Political Roundtable Part XXIX

[Wizardspride]

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[Zonkerbl]

Trump supporters aren't *stupid* - they're *ignorant.* It's an important distinction, and a lot of people confuse the two. There are lots of smart rednecks who run businesses and live successful, functional lives, getting along well with their white neighbors, who still are blissfully unaware of things they choose to ignore. Calling Trump supporters stupid excuses them for their intentional blindness. They're not dumb, they're just too full of hate to make good choices.

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[FAH1223]

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[Wizardspride]

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[Zonkerbl]

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GOP created this monster. They could very easily uncreate it. Are they sure this is what they want?

First victims of Communist violence were the tzars. Then they went after the Trotskyists, the moderate revolutionaries. Then in the purges of 37 they went after each other. Stalin went crazy with paranoia and started murdering people in his inner circle. That's where this is going.

[Ruzious]

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It's hard to believe that that many people are flat-out stupid, so it's gotta be something more than stupidity.

[Wizardspride]

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[payitforward]

GOP created this monster. They could very easily uncreate it. Are they sure this is what they want?

First victims of Communist violence were the tzars. Then they went after the Trotskyists, the moderate revolutionaries. Then in the purges of 37 they went after each other. Stalin went crazy with paranoia and started murdering getting rid of people in his inner circle. That's where this is going.

Do you think there's any chance at all that they could get the order wrong? Start with the inner circle...?

[Silvie Lysandra]

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It's hard to believe that that many people are flat-out stupid, so it's gotta be something more than stupidity.

The Republican Party is a fascist party. It's time to utilize the mailed fist of state against it, up to and including outlawing the party entirely.

Pledging allegiance to "conservatism" should be seen as pledging allegiance to Daesh or Al Qaeda, and treated accordingly.

[dckingsfan]

The Republican Party is a fascist party. It's time to utilize the mailed fist of state against it, up to and including outlawing the party entirely.

Pledging allegiance to "conservatism" should be seen as pledging allegiance to Daesh or Al Qaeda, and treated accordingly.

The problem is that the Republican Party now is not a "liberal conservatism bastion".

Liberal conservatism incorporates the classical liberal view of minimal government intervention in the economy. Individuals should be free to participate in the market and generate wealth without government interference. However, individuals cannot be thoroughly depended on to act responsibly in other spheres of life, therefore liberal conservatives believe that a strong state is necessary to ensure law and order and social institutions are needed to nurture a sense of duty and responsibility to the nation. Liberal conservatism is a variant of conservatism that is strongly influenced by liberal stances.

The Republican Party (IMO) currently has a large number of white nationalists embedded in its current state and amplified by a serial lying demagogue. I don't think that many Rs are conservatives or liberal conservatives.

And therein lies the problem. The liberal conservative view by itself isn't what is wrong.

[Silvie Lysandra]

The Republican Party (IMO) currently has a large number of white nationalists embedded in its current state and amplified by a serial lying demagogue. I don't think that many Rs are conservatives or liberal conservatives.

And therein lies the problem. The liberal conservative view by itself isn't what is wrong.

The thing is that the "liberal conservatives" aligned with the fascists and white nationalists thinking that they could control them, the same mistake the DNVP and the traditional German right made. The "good conservatives" couldn't win without the Southern Strategy, and after a while they couldn't win with it. Instead of admitting defeat, they doubled down, amplified the rhetoric, and now their "liberal oonservative" values have been swept aside by the fascism they encouraged.

We can forgive the Rick Wilsons and Steve Schmidts and Cindy McCains of the world, especially given that they did turn when they saw what their political project became. And like how we rehabilitated Manstein and Guderian, we may need to give a few undeserved passes to elements of the American Right for the sake of expediency. But we cannot forget that they helped sow the seeds for modern fascism, and will have to concede that their ideology has failed and what remaining role they have is to act as a check on the modern Left (which has some worrying elements at this point as well)

[dckingsfan]

The Republican Party (IMO) currently has a large number of white nationalists embedded in its current state and amplified by a serial lying demagogue. I don't think that many Rs are conservatives or liberal conservatives.

And therein lies the problem. The liberal conservative view by itself isn't what is wrong.

The thing is that the "liberal conservatives" aligned with the fascists and white nationalists thinking that they could control them, the same mistake the DNVP and the traditional German right made. The "good conservatives" couldn't win without the Southern Strategy, and after a while they couldn't win with it. Instead of admitting defeat, they doubled down, amplified the rhetoric, and now their "liberal oonservative" values have been swept aside by the fascism they encouraged.

We can forgive the Rick Wilsons and Steve Schmidts and Cindy McCains of the world, especially given that they did turn when they saw what their political project became. And like how we rehabilitated Manstein and Guderian, we may need to give a few undeserved passes to elements of the American Right for the sake of expediency. But we cannot forget that they helped sow the seeds for modern fascism, and will have to concede that their ideology has failed and what remaining role they have is to act as a check on the modern Left (which has some worrying elements at this point as well)

Very well said. And one that many Rs can wrap their heads around. As soon as they saw Trump, they should have run the other direction. Instead, many embraced him. And we can't forget that.

But the liberal conservative platform itself isn't the problem. It is that the Rs as they are currently constituted are anything but.

Bad players can arise from the left or right when winning >> doing the right thing.

[Silvie Lysandra]

But the liberal conservative platform itself isn't the problem.

I agree from a theoretical, academic perspective. The problem is that you actually do have to throw the baby out with the bathwater now that the bathwater is a radioactive Superfund site. So you can't really compartmentalize it into "well the ideology isn't the problem, per se" even though I think guys like Wilson have valuable things to say. But the point is that they have to say them in a position of submission to the liberal-left coalition, that their job is no longer to advocate for a discrete conservative political camp, but as a moderating force on progressive liberals.

Basically they are now Biden Republicans that will be loyal Democratic partisans but will be a counterweight to the influence of Bernie and AOC. That's all they can hope for, and that's all they deserve.

[dckingsfan]

But the liberal conservative platform itself isn't the problem.

I agree from a theoretical, academic perspective. The problem is that you actually do have to throw the baby out with the bathwater now that the bathwater is a radioactive Superfund site. So you can't really compartmentalize it into "well the ideology isn't the problem, per se" even though I think guys like Wilson have valuable things to say. But the point is that they have to say them in a position of submission to the liberal-left coalition, that their job is no longer to advocate for a discrete conservative political camp, but as a moderating force on progressive liberals.

Basically they are now Biden Republicans that will be loyal Democratic partisans but will be a counterweight to the influence of Bernie and AOC. That's all they can hope for, and that's all they deserve.

An interesting perspective... It is going to be fascinating to watch this play out.

[Zonkerbl]

IMHO as a Ph.D. economist, "liberal conservatism" was *never* right. Modern macroeconomic neoclassical theory, which I guess is where neocons got their "government can't do anything to affect recessions so it might as well not exist" horsecrap is just not true. All this garbage about "all recessions are unpredictably caused by technological change." Even the newer neoliberal consensus, that the goal is to privatize as much as possible and eliminate the obstacles government presents to investment, is wrong. The private sector needs the government, to invest in public infrastructure, to cure market failures, to enforce rules industries agree to hold themselves to, etc.

So yeah if the Conservative wing of the party wants to be the side that represents good economics, they need to stop pushing self serving garbage that lets them justify slashing tax revenue by trillions of dollars without replacing it. "Oh we're just getting rid of evil government, der de der."

Anyway it's all so dishonest. The "conservative" side of the party is "I got mine and screw y'all" and the liberal side is "I have a guillotine here that says you're wrong, you better share some of that crap." Neither side actually cares about economics, it's all about who can grab the most cookies out of the cookie jar each year.

[verbal8]

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GOP created this monster. They could very easily uncreate it. Are they sure this is what they want?

First victims of Communist violence were the tzars. Then they went after the Trotskyists, the moderate revolutionaries. Then in the purges of 37 they went after each other. Stalin went crazy with paranoia and started murdering people in his inner circle. That's where this is going.

I think the Trump implosion probably starts with the inner circle or very close to it. With Trump's past failures, he always managed to find something to move on to. Short of fleeing the country, it is hard to see a scenario where Trump can really reset. With a huge loss of money, influence and power it is easy to see his cronies turning on each other.

[Wizardspride]

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