Official Trade Thread -- Part XL

[gambitx777]

I mean there are more exceptions to that rule for big men than any other positions in the nba

The same reason I'm super happy getting Gafford big men take time.

Gafford is 22 and has already earned 1000 NBA minutes. He is posting 14 points, 10 boards and 3 blocks per 36 minutes on a TS% of .701. this year with a breakeven on/off differential. And he still has a rather low likelihood of panning out to be much more than a capable backup center.

Kabangele is 23 and has only convinced his team to play him 158 minutes in 2 years. He is posting 16 points, 6 boards and 1 block per 36 with a TS% of .501 during those minutes with a massively negative on/off differential of -12.2.

Big men take time, but they have to show something in their first two years. At least post some box score numbers and play a little D.

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[nate33]

I mean there are more exceptions to that rule for big men than any other positions in the nba

Really? Do you have any evidence of this?

[doclinkin]

Read on Twitter

Interesting.

Dieng is a pretty useful player.

I can see why Memphis let him go since they have JV and Tillman, plus JJJ is coming back. But other, less fortunate teams could use him. He's not awful defensively and can knock down a 3. Heck, Denver would have been better off with him instead of sacrificing two 2nds for McGee.

Charlotte could use him.

I'd play him over Len. He is a pro's pro and a solid defender with good habits and fundamentals. Good guy. With the range that Tommy and his staff fetishize. He opens room underneath for dribble-drive players Beal and Russ. Cut Gill or Robinson. Dieng is underrated, mostly because he's been overpaid. But on a partial year contract would he push us over the edge into lux tax?

[gambitx777]

I mean there are more exceptions to that rule for big men than any other positions in the nba

Really? Do you have any evidence of this?

Whiteside, christian wood, javale McGee, birch, theis, ed davis, Boban, WCS, Biyambo

Those are just the dudes I can think of still in the nba.

Dude who weren't seen as good or were called busts and took a few years to be seen as useful NBA players.

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[prime1time]

The same reason I'm super happy getting Gafford big men take time.

Gafford is 22 and has already earned 1000 NBA minutes. He is posting 14 points, 10 boards and 3 blocks per 36 minutes on a TS% of .701. this year with a breakeven on/off differential. And he still has a rather low likelihood of panning out to be much more than a capable backup center.

Kabangele is 23 and has only convinced his team to play him 158 minutes in 2 years. He is posting 16 points, 6 boards and 1 block per 36 with a TS% of .501 during those minutes with a massively negative on/off differential of -12.2.

Big men take time, but they have to show something in their first two years. At least post some box score numbers and play a little D.

Kabengele played for the Clippers. A team that doesn't have time to develop their players because they are in win-now mode. Gafford played for the Bulls. I'm not saying he's a world-beater, but he's someone I'd definitely take a flyer on. How expensive would he be?

[nate33]

But on a partial year contract would he push us over the edge into lux tax?

No. We cleared a little luxtax room with the Troy Brown trade. We can definitely afford a pro-rated minimum salary contract.

I really like the idea of getting Dieng. We have absolutely no stretch 5 at the moment with Wagner gone and it's totally clogging the lane. (Wagner wasn't a great shooter or anything, but guys couldn't just stand 10 feet away from him at let him shoot.)

Gil is giving us nothing. Cut him and sign Dieng.

[payitforward]

Off the top of my head, we are now about $3m under the tax line. This means that we could certainly take on at least 1 more player, maybe even 2.

Kabengele had pretty good college numbers. & he did shoot the 3 in college. But, he has been so inept as a pro that I wouldn't bother with him.

As to Dieng, what would be the point of signing him? He's 31. Not part of our future.

[nate33]

I mean there are more exceptions to that rule for big men than any other positions in the nba

Really? Do you have any evidence of this?

Whiteside, christian wood, javale McGee, birch, theis, ed davis, Boban, WCS, Biyambo

Those are just the dudes I can think of still in the nba.

Dude who weren't seen as good or were called busts and took a few years to be seen as useful NBA players.

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Whiteside and Wood are the only examples that are interesting. With all those other guys, they only panned out to be backups. You don't take the time, money, and roster room to train and groom a guy who will ultimately become a backup when you can just sign veteran backups in free agency. Also, most of those guys posted better per minute numbers than Kabengele.

Christian Wood was clearly talented from the get go, but he must have been a real attitude problem because teams kept cutting him even though he was posting spectacular per minute numbers. Kabengele has not posted spectacular per minute numbers. He has posted terrible per minute numbers.

I'll cede that Whiteside is an example of an "exception to the rule". He was a total washout in his first stint, matured after playing overseas a bit, and suddenly became a real force - though he still lacks the bball IQ to be a reliable starter. But at least Whiteside was a freak physical specimen with the physical potential to dominate the league. He's 7-0 with a 7-7 wingspan. It's worth taking a little more time with a guy like that. Kabengele has just a run-of-the-mill NBA center body type, 6-10 with a 7-3 wingspan.

[nate33]

The same reason I'm super happy getting Gafford big men take time.

Gafford is 22 and has already earned 1000 NBA minutes. He is posting 14 points, 10 boards and 3 blocks per 36 minutes on a TS% of .701. this year with a breakeven on/off differential. And he still has a rather low likelihood of panning out to be much more than a capable backup center.

Kabangele is 23 and has only convinced his team to play him 158 minutes in 2 years. He is posting 16 points, 6 boards and 1 block per 36 with a TS% of .501 during those minutes with a massively negative on/off differential of -12.2.

Big men take time, but they have to show something in their first two years. At least post some box score numbers and play a little D.

Kabengele played for the Clippers. A team that doesn't have time to develop their players because they are in win-now mode. Gafford played for the Bulls. I'm not saying he's a world-beater, but he's someone I'd definitely take a flyer on. How expensive would he be?

I'm not a big fan of taking the time, money and roster spots to develop backup centers in the first place. But if you do it, you certainly shouldn't develop 2 raw young centers at the same time. It's either Kabengele or Gafford. Gafford is younger, cheaper and has shown much more potential. And we don't have to spend any more assets to get him.

Next year, I figure we'll have Bryant and Gafford at center. Plus either Mobley or a cheap vet about as good as Len.

[Dat2U]

What do people think about Mfiondou Kabengle

I thought he was an intriguing prospect for the draft and I might have considered taking him with a high 2nd round pick (he was gone by the #27 pick though).

As it turns out, he looks like a bust. In two seasons, he can't even get garbage time minutes. The guy has totaled 158 minutes in two years. And his per minute numbers, for what they're worth in a tiny sample size, suggest that he can't rebound, defend or block shots. He is dead weight

158 minutes in garbage time is not enough to draw a conclusion on anyone.

[nate33]

What do people think about Mfiondou Kabengle

I thought he was an intriguing prospect for the draft and I might have considered taking him with a high 2nd round pick (he was gone by the #27 pick though).

As it turns out, he looks like a bust. In two seasons, he can't even get garbage time minutes. The guy has totaled 158 minutes in two years. And his per minute numbers, for what they're worth in a tiny sample size, suggest that he can't rebound, defend or block shots. He is dead weight

158 minutes in garbage time is not enough to draw a conclusion on anyone.

It's enough to conclude that his team wasn't willing to give him more than 158 minutes in two years. Heck, Serge has been hurt for the last 7 games and Kabengele could only manage 7 total minutes.

The guy is almost 24 years old.

[Dat2U]

IMO the Wizards still need a STARTING center. Bryant is drop C who struggled to defend in space when healthy and is coming off a torn ACL going into his contract year. Gafford is an unskilled rim runner who fell out of rotation for the Bulls after blowing his opportunity. They've added depth but I would pause against considering this the answer to our C woes.

The biggest reasons for our struggles beyond Westbrook's wasting of possessions is the defense & rebounding from our front court... especially the C spot. We're generally at a significant disadvantage there every game, Gafford simply isn't going to be enough to put the Wizards on level footing with what other teams run our at the C spot.

[Dat2U]

I thought he was an intriguing prospect for the draft and I might have considered taking him with a high 2nd round pick (he was gone by the #27 pick though).

As it turns out, he looks like a bust. In two seasons, he can't even get garbage time minutes. The guy has totaled 158 minutes in two years. And his per minute numbers, for what they're worth in a tiny sample size, suggest that he can't rebound, defend or block shots. He is dead weight

158 minutes in garbage time is not enough to draw a conclusion on anyone.

It's enough to conclude that his team wasn't willing to give him more than 158 minutes in two years. Heck, Serge has been hurt for the last 7 games and Kabengele could only manage 7 total minutes.

The guy is almost 24 years old.

Statistically the numbers are irrelevant. I mean one good game changes them significantly lol. I don't follow the Clips so I don't know the story behind it but that's a veteran laden team with a veteran front court. Giving minutes to a raw big who didn't even start in college was not going to help them win a championship.

What I do remember about Mfiondu was the he was very skilled in college out the 3 pt line. Offense was way ahead of his defense so I could see his defense keeping him off the floor. He might be more of a 4 instead of a 5 as well.

[nate33]

IMO the Wizards still need a STARTING center. Bryant is drop C who struggled to defend in space when healthy and is coming off a torn ACL going into his contract year. Gafford is an unskilled rim runner who fell out of rotation for the Bulls after blowing his opportunity. They've added depth but I would pause against considering this the answer to our C woes.

The biggest reasons for our struggles beyond Westbrook's wasting of possessions is the defense & rebounding from our front court... especially the C spot. We're generally at a significant disadvantage there every game, Gafford simply isn't going to be enough to put the Wizards on level footing with what other teams run our at the C spot.

I agree that our centers suck, but I actually think it's their offense that is a greater problem than their defense and rebounding. Any team with Westbrook simply cannot have a paint clogger at center, particularly when they're not even vertical threats for a lob. There is no spacing and Beal is running into a brick wall every time he drives the lane.

As I keep pointing out, the Wizards' DRtg since the Covid hiatus has been 112.4 (league average is 112.1). They rank 17th defensively. (The ORtg is 107.7 which ranks 26th.) That respectable defensive showing presumably isn't due to the stellar defense played by the perimeter players. The centers must be doing something right.

[Dat2U]

IMO the Wizards still need a STARTING center. Bryant is drop C who struggled to defend in space when healthy and is coming off a torn ACL going into his contract year. Gafford is an unskilled rim runner who fell out of rotation for the Bulls after blowing his opportunity. They've added depth but I would pause against considering this the answer to our C woes.

The biggest reasons for our struggles beyond Westbrook's wasting of possessions is the defense & rebounding from our front court... especially the C spot. We're generally at a significant disadvantage there every game, Gafford simply isn't going to be enough to put the Wizards on level footing with what other teams run our at the C spot.

I agree that our centers suck, but I actually think it's their offense that is a greater problem than their defense and rebounding. Any team with Westbrook simply cannot have a paint clogger at center, particularly when they're not even vertical threats for a lob. There is no spacing and Beal is running into a brick wall every time he drives the lane.

As I keep pointing out, the Wizards' DRtg since the Covid hiatus has been about league average at 112.4, which ranks 17th. (The ORtg is 107.7 which ranks 26th.) That respectable defensive showing presumably isn't due to the stellar defense played by the perimeter players. The centers must be doing something right.

The Cs don't show on the P&R. Any team can create an open jumpshot against us by running the action. Our bigs sink into paint. Means we do "protect the paint" well but we give up easy open 2s and 3s at will. This would definitely not work well in the playoffs.

[nate33]

IMO the Wizards still need a STARTING center. Bryant is drop C who struggled to defend in space when healthy and is coming off a torn ACL going into his contract year. Gafford is an unskilled rim runner who fell out of rotation for the Bulls after blowing his opportunity. They've added depth but I would pause against considering this the answer to our C woes.

The biggest reasons for our struggles beyond Westbrook's wasting of possessions is the defense & rebounding from our front court... especially the C spot. We're generally at a significant disadvantage there every game, Gafford simply isn't going to be enough to put the Wizards on level footing with what other teams run our at the C spot.

I agree that our centers suck, but I actually think it's their offense that is a greater problem than their defense and rebounding. Any team with Westbrook simply cannot have a paint clogger at center, particularly when they're not even vertical threats for a lob. There is no spacing and Beal is running into a brick wall every time he drives the lane.

As I keep pointing out, the Wizards' DRtg since the Covid hiatus has been about league average at 112.4, which ranks 17th. (The ORtg is 107.7 which ranks 26th.) That respectable defensive showing presumably isn't due to the stellar defense played by the perimeter players. The centers must be doing something right.

The Cs don't show on the P&R. Any team can create an open jumpshot against us by running the action. Our bigs sink into paint. Means we do "protect the paint" well but we give up easy open 2s and 3s at will. This would definitely not work well in the playoffs.

It's easy to believe that the Wizards are awful defensively, but the reality is that everyone is awful defensively in this new era of elite offense. By comparison, the Wizards are sort of okay at D.

The fact is, the Wizards yield the 14th fewest 3PA's. They allow a slightly above average 3P% of 38.2%, but league average is 36.8% so it's not like it's a huge factor (above-average opponent 3P% is costing the Wizards 0.5 points per game). They are also protecting the rim. They rank 13th in limiting points in the paint. They're a little weak on defensive rebounding, ranking 20th in 2nd chance points allowed, but it's not like they stand out as being uniquely terrible at this. (To be fair, Westbrook may be helping quite a bit, and perhaps the team would be horrific on the defensive glass without him. The question is, is Westbrook merely "stealing" defensive boards from other Wizards, or is he grabbing boards that would otherwise fall into enemy hands.)

[doclinkin]

As to Dieng, what would be the point of signing him? He's 31. Not part of our future.

Dieng would be an excellent mentor for Evan Mobley when we land the #1 pick.

[Dat2U]

I agree that our centers suck, but I actually think it's their offense that is a greater problem than their defense and rebounding. Any team with Westbrook simply cannot have a paint clogger at center, particularly when they're not even vertical threats for a lob. There is no spacing and Beal is running into a brick wall every time he drives the lane.

As I keep pointing out, the Wizards' DRtg since the Covid hiatus has been about league average at 112.4, which ranks 17th. (The ORtg is 107.7 which ranks 26th.) That respectable defensive showing presumably isn't due to the stellar defense played by the perimeter players. The centers must be doing something right.

The Cs don't show on the P&R. Any team can create an open jumpshot against us by running the action. Our bigs sink into paint. Means we do "protect the paint" well but we give up easy open 2s and 3s at will. This would definitely not work well in the playoffs.

It's easy to believe that the Wizards are awful defensively, but the reality is that everyone is awful defensively in this new era of elite offense. By comparison, the Wizards are sort of okay at D.

The fact is, the Wizards yield the 14th fewest 3PA's. They allow a slightly above average 3P% of 38.2%, but league average is 36.8% so it's not like it's a huge factor (above-average opponent 3P% is costing the Wizards 0.5 points per game). They are also protecting the rim. They rank 13th in limiting points in the paint. They're a little weak on defensive rebounding, ranking 20th in 2nd chance points allowed, but it's not like they stand out as being uniquely terrible at this. (To be fair, Westbrook may be helping quite a bit, and perhaps the team would be horrific on the defensive glass without him. The question is, is Westbrook merely "stealing" defensive boards from other Wizards, or is he grabbing boards that would otherwise fall into enemy hands.)

I dunno bro. What I see is whenever a team really needs a quality shot against us, they can usually get one. Usually a wide open jumper like when they put Len in P&R at the top of the key late in the last game vs the Knicks; Len dropped to protect the rim and Beal couldn't get back in time to stop Quickley from drilling a backbreaking 3.

[nate33]

The question is, is Westbrook merely "stealing" defensive boards from other Wizards, or is he grabbing boards that would otherwise fall into enemy hands.

I did a little research on this and posted it on the Westbrook thread. The numbers are surprising...

...ly bad.

[gambitx777]

We are taking about Kabengele? I clearly got confused. I thought we were still talking about the trade for Gafford but I'll give you that you don't need to waste time developing back ups. But, I just wanted to make the point that big men often take more time to develop in to useful role players imo .

Really? Do you have any evidence of this?

Whiteside, christian wood, javale McGee, birch, theis, ed davis, Boban, WCS, Biyambo

Those are just the dudes I can think of still in the nba.

Dude who weren't seen as good or were called busts and took a few years to be seen as useful NBA players.

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Whiteside and Wood are the only examples that are interesting. With all those other guys, they only panned out to be backups. You don't take the time, money, and roster room to train and groom a guy who will ultimately become a backup when you can just sign veteran backups in free agency. Also, most of those guys posted better per minute numbers than Kabengele.

Christian Wood was clearly talented from the get go, but he must have been a real attitude problem because teams kept cutting him even though he was posting spectacular per minute numbers. Kabengele has not posted spectacular per minute numbers. He has posted terrible per minute numbers.

I'll cede that Whiteside is an example of an "exception to the rule". He was a total washout in his first stint, matured after playing overseas a bit, and suddenly became a real force - though he still lacks the bball IQ to be a reliable starter. But at least Whiteside was a freak physical specimen with the physical potential to dominate the league. He's 7-0 with a 7-7 wingspan. It's worth taking a little more time with a guy like that. Kabengele has just a run-of-the-mill NBA center body type, 6-10 with a 7-3 wingspan.

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