Nick Young traded to Clippers/McGee to Denver/Nene to DC

[tontoz]

McGee had big games here too. He had 21/15 against the Spurs in only 29 minutes, 24/13 against the Heat, 23/18 against Philly with 5 blocks.

He can score, get rebounds and block shots but he is clueless and soft. That isn't going to change and those are two pretty big flaws for a center. He can get away with his low IQ on offense but on defense he has to be thinking all the time since the center spot is the teams defensive anchor. Making good decisions quickly isn't part of the McGee package.

[miller31time]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mcgeeja01.html

McGee looks and acts different. Most people are visual. A lot of people are haters, I think because of the way McGee looks when he makes blunders.

I am glad the way the Wizards are playing now with Nene. I am also hopeful McGee can have a whole lot more games like yesterday. Faried is a rookie and together with McGee, the two gathered 30 rebounds against Pau Gasol and with Andrew Bynum playing 41 minutes.

One thing few haters realize is that McGee is a far better rebounder than Nene or Seraphin.

McGee as a Denver Nugget has averaged 18.0 points and 10 rebounds per-36 minutes, on .612 eFG%

His Denver PER is 20.5.

Trust me when I say this: Denver is very, very happy with the trade.

I think Denver has mixed feelings, just like we did. It's obvious that McGee has talent and puts up good numbers; he did that here too. His PER here was 19.6 and we still didn't have much problem dealing him for someone more competent.

As tontoz said, it's hard to win consistently when the focal point of your team's defense is as weak as McGee is (both literally and figuratively). Offensively, he hasn't really developed one go-to move yet. He's still a mixed bag of unorthodox up-and-unders and contortions.

We'll see what they choose to do with him this off-season but I'm not so sure they're as enamored with him as you say they are. I feel like he'd be starting over Kosta Koufos if that were the case.

[WizarDynasty]

IT LOOKS LIKE McGee has proven us all wrong. I always thought McGee and Wall were both starters on a playoff team.
McGee's unlimited upside was our only real hope for a championship because in the back our minds, we could imagine him one day dominating deep in the playoffs.
We can't imagine Nene ever dominating deep in the playoffs because his body is already in physical decline and even at his peak, he never carried his team to a playoff series win. He contributed but was never the difference maker. We see that McGee is showing that he is actually a difference maker in the playoffs and now that hope is gone. Kind of depressing.
Seraphin offers hope us some hope he doesn't have nearly the upside and dominance on both sides of the ball that McGee shows when he is playing at his best. When McGee is playing at his best, he is way better than Serahin or Nene playing at their best and that difference is what gave us hope at potential championship. Yes he was inconsistent, but we know the ability was there. McGee is a superstar when he is on, Seraphin and Nene are merely above average players when they are on. the chance to ever get a superstar big is nil to none in this league and we had one that was an extremely inconsistent "superstar". Depressing to say the least on the downgrade in terms of talent we now have the bigman position versus what we had before. We have more stability and IQ, but no superstar potential in our bigman line up. No real hope anymore of big that can dominate any player in the league when he is ON.

[miller31time]

There's a topic on the PC Board about McGee vs. Nene. A longtime respected poster "Doctor MJ" made two very good posts on the comparison. Thought I'd re-post them here...

Post 1 (in response)

McGee is a serious contender for being the worst player in the league. OP is crazy.

Actually with that comment you look like the crazier one, Mcgee has the potential to be better, he isnt better now.

You'd think so based on McGee's box score stats, but everyone knows that McGee is about the lowest BBIQ guy in the league, and +/- stats say he's horrible.

For example, 1-year APM this year is -11.45, which ranks him as 3rd worst in the entire league among players with significant minutes, and offensive vs defensive breakdowns actually tend to say he's worse on defense than on offense.

Now, there are obviously worse players not getting the minutes so "worst player in the league" is clear hyperbole, but it's entirely possible that McGee is the most counterproductive rotation player in the league.

Post 2 (follow-up)

Oh, and let me get more specific. We actually have 4 factor breakdowns of +/- impact for players now.

On defense, McGee is actually neutral on things like effecitve FG% allowed and turnovers created. Where McGee is absolutely terrible is on defensive rebounding.

Let me be very clear: Not on ALL rebounding, but defensive rebounding.

This is interesting because Nene is someone who typically does well by +/- stats, and you know what his calling card is based on 4 factor analysis? Great defensive rebounding.

Based on the City's study over the past 2.5 years, Nene had the best defensive rebounding rating in the league among big minute players at -1.79. (Negative here is a good thing because it represents LESS offensive rebounding)

McGee? He's got a +2.37, the WORST big minute rating in the league.

It's actually incredible to see the results be so extreme in difference in the same category between two guys traded for each other.

Now here's the thing. I know people are going to say: But their individual defensive rebounding numbers are similar! The thing is, what makes a great defensive rebounder isn't so much his ability to personally get defensive rebounds, but his ability to rebound in a team context. That means things like focusing first on boxing your man out so that he can NOT get the rebound. You play the percentages, and if everyone on your team is play smart team rebounding, then the odds that one of you gets the rebound goes way up.

At any point it's possible to increase your personal defensive rebounding numbers by ignoring the fundamentals and crashing the boards, but this is counterproductive for the team.

It's a very different thing on offense where unless you do something to break the defense's team rebounding, you're going to lose the rebounding battle. Hence, offensive rebounding is something young, athletic, clueless bigs can become solid in almost on instinct, whereas defensive rebounding is in the veteran's roundhouse.

Thought he added a lot to the discussion.

[Induveca]

McGee was awful in DC due to the combination of coaches, front office, lack of discipline and his perosonality. With Karl/increased media spotlight/professional front office and consistent expectations of success by the Denver fanbase and organization it's only logical McGee should improve.

It just wasn't going to happen in DC. It was obvious.

Success in Denver doesn't equate to success in DC. And vice versa, completely different ecosystems.

Just depends on the situation. I disliked McGee on the Wiz, not as a person.....I hope he blows up but i'm not foolish enough to believe it would have happened here. We needed a successful veteran with playoff experience.

It could be a win win for both teams. Let's revisit in December.

[DCZards]

quote="7-Day Dray"]

If I were a GM I would fire George Karl for sitting McGee this series should he do so and cause them to lose. Karl is a lot like Flip was at Minnesota. Almost NEVER gets out of the first round.

So I get it...any coach that doesn't play McGee big minutes should be fired. So I guess Karl's coaching had nothing to do with Denver's win last night...other than the fact that he gave McGee more playing time. It's all about Javale obviously.

Faired has been awesome. But he doesn't shoot or handle well enough to play substantial minutes at SF.

BTW, no team is going to have long term success running up and down the court throwing alley-oops. Even if they manage to score 140 pts a game. Denver already proved that with the Paul Westhead teams.

[Dat2U]

There's a topic on the PC Board about McGee vs. Nene. A longtime respected poster "Doctor MJ" made two very good posts on the comparison. Thought I'd re-post them here...

Post 1 (in response)

You'd think so based on McGee's box score stats, but everyone knows that McGee is about the lowest BBIQ guy in the league, and +/- stats say he's horrible.

For example, 1-year APM this year is -11.45, which ranks him as 3rd worst in the entire league among players with significant minutes, and offensive vs defensive breakdowns actually tend to say he's worse on defense than on offense.

Now, there are obviously worse players not getting the minutes so "worst player in the league" is clear hyperbole, but it's entirely possible that McGee is the most counterproductive rotation player in the league.

Post 2 (follow-up)

Oh, and let me get more specific. We actually have 4 factor breakdowns of +/- impact for players now.

On defense, McGee is actually neutral on things like effecitve FG% allowed and turnovers created. Where McGee is absolutely terrible is on defensive rebounding.

Let me be very clear: Not on ALL rebounding, but defensive rebounding.

This is interesting because Nene is someone who typically does well by +/- stats, and you know what his calling card is based on 4 factor analysis? Great defensive rebounding.

Based on the City's study over the past 2.5 years, Nene had the best defensive rebounding rating in the league among big minute players at -1.79. (Negative here is a good thing because it represents LESS offensive rebounding)

McGee? He's got a +2.37, the WORST big minute rating in the league.

It's actually incredible to see the results be so extreme in difference in the same category between two guys traded for each other.

Now here's the thing. I know people are going to say: But their individual defensive rebounding numbers are similar! The thing is, what makes a great defensive rebounder isn't so much his ability to personally get defensive rebounds, but his ability to rebound in a team context. That means things like focusing first on boxing your man out so that he can NOT get the rebound. You play the percentages, and if everyone on your team is play smart team rebounding, then the odds that one of you gets the rebound goes way up.

At any point it's possible to increase your personal defensive rebounding numbers by ignoring the fundamentals and crashing the boards, but this is counterproductive for the team.

It's a very different thing on offense where unless you do something to break the defense's team rebounding, you're going to lose the rebounding battle. Hence, offensive rebounding is something young, athletic, clueless bigs can become solid in almost on instinct, whereas defensive rebounding is in the veteran's roundhouse.

Thought he added a lot to the discussion.

Respected or not, basing an argument mainly off of +/- numbers isn't very credible because +/- is a flawed tool for measuring a player's true impact. Franchise players like Rose & Durant have had negative +/- differential in the past years but I don't think anyone with any common sense would say their respective teams were better without those players.

There's no doubting Nene is the better player at the moment even if McGee is more "productive" stats wise. However the reason Denver made the trade for McGee was two fold, Nene's exorbitant salary and ability to stay healthy, and McGee's potential for continued development. At the moment the trade looks good for both teams. But right now it's too early to claim a win on either end.

[Dat2U]

McGee was awful in DC due to the combination of coaches, front office, lack of discipline and his perosonality. With Karl/increased media spotlight/professional front office and consistent expectations of success by the Denver fanbase and organization it's only logical McGee should improve.

It just wasn't going to happen in DC. It was obvious.

Success in Denver doesn't equate to success in DC. And vice versa, completely different ecosystems.

Just depends on the situation. I disliked McGee on the Wiz, not as a person.....I hope he blows up but i'm not foolish enough to believe it would have happened here. We needed a successful veteran with playoff experience.

It could be a win win for both teams. Let's revisit in December.

I disagree that it couldn't happen in DC, but it wouldn't have happened with the roster as constructed last season. McGee more than anyone really needed to be surrounded by some veteran talent & leadership.

But honestly that goes for the entire roster. Wall wasn't going to be successful with that group. No one was going to be. EG had created an environment where failure was inevitable and internal development was completed stunted. It wasn't until the Nene trade and subsequent acquisitions of Singleton & Martin that the veteran influence began to work its way through the roster and foster a more positive environment on and off the court.

[Dat2U]

JaVale is all of 24 y/o, we all know how -long it takes big men to develop. I am placing my bets on JaVale reaching his potential under a superior basketball organization.

This quote probably makes the most sense out of anything I've read on this thread. Andrew Bynum is just starting to realize his enormous potential and he's been in the league 7 years!

And don't forget no one was a bigger project than McGee coming out of Nevada.

For the Wizards sake, they just better hope Nene remains productive and specifically that he remains healthy for the bulk of his deal.

But for those who thought McGee would just disappear off the radar and couldn't contribute on a good team have already been proven wrong.

To dismiss his impact against arguably the best front line in basketball in helping his team win a key playoff game is just sour grapes.

[hands11]

Javale's post scoring looked good. He had a great game at both ends of the floor.

16 points, 15 rebounds, 3 blocks, 2 steals, 2 assists, 1 turnover. McGee finished a game-high +30.

The thing he really did was hang in there against Bynum. At times, Javale got tossed around like a rag doll. He got hammered and thrown to the ground, yet McGee kept coming back at Bynum. He outpaced Bynum, and McGee did his damage in 28 minutes, as opposed to 41 for Bynum.

I was really happy to see Javale do well. I think the Nuggets have cracked the code on how to beat LAL. They can slow Bynum by running a double team at him.

I think when we evaluate McGee in about two years we are going to be like

He needs to keep getting stronger. He needs to grow up more.
The kid still has made potential though.

It is a shame the Wizard had to move on from him but they needed a Nene now more then they needed a McGee in two years. The Wiz needed that culture change to happen now. Collectively all the players on the team will be better for it. You can already see the effect it has had on Wall and KS.

[hands11]

Keep hating, nate. I think McGee will get 10M per year and be worth every penny of it. He's going to have a nice career.

Denver's future lies in racing the ball up court, and with Lawson hitting Faried and McGee for dunks.

What the Nuggets need against the Lakers is somebody with PF/C size and perimeter skills to put in the frontcourt with McGee and Faried. Danilo Galinari doesn't look healthy and he's not quite big or strong enough to be a factor inside. The Nuggets need to draft somebody like Arnett Moultrie and they will be set. As scrappy as Faried is playing PF, I think he will be much more effective at SF.

I'm going to wait until this series ends before coming up with a price for McGee. What he does over the course of the playoffs will have a lot to do with what he gets.

[hands11]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mcgeeja01.html

McGee looks and acts different. Most people are visual. A lot of people are haters, I think because of the way McGee looks when he makes blunders.

I am glad the way the Wizards are playing now with Nene. I am also hopeful McGee can have a whole lot more games like yesterday. Faried is a rookie and together with McGee, the two gathered 30 rebounds against Pau Gasol and with Andrew Bynum playing 41 minutes.

One thing few haters realize is that McGee is a far better rebounder than Nene or Seraphin.

McGee as a Denver Nugget has averaged 18.0 points and 10 rebounds per-36 minutes, on .612 eFG%

His Denver PER is 20.5.

Trust me when I say this: Denver is very, very happy with the trade.

Well since you wanted Faried here so bad, I guess this is like a dream come true for you. You get to see the combo you wanted to see.. even if it isn't here as Wizards.

[DCZards]

This quote probably makes the most sense out of anything I've read on this thread. Andrew Bynum is just starting to realize his enormous potential and he's been in the league 7 years!

Injuries are the primary reason that Bynum is just now realizing his potential. The same can't be said for McGee. It's been obvious pretty much from the outset of Bynum's career that he would be a beast when healthy.

[theboomking]

Javale has played in 3 playoff games this year and had one good game. His playoff stats as a whole suck. Javale posted similar, and it anything, inferior stats in the regular season in Denver.

Anyone want to post Vale's playoff stats and tell me how gret he is, or his regular season stats, and tell me the problem was that he was in Washington dc?

[tontoz]

Saying one game proves people wrong about Mcgee is completely moronic. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

For the series McGee is shooting 41.7%, not exactly what you want from your center. Meanwhile Bynum is averaging 18 ppg shooting 58%.

[nate33]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mcgeeja01.html

McGee looks and acts different. Most people are visual. A lot of people are haters, I think because of the way McGee looks when he makes blunders.

I am glad the way the Wizards are playing now with Nene. I am also hopeful McGee can have a whole lot more games like yesterday. Faried is a rookie and together with McGee, the two gathered 30 rebounds against Pau Gasol and with Andrew Bynum playing 41 minutes.

One thing few haters realize is that McGee is a far better rebounder than Nene or Seraphin.

McGee as a Denver Nugget has averaged 18.0 points and 10 rebounds per-36 minutes, on .612 eFG%

His Denver PER is 20.5.

Trust me when I say this: Denver is very, very happy with the trade.

CCJ, he put up basically the same numbers in Washington. Yet our point differential as a team was -9.0 per 100 possessions. Post-trade, we were +1.3, and that's with Nene missing half of the games.

[hands11]

JaVale is all of 24 y/o, we all know how -long it takes big men to develop. I am placing my bets on JaVale reaching his potential under a superior basketball organization.

This quote probably makes the most sense out of anything I've read on this thread. Andrew Bynum is just starting to realize his enormous potential and he's been in the league 7 years!

And don't forget no one was a bigger project than McGee coming out of Nevada.

For the Wizards sake, they just better hope Nene remains productive and specifically that he remains healthy for the bulk of his deal.

But for those who thought McGee would just disappear off the radar and couldn't contribute on a good team have already been proven wrong.

To dismiss his impact against arguably the best front line in basketball in helping his team win a key playoff game is just sour grapes.

I don't remember a lot of posters thinking he would disappear. I think most expected what we are seeing. That he would come off the bench at first and that it would take some time for him to adjust.

Personally, I always said the trade was good for all teams involved.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

McGee was awful in DC due to the combination of coaches, front office, lack of discipline and his perosonality. With Karl/increased media spotlight/professional front office and consistent expectations of success by the Denver fanbase and organization it's only logical McGee should improve.

It just wasn't going to happen in DC. It was obvious.

Success in Denver doesn't equate to success in DC. And vice versa, completely different ecosystems.

Just depends on the situation. I disliked McGee on the Wiz, not as a person.....I hope he blows up but i'm not foolish enough to believe it would have happened here. We needed a successful veteran with playoff experience.

It could be a win win for both teams. Let's revisit in December.

Nice post. I felt McGee wasn't going to ever reaiize his potential in DC. I thought the Wizard coaches were quite foolish to never try McGee with Seraphin. I didn't object to the idea of McGee being traded. I was against Nene being acquired because of his salary, his injury history, and the speculation on my part Nene wouldn't be a happy camper.

As it turns out, Nene has embraced his role. He is a very good player for Kevin to emulate. Nene is a much better player than I thought. My single biggest objection to the Nene deal is I thought Kevin would never get to play any more.

Things look good for both team.

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

McGee was awful in DC due to the combination of coaches, front office, lack of discipline and his perosonality. With Karl/increased media spotlight/professional front office and consistent expectations of success by the Denver fanbase and organization it's only logical McGee should improve.

It just wasn't going to happen in DC. It was obvious.

Success in Denver doesn't equate to success in DC. And vice versa, completely different ecosystems.

Just depends on the situation. I disliked McGee on the Wiz, not as a person.....I hope he blows up but i'm not foolish enough to believe it would have happened here. We needed a successful veteran with playoff experience.

It could be a win win for both teams. Let's revisit in December.

CCJ. I love that you are going to be able to keep that sig through atleast October...

Of course, if the Wiz fo doesn't bring back the second coming of The Ron, you'll be able to change it to Wiz undefeated all time with Morris

Nice post. I felt McGee wasn't going to ever reaiize his potential in DC. I thought the Wizard coaches were quite foolish to never try McGee with Seraphin. I didn't object to the idea of McGee being traded. I was against Nene being acquired because of his salary, his injury history, and the speculation on my part Nene wouldn't be a happy camper.

As it turns out, Nene has embraced his role. He is a very good player for Kevin to emulate. Nene is a much better player than I thought. My single biggest objection to the Nene deal is I thought Kevin would never get to play any more.

Things look good for both team.

[eathb_au]

Javale has played in 3 playoff games this year and had one good game. His playoff stats as a whole suck. Javale posted similar, and it anything, inferior stats in the regular season in Denver.

Anyone want to post Vale's playoff stats and tell me how gret he is, or his regular season stats, and tell me the problem was that he was in Washington dc?

It's not about stats. McGee has just shown at his potential he can dominate and win playoffs games by himself. Nene has never shown that, ever.