Political Roundtable - Part VI

[hands11]

Indy again with your twisted stats. This is the Fox News argument. If more people watch Fox News, then it must be right. So, I'll tout Fox News numbers as an argument to show I'm right (and most people agree with me). Of course, we know the folly of that stat because there are more democrats than republicans.

So, Obama's approval rating has dipped internationally. Of course, the YEARS he had the highest approval rating of any President in history in Europe didn't count right? I'm certain if I had said, "Well, Obama is wildly popular in Europe," that argument would have carried weight here. That said, his approval rating in Europe is still greater than every single Republican president in modern history. Bush's approval rating was in the single digits.

Speaking of single digits, Congress' approval rating is single digits. So, if you are pitting approval ratings against one another, Obama towers over the opposition. And btw, Reagan's worst approval rating? 35. Bush's? 27.

Again, this is what the party of no wanted. They came into office saying that if we merely say no to everything, the economy won't improve, and then we can blame Obama. Same thing with this shutdown. They are banking on low information voters with ADD not understanding how this started. And meanwhile, if we had all democrats in office, the economy would be booming (because we wouldn't have the uncertainty caused by tea partiers threatening the world economy every few months).

Finally, unlike Bush, history will treat Obama very well, especially as Obamacare expands and engraves itself into society.

LOL - Right.. They would have said he was an International Rock Star or something. Now Indy is some how concerned with what these other people think.

Now watch the TPs line up with Russia because they want to remove kids from parents that are gay. Should be interesting watching them partner with Russia and spin that. Again, religious fundimentism, American religious conservatism, Taliban, Saudi's... its all the same tree.

Hey, anyone catching any this Malala girl from Pakistan. What a God sent. So fearless and full of truth. Through the mouth of babes. It warms my soul to hear hear speak. Brings tears to my eyes. See, there is hope for the future. The seeds are taking root. This is the American spirit I think we cling to. Who cares where it comes from next ? I don't. The goal of the American influence of its founding was supposed to be global.

[W. Unseld]

I will be happen to get past these false crisises so we can address legitimate concerns of drones, Patriot Act, NSA, etc. Under an environment of less right wing nut jobs, I think we can reverse some of these polices.

Good lord hands, this is almost comical. This president has prosecuted more people under an obscure 1917 espionage act that was never intended for journalists or mere leaks. International committees and other journalists including left leaning papers and blogs have concluded that this is the worst journalist intimidation by an administration since Nixon and your come back is to blame that on "right wing nut jobs"??? Is there a point in having these discussions? If you reply, please recall that brevity is possible, preferable and appreciated.

[hands11]

Don't forget the poll stating 60% approve of all members of the house and Senate being fired...

It's not about the **** parties, it's a broken process which can only be resolved through prolonged soul searching and compromise.

It's readily apparent there hasn't been enough compromise from either side...

No Indy.

Oh course the average person will say kick them all out. Thats simple. Look at all the polls. They know its the Rs/TPs. Most people don't know much so they say just throw them all out because they are sick of the results. But when you look at all the numbers, its clear who they blame and why.

No, this is going to work itself out. Compromise from the Dems is what has allowed it to last this long. Standing strong like Obama did was the right thing. Very thankful and proud he did. Its going to end before long. Dems are going to gain clear control. Then we will start getting things done. The people will like the progress. Indy, you aren't seeing what is going on brother.

You can go back and read this tread. I predicted so much of this. Can't say past performance will predict future results, but you might want to consider it. Things you predicted, they haven't happened.

You seem to have a very limited construct for evaluating things.

Hey, I concede you probably know more than I do about working out international deals and starting business. Sounds like you have a talent for that. But a wise man knows what he knows and knows what he doesn't. I have no problem giving you those props, if who you say you are is who you are.

But you might want to do the same in return. That's how we benefit from each other knowledge.

[hands11]

E"Someone is losing"? Don't understand the gamification here.

----
Monthly Rasmussen Reports tracking of partisan trends found that in June 2012, 35.4% identified as Republicans, 34.0% as Democrats and 30.5% were unaffiliated. These numbers changed only slightly from the previous month.
----

Until those numbers above change drastically (hopefully with a significantly rising number of independents) the play by play of who is "losing" is completely pointless. The population of the US had lost faith in the ability for the federal government to function. How does anyone "win"in that scenario?

This will end with compromise and negotiation. No option for either side no matter how much they pout about being "right". Both sides will give ground on the impasse, and both sides will lose ground in the next round of elections due to their inability to find common ground.

This has become a bigger childish fight for the next elections.....and it's backfired for both parties.

After Obama's departure the generation of young Americans will have lived through 16 years of ineffectual (Obama) and/or borderline evil administrations (Bush).

Sit back and watch Indy. Should be interesting to see at what point you get what I have been saying.

The polls are only going to get better for Obama and the Dems. This nonsense is about to end. Its a huge 20-25 year cycle coming to an end. Obama just allowed them to crush themselves. I would never play Chess with Obama.

[hands11]

Directly contradicting this article, I guess:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/us/a- ... 1&_r=2&hp&

"The billionaire Koch brothers, Charles and David, have been deeply involved with financing the overall effort. A group linked to the Kochs, Freedom Partners Chamber of Commerce, disbursed more than $200 million last year to nonprofit organizations involved in the fight. Included was $5 million to Generation Opportunity, which created a buzz last month with an Internet advertisement showing a menacing Uncle Sam figure popping up between a woman’s legs during a gynecological exam."

Right. I posted about that. Hey, they tried to rule the world. But when it doesn't work, they have a fall back plane. They will still be rich as sht when its all over. They were just trying to maximize profits.

Time to fall back, rebrand, do some damage control and make the most of it. I expect a BP Oil type champagne.

This is like Matrix 3 when the machines finally realize they need to partner with Neo to end the war. How long will the peace last. We don't know. Actually, the analogy is a pretty good one.

[hands11]

I will be happen to get past these false crisises so we can address legitimate concerns of drones, Patriot Act, NSA, etc. Under an environment of less right wing nut jobs, I think we can reverse some of these polices.

Good lord hands, this is almost comical. This president has prosecuted more people under an obscure 1917 espionage act that was never intended for journalists or mere leaks. International committees and other journalists including left leaning papers and blogs have concluded that this is the worst journalist intimidation by an administration since Nixon and your come back is to blame that on "right wing nut jobs"??? Is there a point in having these discussions? If you reply, please recall that brevity is possible, preferable and appreciated.

The point I was attempting to make that I might not have done well is, there is context. There is a umbrella. If the house is one fire, no one is focused on the leaking water pipes. This is actually a political strategy to this that is implemented sometimes.

I tried to express that this was a tough one to debate. I personally don't have enough facts. What is hidden? Hard to know when it is hidden. We know some stuff should be.

What I was saying is until the fire is put out, people won't focus on these other things. I don't have a position on what has happened. Personally, I haven't research it enough to have a specific position. When they put out the fire, I will look at this things more.

That was what I was trying to express. I do blame the fire on the TP/Rs. Let see if these issue get more focus one the fire is out. TP/Rs have done themselves no favors in bring these issues up. Why ? They cry wolf over everything.

[hands11]

Results of shut down and debt ceiling threat

ACA favorable rating going up
Obamas rating better
Rs rating worse
Want the Dems to control the house rating going up.

What a nightmare for the Rs.

Here is what I think we get out of this.

1 year debt limit increase that gets us at least to the mid terms.
Hopefully something to changes how the debt limit getting passed works moving forward.
Government opens.
Plan to negotiate sequester.
Budget talked from March passed billed get R conference's
Rs get temporary medical device tax removed.

They get a small fig leaf, Dems get everything else they wanted.

Most of that is what should have happened anyway. So why should Obama give anything on ACA ? Only if they change how the debt ceiling is debt with moving forward. That would be worth it. If not, he should no give that up just for a 1 year debt limit.

[W. Unseld]

I will be happen to get past these false crisises so we can address legitimate concerns of drones, Patriot Act, NSA, etc. Under an environment of less right wing nut jobs, I think we can reverse some of these polices.

Good lord hands, this is almost comical. This president has prosecuted more people under an obscure 1917 espionage act that was never intended for journalists or mere leaks. International committees and other journalists including left leaning papers and blogs have concluded that this is the worst journalist intimidation by an administration since Nixon and your come back is to blame that on "right wing nut jobs"??? Is there a point in having these discussions? If you reply, please recall that brevity is possible, preferable and appreciated.

I tried to express that this was a tough one to debate. I personally don't have enough facts. What is hidden? Hard to know when it is hidden.

I don't have a position on what has happened. Personally, I haven't research it enough to have a specific position.

That was what I was trying to express. I do blame the fire on the TP/Rs. TP/Rs have done themselves no favors in bring these issues up. Why ? They cry wolf over everything.

Yikes, not sure how this is a "tough one" or could possible be the tea parties fault but go ahead and research and get back to me.

[fugop]

Obama's escalation of surveillance, media persecution, and privacy violations are a travesty. It would be grounds for impeachment in a sane political world. It's worse that Obama is a constitutional lawyer, and should have disproportionate regard for civil liberties.

The only thing "tough" about this is that the Republicans support the abusive and non-legal surveillance practices, so there's no electoral alternative.

[hands11]

Voter Value Summit

Crazy is still strong and well.

Paul Ryan. what separates us is our faith No Paul. Most people have faith. They just don't believe what you believe, such as you are the only true people of faith or that tricklesdown economics works.

Ann Rand Paul - there is a world wide war on Christianity.. No Rand. There is a rejection of the TP brand of born again Christians religious representation in politics, not Christianity or even religion in general. There are plenty of Christians in politics that are not of that brand and they mostly just go about their lives practicing their faith and doing their jobs.

Michele Bachmann calls the ACA deathcare... calls to stand up and take on the oppressive president for what is moral, righteous and true. At least Bachmann should be gone before long. I guess Fox will still give her a voice though like they do Sarah. Born again tiger moms are a feisty vocal bunch. She can go on a road tour so should can continue to promote the idea that the end times are here and all the policies we need to promote to accelerate that happening.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/democr ... -her-seat/

Cruz ? Well he is still in Cruzland. He doesn't think the polls are accurate. Just liberal pollsters. The numbers don't reflect where the country is. Sounds a lot like the message they used leading up to the Mitt elections.

There is just no convincing some people of the facts.

[Wizardspride]

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/20 ... s-slavery/

Ben Carson: Obamacare is ‘Slavery’


Ben Carson is probably best known for his work as a neurosurgeon, but in recent months he has become a conservative firebrand and today he offered some controversial red meat to the audience at the Values Voter Summit in Washington.

Carson, who is a contributor to Fox News, assailed president Obama’s health care law, saying it is akin to slavery.

“I have to tell you, you know Obamacare is really, I think, the worst thing that has happened in this nation since slavery,” Carson said. “And it is slavery in a way because it is making all of us subservient to the government.”

Carson, who is African American, went on to say that the administration’s push toward Obamacare is reminiscent to a push toward socialism.

“It was never about health care, it was about control,” Carson said. “That’s why when this administration took office it didn’t matter that the country was going off the cliff economically. All forces were directed toward getting this legislation passed.

“Vladimir Lenin, one of the fathers of Socialism and Communism, said that socialized medicine is the keystone to the establishment of the socialist state,” he added.

[montestewart]

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/10/ben-carson-obamacare-is-slavery/

Ben Carson: Obamacare is ‘Slavery’


Ben Carson is probably best known for his work as a neurosurgeon, but in recent months he has become a conservative firebrand and today he offered some controversial red meat to the audience at the Values Voter Summit in Washington.

Carson, who is a contributor to Fox News, assailed president Obama’s health care law, saying it is akin to slavery.

“I have to tell you, you know Obamacare is really, I think, the worst thing that has happened in this nation since slavery,” Carson said. “And it is slavery in a way because it is making all of us subservient to the government.”

Carson, who is African American, went on to say that the administration’s push toward Obamacare is reminiscent to a push toward socialism.

“It was never about health care, it was about control,” Carson said. “That’s why when this administration took office it didn’t matter that the country was going off the cliff economically. All forces were directed toward getting this legislation passed.

“Vladimir Lenin, one of the fathers of Socialism and Communism, said that socialized medicine is the keystone to the establishment of the socialist state,” he added.

Obamacare: Worse than 9/11!

Good to see Fox adding a few soft spoken and level headed crackpots to their lineup.

[hands11]

Anyone that has access to Bill Maher should watch the episode from tonight.


Where were the following people born.

McCain
Romney
Cruz

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/20 ... president/

Interesting read. I didn't realize that Mitt father also had issue about this when he ran.

[barelyawake]

"Monthly Rasmussen Reports tracking of partisan trends found that in June 2012, 35.4% identified as Republicans, 34.0% as Democrats and 30.5% were unaffiliated. These numbers changed only slightly from the previous month."

Lol Indy, with your outlier 2012, Rasmussen poll. Rasmussen also predicted Romney would win. For the last decade, and currently, polls have consistently said there are more Democrats than Republicans. More over, polls consistantly show that the populace agrees with Democratic ideas -- health care, social security, Medicare, etc etc... And you know how I know it's true? Democrats have won the popular vote five out of six presidential elections; won the Senate; and got more votes in the House (and are currently polling 5 points higher in general congressional race). If I weren't on the road, I'd fill this page with polls to dispute your June of 2012 poll.

Btw, Clinton currently beats (or destroys) every single Republican match-up in polls. She will be president. And Republican poll numbers are falling off a cliff. And rightfully so. Almost no one agrees with what the tea party believes. It's going to take more losses before Republicans understand that.

[Induveca]

We

"Monthly Rasmussen Reports tracking of partisan trends found that in June 2012, 35.4% identified as Republicans, 34.0% as Democrats and 30.5% were unaffiliated. These numbers changed only slightly from the previous month."

Lol Indy, with your outlier 2012, Rasmussen poll. Rasmussen also predicted Romney would win. For the last decade, and currently, polls have consistently said there are more Democrats than Republicans. More over, polls consistantly show that the populace agrees with Democratic ideas -- health care, social security, Medicare, etc etc... And you know how I know it's true? Democrats have won the popular vote five out of six presidential elections; won the Senate; and got more votes in the House (and are currently polling 5 points higher in general congressional race). If I weren't on the road, I'd fill this page with polls to dispute your June of 2012 poll.

Btw, Clinton currently beats (or destroys) every single Republican match-up in polls. She will be president. And Republican poll numbers are falling off a cliff. And rightfully so. Almost no one agrees with what the tea party believes. It's going to take more losses before Republicans understand that.

Again, I am not a member of any party. I left the US over a year ago now, mostly out of a frustration with media, ignorance of the current generation and excessive paperwork and a continual push for socialist style programs.

A year later, I simply think both arrogant parties are unwittingly tanking the country for a future play at some misconceived political dominance which they hope results in a prolonged payday for themselves/cronies/lobbyists.

My statements aren't to disrespect either party individually, I strongly dislike them both equally over the past 14 years.

If Clinton wins, I sincerely hope she can help raise the US back to its former glory. I was very impressed by her husband when I first moved to DC in the mid 90s.....I hope she has the same capabilities.

Don't waste your time disputing polls, I think close presidential elections prove the US is pretty much split down the middle. Even more so now with the government looking a 3rd world "shutdown" stunt.

Also any monkey can search for a poll to dispute another... Would be a waste of time.

The only government default I can remember was the Dominican republic defaulting on their oil bill to Venezuela in the 80s. Gas prices shot up 300 percent within a few years. Equivalent of missing a payment on a 5% APR card and finding your new rate at 18.

[Zonkerbl]

http://www.thenation.com/blog/176586/grim-report-press-freedoms-under-obama#
"Today the Committee to Protect Journalists unveiled a detailed, sober assessment of press freedom in the United States during President Obama’s tenure. The report concluded that far from fulfilling his campaign promise to improve transparency, the president has instead presided over an unprecedented campaign to contain leaks and to control media coverage of government operations."

Zonk, credit for posting against what appears from the message board to be your party. I like the independent/objective streak on your part and this shows why it's no good to simply assume one side is always the bad guys, and the other is always the good (often they're both bad).

“Barack Obama has pursued the most aggressive “war on leaks” since the Nixon administration, according to a report published on Thursday that says the administration’s attempts to control the flow of information is hampering the ability of journalists to do their jobs. The author of the study, the former Washington Post executive editor Leonard Downie, says the administration’s actions have severely hindered the release of information that could be used to hold it to account.”
When you combine that with this--it starts to get freaky:
The U.S. government charged former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden with three felonies, including two under the Espionage Act. He now becomes the eighth person to be charged under the Espionage Act under Obama, according to Firedoglake. That is more than double all previous presidents combined. Prior to Obama’s administration only three people who leaked information had been charged under the 1917 statute that was never really intended for leakers.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/ ... e_act.html

Wow. I think I'm actually a little offended. Being liberal doesn't mean blindly supporting everything your leader does. That's a conservative thing. I voted for Obama because I want him to represent my liberal principles. If anything I'm more angry about Obama pulling crap like this than I would be about Bush.

How can we liberals defend ourselves from billionaire manipulation without a free press? How can us hippies question authority if it's illegal to question authority?

[barelyawake]

Lol Indy, you're an independent now? Ok, so you moved out of the country because Obama is a God damned socialist who is ruining the country with his socialist health care giveaways, but you have no particular dog in the fight anymore? But, you do like Clinton (who tried to get a single payer program for America)? What exactly did you like about Clinton? I know you liked the part where he cut welfare and allowed corporations to send all of our jobs overseas. Did you like it when he raised taxes on the rich?

What's funny is I hear more and more diehard Republicans, who are now ashamed of the tea party, claiming they are "independent."

[Induveca]

Lol Indy, you're an independent now? Ok, so you moved out of the country because Obama is a God damned socialist who is ruining the country with his socialist health care giveaways, but you have no particular dog in the fight anymore? But, you do like Clinton (who tried to get a single payer program for America)? What exactly did you like about Clinton? I know you liked the part where he cut welfare and allowed corporations to send all of our jobs overseas. Did you like it when he raised taxes on the rich?

What's funny is I hear more and more diehard Republicans, who are now ashamed of the tea party, claiming they are "independent."

I'm Dominican....not American. I lived most of my childhood in Santo Domingo. Never voted in the US, so never really had any "dog" in the fight.

That being said, I do think Obama has been awful for the economy and had hoped Romney would win. In 2008 I was happy for Obama's win for their impact on darker skin kids worldwide. Not even in my home country of mostly dark skin citizens had a black president been elected.

Quite honestly, I'm not familiar with the tea party policies, even though I keep up with politics worldwide. Just seemed like a republican faction democrats enjoy to hate. I can't remember them ever being mentioned once on CNN international or other global news channels.

Clinton era I likely saw through rose colored glasses as I was a young programmer at successful dot coms. I do remember gas at around one dollar a gallon in 96, and my salary doubling every year as I worked 16 hour days at startups.

Also remember reading the "cigar" story 8 hours before it was released via a tech connection. Boom times are good times. But I do remember people working hard, not as reliant on credit cards.....and no one I worked with felt entitled. Was a very bright era, one where individual imagination, extreme hard work was rewarded greatly by the market.

I couldn't get most computer sci kids in the US to work over 8 hours a day the past 6 years. Preferred to pay South Americans to work twice as long for 4 times less with better results. That for sure was not the case in the late 90s. The US work ethic I tech was near manic.

[hands11]

New proposal I heard was.

Debt Ceiling through mid next year.
Budget through end of year into Jan to open the gov so they can actually debate longer term budgets
2 year delay on medical instruments tax. Well, they will need to find an off set for that.

I don't know. He shouldn't give them anything for doing what they should have done all along. All I would give them is a promise that after they raise the debt ceiling that I would promise to have the senate bring the medical devices thing to the floor for a vote. Enough Dems are against it that it was going to get debated anyway. I wouldn't even put the CR up as part of the deal. Let them hang over that. Its the debt ceiling time bomb that is the only thing that has to be dealt with right now.

If I giving them anything in this deal regarding ACA, I want something back. I don't see what he is getting back.

Needs to be something like, the debt ceiling will always get raised for at least 3 months one week before its needed. That way it can be used for what its good for, bringing our finances up as a topic to the people, but without any hostage taking part. That way politicians can posture, news can cover, but we are holding the world hostage.

[DCZards]

I couldn't get most computer sci kids in the US to work over 8 hours a day the past 6 years. Preferred to pay South Americans to work twice as long for 4 times less with better results. That for sure was not the case in the late 90s. The US work ethic I tech was near manic.

Seriously, Indu? You're really into exploiting workers aren't you? I'm glad--and proud--that you couldn't find many American kids who were willing to work long hours at low wages. Good to see they're smarter than that.