Billion of pork exports. As TPP comes into effect it is likely that Japan will also slap duties on USA pork. If Trump follows through with his tariffs against China the agricultural sector will get hurt the most. The next on the list will likely be soya beans which has 22.9 billion in USA exports. No trade wars are not easy to win and countries target products which will hurt Trump voters the most. The major causes of the great depression were unfettered economic policy, deregulation of banks and high tariffs. Are you beginning to see a pattern?

Let the trade wars begin... watch Trump ban all Chinese products... hmmm, I wonder who gets hurt worse.

[dckingsfan]

Public unions and politicians have "conspired" to ensure that public employees have safe workplaces, liveable wages, access to quality healthcare, and a secure retirement. Those are good things that we all should want for ourselves and each other.

The problem, as you often point out, is that these things are costly. I think we should focus our attention and energy on how we pay for these things...and not on blaming unions and workers for wanting and needing them.

Agree and disagree. Agreed that we want a good working environment and wages. Disagree that those wages should outstrip what we can pay. Unions will always want (and they should) more than an employeer can afford. It is on the employer to pay only what they can afford. And local officials have failed us in that endeavor - absolutely and utterly in their conspiracy. THAT IS REALLY BAD and we should be PISSED OFF and not good with a bad situation.

If we didn't have pensions - if we paid them like most public employees with 401Ks that are paid in that year so that there can be no finagling, then we would have been fine. But we didn't and there was a conspiracy to pay more and kick the bill down the road.

Its all well to say that paying a living wage is fine. Not so much when you bankrupt a public entity. Then those same folks are angered when the local programs are cut. When roads aren't repaired, schools student to teacher ratios go up, higher ed funding is cut, etc.

So, all good with Scott Walker and what he did...

I think you should look at the full extent of Scott Walkers policies before you praise him!
Just take one he has made Wisconsin a "Right to Work" State. This drives down average wages in the State that also effects the tax base negatively. Any idiot can cut costs without thought on how it affects others all you have to do is look at Kansas and the Brownback experiment.

cammac, three things here. First, driving down state wages has a positive effect on the net (revenue vs. outlay), please don't believe that gibberish. Two, Walker didn't do what the idiots in Kansas did, quite the opposite. Three, you know I am not for driving down the tax base - we have no choice at this point but to increase taxes - but that won't get most states out of their hole, they are buried by medicade, pension obligations and prisons.

Defending big public unions and what they have done to many (not all) states is really silly, IMO. In many cases they are as evil as the policies put in place by the Rs. And that should hurt Ds - they should be introspective on this instead of blindly supporting those public unions with anecdotal information.

[dckingsfan]

Agree and disagree. Agreed that we want a good working environment and wages. Disagree that those wages should outstrip what we can pay. Unions will always want (and they should) more than an employeer can afford. It is on the employer to pay only what they can afford. And local officials have failed us in that endeavor - absolutely and utterly in their conspiracy. THAT IS REALLY BAD and we should be PISSED OFF and not good with a bad situation.

If we didn't have pensions - if we paid them like most public employees with 401Ks that are paid in that year so that there can be no finagling, then we would have been fine. But we didn't and there was a conspiracy to pay more and kick the bill down the road.

Its all well to say that paying a living wage is fine. Not so much when you bankrupt a public entity. Then those same folks are angered when the local programs are cut. When roads aren't repaired, schools student to teacher ratios go up, higher ed funding is cut, etc.

So, all good with Scott Walker and what he did...

The following is a front page story in today's Washington Post. Sadly, this is the kind of thing that can happen when we fail to adequately pay--and respect--public employees...and demean and weaken their unions.

‘It just hurts my heart’: Low pay, big classes are the plight of Oklahoma teachers

TULSA — For the superintendent of this city’s public schools, the signs that her teachers are struggling can be found everywhere.

At a local restaurant, it was a teacher who served Deborah Gist recently. At the Reasor’s grocery, there’s sometimes a teacher behind the register. And then there was the Uber that the school district chief hailed to catch an early-morning flight — a teacher sat behind the wheel, trying to earn some money before heading to the classroom. There was a stack of student journals on the passenger seat.

“It’s just so wrong that it just hurts my heart,” said Gist, who has been superintendent since 2015.

Oklahoma’s teachers are among the nation’s lowest paid, and ­despite the governor and lawmakers approving a $6,100 raise this week, educators pledge to walk out Monday if their full demands — including reversal of budget cuts — are not met. For a decade, little has been done to address the plight of the state’s teachers. It is a situation that has forced many to take second jobs, rely on food pantries and donate their plasma to pay the bills.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/it-just-hurts-my-heart-low-pay-big-classes-are-the-plight-of-oklahoma-teachers/2018/03/30/e5e10eb8-2c88-11e8-b0b0-f706877db618_story.html?utm_term=.90ca89814a59

Hmmm, wonder why that happened? Notice that line with unfunded liabilities? Guess what, they paid teachers in the past and then kicked the ball down the road - and now this generation of teacher isn't getting paid. This is what is coming in most every state.

Also, just shows that Rs can be really stupid at a state and local level as well. BTW, Oklahoma ranks the 23rd out of the 50 states - just think how those states below them are going to do...

https://www.statedatalab.org/state_data_and_comparisons/detail/oklahoma

[cammac]

Agree and disagree. Agreed that we want a good working environment and wages. Disagree that those wages should outstrip what we can pay. Unions will always want (and they should) more than an employeer can afford. It is on the employer to pay only what they can afford. And local officials have failed us in that endeavor - absolutely and utterly in their conspiracy. THAT IS REALLY BAD and we should be PISSED OFF and not good with a bad situation.

If we didn't have pensions - if we paid them like most public employees with 401Ks that are paid in that year so that there can be no finagling, then we would have been fine. But we didn't and there was a conspiracy to pay more and kick the bill down the road.

Its all well to say that paying a living wage is fine. Not so much when you bankrupt a public entity. Then those same folks are angered when the local programs are cut. When roads aren't repaired, schools student to teacher ratios go up, higher ed funding is cut, etc.

So, all good with Scott Walker and what he did...

I think you should look at the full extent of Scott Walkers policies before you praise him!
Just take one he has made Wisconsin a "Right to Work" State. This drives down average wages in the State that also effects the tax base negatively. Any idiot can cut costs without thought on how it affects others all you have to do is look at Kansas and the Brownback experiment.

cammac, three things here. First, driving down state wages has a positive effect on the net (revenue vs. outlay), please don't believe that gibberish. Two, Walker didn't do what the idiots in Kansas did, quite the opposite. Three, you know I am not for driving down the tax base - we have no choice at this point but to increase taxes - but that won't get most states out of their hole, they are buried by medicade, pension obligations and prisons.

Defending big public unions and what they have done to many (not all) states is really silly, IMO. In many cases they are as evil as the policies put in place by the Rs. And that should hurt Ds - they should be introspective on this instead of blindly supporting those public unions with anecdotal information.

While I'm a businessman I do believe in collective bargaining and yes sometimes employees get excessive wages and programs. But in 95% of the cases it is usually do to the employer rather than the employee. Again one of the major problems is that without a universal system of health care and restructuring the drivers (which are mostly corporate or professional based) will costs moderate. In pensions believe that both employee and employer should be contributing but in large organizations like government workers they should have full control of the pensions and hire professionals to run it. If they are properly run they will prosper if not that's life. Link shows returns of Ontario Teachers.

You also need to look at the 2 Billion promised Foxxcom to locate s plant in Ryans District. The fortunate thing is that will never happen. Prison costs can be reduced easily by less people being incarcerated USA has the highest incarceration rate in the world.

https://www.otpp.com/investments/performance/benchmarks

[Wizardspride]

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[dckingsfan]

While I'm a businessman I do believe in collective bargaining and yes sometimes employees get excessive wages and programs. But in 95% of the cases it is usually do to the employer rather than the employee. Again one of the major problems is that without a universal system of health care and restructuring the drivers (which are mostly corporate or professional based) will costs moderate. In pensions believe that both employee and employer should be contributing but in large organizations like government workers they should have full control of the pensions and hire professionals to run it. If they are properly run they will prosper if not that's life. Link shows returns of Ontario Teachers.

You also need to look at the 2 Billion promised Foxxcom to locate s plant in Ryans District. The fortunate thing is that will never happen. Prison costs can be reduced easily by less people being incarcerated USA has the highest incarceration rate in the world.

https://www.otpp.com/investments/performance/benchmarks

Collective bargaining is good. But in the case of public employ negotiations, many times it was, "we will campaign for you in exchange for better remuneration". That is a bad situation. Especially when you tie in a pensions where the employer promises much more than they can deliver.

Public pensions should go the way of the dodo bird. The money should be exchanged at the time of services rendered and not kicked down the hall - that has proven to be a terrible idea.

In this case it was both the unions and the politicians that screwed the pooch for the country.

[Pointgod]

Looks like teachers unions are finally realizing that Republican policies are horrible and full of ****. Oklahoma and Kentcuky are two states that went for Trump. I wonder if the Democrats canpaign as the pro union pro, labor party in red states. Maybe they're finally getting the hint that Republicans are never the better option.

[JWizmentality]

Looks like teachers unions are finally realizing that Republican policies are horrible and full of ****. Oklahoma and Kentcuky are two states that went for Trump. I wonder if the Democrats canpaign as the pro union pro, labor party in red states. Maybe they're finally getting the hint that Republicans are never the better option.

I dunno. I'm skeptical. Higher education is a liberal bastion. These teacher are probably mostly democrats. Conservatives are scared of books.

[dckingsfan]

So which is the first state to go under with unfunded liabilities? Illinois?

Illinois is in a dire situation with less than 36 cents set aside to pay for every dollar pension benefits promised. The largest portion of the $138.4 billion of unfunded pension liability comes from the Teachers' Retirement System which is $78.9 billion underfunded.

Guessing that the Illinois Democrats will not lead us to the promised land?

[dckingsfan]

Did someone mention Kansas?

The Kansas Public Employee Retirement System is considered to be in a "critical" state with less than 66 cents set aside to pay for every dollar of pension benefits promised. Future taxpayers of the state, cities, counties and school districts will be responsible for funding the $9.2 billion of pension benefits promised but not funded.

Guess it won't be the Republicans from Kansas?

[dckingsfan]

As the state is struggling to pay pension costs and balance the budget, new statistics show that the top 10 retired state employees are all receiving more than $225,000 per year from the state.

Nearly 1,400 retirees are receiving more than $100,000 per year — a jump from only 378 retirees who were receiving more than $100,000 in 2010, according to statistics from the state comptroller’s office.

http://www.courant.com/politics/hc-pol-top-10-pensions-growing-20180201-story.html

Guess we can't go with Connecticut's great liberal bastion of goodness... these pension things are terrific

[JWizmentality]

Congrats America! You are a Banana Republic.

Watch on YouTube

[Wizardspride]

Congrats America! You are a Banana Republic.

Watch on YouTube

If you're in the DC area WJLA is a Sinclair station.

[FAH1223]

Congrats America! You are a Banana Republic.

Watch on YouTube

If you're in the DC area WJLA is a Sinclair station.

I have a friend who works there and at Circa which is also Sinclair.

Imagine if you time transported officials of Soviet propaganda and news bureaucrats from the 1960's and made them watch this particular bit from Sinclair stations or CNN, FOX, MSNBC, etc.

They would be furiously taking notes as this would be an insight into the most advanced propaganda techniques and brainwashing they have ever seen or read about.

Imagine if these techniques were implemented in the 1960's, thats a point of departure there, and the Soviet Union would probably be around today.

If you can convince residents of some of these backwater areas that they live in the greatest country in history, with the richest advanced healthcare and infrastructure, you can convince a Soviet citizen in the 80's that everything is fine.

Judging by the high number of poor whites on Medicaid and food stamps that have bought into the Koch funded Tea Party politics that government is too big and that they need to cut taxes further and cut off the same benefits that they depend on... then
you can convince people that the earth is flat and that its supported on the back of a giant turtle.

[Zonkerbl]

So... my Grandfather was a union organizer and a member of the American Communist Party.

Unions in Europe are political and represent classes. That's why you have a Labour Party in the UK.

Unions in the United States are purely economic. During the industrial revolution there were a lot of industries whose optimal technology enjoyed increasing returns to scale, meaning the optimal size of the factory is pretty large, so you employ a lot of workers, and because you're so large you get monopoly rents. So unions were a way of forcing the owners of the factory to share some of their monopoly rents with the workers. Despite not being political in purpose, the thing about monopoly rents is they very quickly convert into payments to lobbyists to preserve the rent, so you end up becoming political. So unions evolved into political representation for blue collar laborers.

Now we have globalization, which in theory is a very good thing - let China build all the cheap things and we'll build all the high tech things, we'll have a more tech-intensive economy and the country will make more money. And this happened. The problem is, globalization eroded all the monopoly profits that were being shared with the unions. The unions collapsed and all of a sudden blue collar workers didn't have representation any more, or jobs, or prospects for the future. The billionaires fill the vacuum and pass tax laws that seize money from the poor and hand it over to the rich. So all the benefits of globalization go to the billionaires. Not me - I'm pretty fricking wealthy (compared to my parents anyway) but my taxes are going up next year.

So as an economist I look at the political outcome of globalization and I wonder if it was worth being right. Our gini coefficients are the worst among developed countries.

[Wizardspride]

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.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Congrats America! You are a Banana Republic.

Watch on YouTube

If you're in the DC area WJLA is a Sinclair station.

I have a friend who works there and at Circa which is also Sinclair.

Imagine if you time transported officials of Soviet propaganda and news bureaucrats from the 1960's and made them watch this particular bit from Sinclair stations or CNN, FOX, MSNBC, etc.

They would be furiously taking notes as this would be an insight into the most advanced propaganda techniques and brainwashing they have ever seen or read about.

Imagine if these techniques were implemented in the 1960's, thats a point of departure there, and the Soviet Union would probably be around today.

If you can convince residents of some of these backwater areas that they live in the greatest country in history, with the richest advanced healthcare and infrastructure, you can convince a Soviet citizen in the 80's that everything is fine.

Judging by the high number of poor whites on Medicaid and food stamps that have bought into the Koch funded Tea Party politics that government is too big and that they need to cut taxes further and cut off the same benefits that they depend on... then
you can convince people that the earth is flat and that its supported on the back of a giant turtle.

You mean there is no giant turtle? Aww, man, what other lies have I been told?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

So... my Grandfather was a union organizer and a member of the American Communist Party.

Unions in Europe are political and represent classes. That's why you have a Labour Party in the UK.

Unions in the United States are purely economic. During the industrial revolution there were a lot of industries whose optimal technology enjoyed increasing returns to scale, meaning the optimal size of the factory is pretty large, so you employ a lot of workers, and because you're so large you get monopoly rents. So unions were a way of forcing the owners of the factory to share some of their monopoly rents with the workers. Despite not being political in purpose, the thing about monopoly rents is they very quickly convert into payments to lobbyists to preserve the rent, so you end up becoming political. So unions evolved into political representation for blue collar laborers.

Now we have globalization, which in theory is a very good thing - let China build all the cheap things and we'll build all the high tech things, we'll have a more tech-intensive economy and the country will make more money. And this happened. The problem is, globalization eroded all the monopoly profits that were being shared with the unions. The unions collapsed and all of a sudden blue collar workers didn't have representation any more, or jobs, or prospects for the future. The billionaires fill the vacuum and pass tax laws that seize money from the poor and hand it over to the rich. So all the benefits of globalization go to the billionaires. Not me - I'm pretty fricking wealthy (compared to my parents anyway) but my taxes are going up next year.

So as an economist I look at the political outcome of globalization and I wonder if it was worth being right. Our gini coefficients are the worst among developed countries.

When I read this I thought:

1. unions- Teamsters-Mafia....
2. Gini coefficient (?)-jeanie-Barbara Eden...



Both of my grandpas died without playing a role in either of my parents lives. My mom's parents were both gone by the time she was 14. My dad was raised by his grandparents. I've been told dad's dad was that he was so mean that he would walk on one side of the street and people would avoid him by walking on the other side of the street. Mom's dad was an alcoholic but he could fix cars for white people. My dad's grandfather who I actually remember was a good man. Way back in the twenties and thirties he was a bootlegger.

This trade is not about me it's about politics.

Zonker being an economist must really be something special. I appreciate what you wrote I just felt compelled to add nothing but trivia and stream of consciousness.

I can go back to not visiting this thread because it's totally over my head.

[Wizardspride]

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[queridiculo]

So as an economist I look at the political outcome of globalization and I wonder if it was worth being right. Our gini coefficients are the worst among developed countries.

It's quite shocking where the USA ranks in comparison to other western nations.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2172rank.html