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Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon

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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1281 » by dckingsfan » Tue Mar 25, 2025 12:23 am

badinage wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:Well, for all intestinal purposes, Deni's game last night was meh. 17, 11 & 4. I thought he was "feeling" the 3 to much 6 of his 16 shots.

And I will bitvch a bit about Portland, Deni went turbo several times and his teammates didn't run with him. He would have had double the assists (this is just coaching).


17-11-4 = meh.

Hilarious.

If that’s an off-game, that’s someone you’d want to build around. (Not saying that that’s a top dog, but a guy to be part of a young core, to invest in and grow with).

Yeah, he didn't take over the game which he could have. And he doesn't seem to be able to "will" his team to run with him. Maybe he will be able to do that in a year or two?

So, that is a 3rd option on a very good team to me... still. For the purposes of my intestines, it still gives me heart burn.
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1282 » by Kanyewest » Tue Mar 25, 2025 12:25 am

The Consiglieri wrote:
Kanyewest wrote:
NatP4 wrote:The only part of any rationale that made some sense was an all out tank for Cooper Flagg. They will have at most, a 14% chance at the guy, otherwise, absolutely nothing is changing with the direction of this franchise.



True the tank only gets a 14% chance and a 52% chance in the top 4 is equal among the teams in the bottom 4. However the Wizards do guarantee themselves with a top 5 pick. Assuming the Wizards held onto Deni it is possible that the Wizards would have improved significantly much like the Blazers have who already have 11 wins than last season. Yes, other players on the Blazers improved so Deni isn't solely responsible. However, players on the Wizards improved like Jordan Poole not to mention that Deni may have had a better season in Washington had he not had to made the adjustment of playing in a new system.

If Washington had 11 more wins, Washington would find themselves picking in the 8/9 range (I would think that Portland would be worse than Washington, although Washington probably wouldn't be as good as Portland now) . This would only leave the Wizards with a 6-7 % chance at a top pick and 20-26%.

But yeah, it looks like the Wizards sold on Deni low. Blazers blogs are calling Deni's contract the best in the NBA.


I have a hard time understanding why people might think the Deni trade was partly motivated by tanking. You can see right here right now:
1.01 Wizards 15-55: 12 games to go
1.02 Jazz: 16-56: 10 games to go
1.03 Hornets: 18-53: 11 games to go
1.04: Pelicans: 19-53: 10 games to go


Just four games separate us from 1.04, instead of 1.01, just 3 games separate us from 1.03, just 1 game separates us from 1.02.

We knew going in a # of teams would be tanking for this years big 3 (now big 4 or 5), and of course for Flagg in particular. that group included all of the above, and the failed tanking efforts of Brooklyn, Toronto, and Portland among others, and as we've seen, the difference between 1.01-1.05 as a scenario and a 1.01-1.08 currently is just four games, just four. While I want the first overal, what I've wanted most since January is a top 4 pick, and as you can see, any small changes, any at all, and us being in the Pelicans or Hornets position was imminently possible, hell 2 overtime losses could have been flipped alone (granted, a shocking 3, and only 3 of our losses out of 55 were actually five point or less losses).

I don't think Deni is the end all be all anything, but was he and his efficiency enough for us to be potentially hunting for our 18th or 19th win right now rather than fifteenth? I can't see why not, and as I referenced last spring, that wonderful cheap deal for Deni would be wasted on us considering we'd be tanking in 2 to 3 of those seasons, maybe all of them.

But yeah, as I always tag it, did we get enough? Not to me, on that contract and doing what he was doing, he was worth far more than an exceptionally late lottery pick, a broken down vet we couldn't flip, a pick five years away and a couple of 2nds. Yeah, I think he was worth assets in '25 or '26, and I'm still pissed we didn't get him, but I'd be more pissed if we kept him and were sitting further down the lottery landscape.


I think this comes down to how much you think Deni would improve the Wizards by as opposed to having Carrington. You are saying that Deni is only worth 4-5 wins. But the Trail Blazers already have 11 more wins than last season with 10 games to go. Yes the Blazers have seen improvement from players like Camera and Scoot. But Poole also saw a big leap. Kuzma/Sarr have been elite tank commanders throughout the season. Deni replacing a lot of those minutes would have lead to more wins.

If Deni is worth only 4-5 wins, then it isn't worth it from a tanking perspective.

For all intensive and pourpoises, I would say Deni is worth 10 wins or more but I could be wrong.
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1283 » by dckingsfan » Tue Mar 25, 2025 12:34 am

Kanyewest wrote:I think this comes down to how much you think Deni would improve the Wizards by as opposed to having Carrington. You are saying that Deni is only worth 4-5 wins. But the Trail Blazers already have 11 more wins than last season with 10 games to go. Yes the Blazers have seen improvement from players like Camera and Scoot. But Poole also saw a big leap. Kuzma/Sarr have been elite tank commanders throughout the season.

Great question, I will take the affirmative with the notion that they would have been no worse than the 5th seed.

Deni would have/could have still seen reduced minutes at the beginning of the season due to tank commander Kuzma.

Deni would have/could have still seen reduced minutes at the beginning of the season due to smart coaching and playing the rookies more. Keefe could have also slightly reduced the minutes of Poole and given more minutes to tank commander Bub. Toss and little Johnny Davis in there + take a few more minutes from Jonas at the beginning of the season... and Bob's your uncle you have a solidly poor team with a terrible record.

I fear that the biggest problem is that Sarr, Bilal and George would learn how to not rebound (love the grammar there) like guards.

Reminder: Portland wanted to win and did NOT play their youngsters. Only now are Scoot, Walker and Clingan getting minutes (Sharpe doesn't count in my mind). That is a very big difference in the mindset (IMO).
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1284 » by Kanyewest » Tue Mar 25, 2025 12:36 am

dckingsfan wrote:
Kanyewest wrote:I think this comes down to how much you think Deni would improve the Wizards by as opposed to having Carrington. You are saying that Deni is only worth 4-5 wins. But the Trail Blazers already have 11 more wins than last season with 10 games to go. Yes the Blazers have seen improvement from players like Camera and Scoot. But Poole also saw a big leap. Kuzma/Sarr have been elite tank commanders throughout the season.

Great question, I will take the affirmative with the notion that they would have been no worse than the 5th seed.

Deni would have/could have still seen reduced minutes at the beginning of the season due to tank commander Kuzma.

Deni would have/could have still seen reduced minutes at the beginning of the season due to smart coaching and playing the rookies more. Keefe could have also slightly reduced the minutes of Poole and given more minutes to tank commander Bub. Toss and little Johnny Davis in there + take a few more minutes from Jonas at the beginning of the season... and Bob's your uncle you have a solidly poor team with a terrible record.

I fear that the biggest problem is that Sarr, Bilal and George would learn how to not rebound (love the grammar there) like guards.


I edited my response to conform with the grammar of this thread.
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1285 » by Jay81 » Tue Mar 25, 2025 1:45 am

nate33 wrote:People failed to understand how the flatter lottery odds change the tanking calculus. It’s easy to say that you want to maximize your odds, but the odds difference between the worst and the 4th worst team is almost completely negligible - definitely not significant enough to give away All-Star caliber players just to gain a few paltry percentage points.

Last year, the 9th worst team picked 1st and the 6th worst team picked 3rd.
The year before, the3rd, 4th, and 5th worst teams picked 1st, 2nd, and 3rd respectively.
The year before, the 2nd, 4th, and 7th worst teams picked 1st, 2nd, and 3rd respectively.

In six years of flattened odds, the worst team has never picked first.

Sounds like we are due
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1286 » by doclinkin » Tue Mar 25, 2025 3:21 am

nate33 wrote:People failed to understand how the flatter lottery odds change the tanking calculus. It’s easy to say that you want to maximize your odds, but the odds difference between the worst and the 4th worst team is almost completely negligible - definitely not significant enough to give away All-Star caliber players just to gain a few paltry percentage points.

Last year, the 9th worst team picked 1st and the 6th worst team picked 3rd.
The year before, the3rd, 4th, and 5th worst teams picked 1st, 2nd, and 3rd respectively.
The year before, the 2nd, 4th, and 7th worst teams picked 1st, 2nd, and 3rd respectively.

In six years of flattened odds, the worst team has never picked first.


Picking first is a nice dream. But that's only 14% of the big picture. The point is about committing fully to the draft and shaving absolutely every percentage in your favor. Giving yourself every chance to get lucky. With top 5 picks, two years in a row. You've seen the charts. You know the franchise players are in the top 5, historically. With a steeper drop off after that. We are aiming for that, while making absolutely sure we don't lose a key asset for nothing.

Luck is luck, it works both ways. We had to ensure a top 10 lotto pick this year, and a top 8 pick next year. While somehow still drafting well and adding real talent. We had to add key players that were not instantly making us a better team. Higher upside and potential than box score effect right away. That's a pretty skinny needle to thread.

This year the Blazers went from last in the West to 3 games out of the play-in spot. By adding Deni and a defensive rookie center, plus development from young players. They project to have added +15 wins this year, in the gunfight that is the Western conference. Let's say we kept Deni, and Deni did indeed get better. We ourselves added a defensive center in the draft. And a promising young rookie in Kyshawn. (Even if in that scenario we couldn't find a way to add Bub). We did trade Kuzma, added Middleton and Smart.

Folks in this thread have made the argument that our rookies might have learned quicker and improved by the example of a team oriented guy like Deni. Entirely possible.

So. How much better would we have been with Deni, Smart, Middleton, no Kuzma (who unpredictably had the worst year of his career) no wounded Brogdon. Plus the upgraded Poole who was likely to revert to the mean, at least, after a down year.

And consider the unknowns of the draft at the time of the trade. What if Sarr had the same effect as Clingan. What if whatever guy we drafted in the Gafford spot was an instant success. In a year when everyone else is tanking.

We relied on 4 rookies this year. And started 2nd yr forward Bilal in a spot that Deni would have played. Even if that was worth only a 15 game swing, 30 wins would put a couple games away from the play-in game. We'd have the 8th worst record, which already would put us in jeopardy of losing our pick to New York. This year. Top 10. But if not, say we draft well, you'd hope a top 4 pick would affect the record. And Deni now in his prime. And Bilal hitting his breakout season. In the weakened East. We'd damn sure lose our 2026 pick. And with it, the pick swap with PHX.

Portland this year has a 90% chance of drafting outside the top 10 in the lotto. Mostly by adding Deni and Clingan. Nobody on here argues that Deni is a bad player. What is in debate is whether the long term needs of the team are best served by retaining him, vs committing 100% to the draft process (or 200+% with pick swaps).

The front office took a risk. For a variety of reasons. It was a gamble. They bought into a team that might lose their picks this year and next, which has determined much of the necessary strategy. Deni is good. Maybe eventually all-star good. Over time, with steady incremental improvement. But. We are trying instead to pull off a radical change. A dynasty level change. By adding top 5 players in back to back years of two of the strongest drafts in decades. It's worth trying.
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1287 » by gambitx777 » Tue Mar 25, 2025 7:48 am

doclinkin wrote:
nate33 wrote:People failed to understand how the flatter lottery odds change the tanking calculus. It’s easy to say that you want to maximize your odds, but the odds difference between the worst and the 4th worst team is almost completely negligible - definitely not significant enough to give away All-Star caliber players just to gain a few paltry percentage points.

Last year, the 9th worst team picked 1st and the 6th worst team picked 3rd.
The year before, the3rd, 4th, and 5th worst teams picked 1st, 2nd, and 3rd respectively.
The year before, the 2nd, 4th, and 7th worst teams picked 1st, 2nd, and 3rd respectively.

In six years of flattened odds, the worst team has never picked first.


Picking first is a nice dream. But that's only 14% of the big picture. The point is about committing fully to the draft and shaving absolutely every percentage in your favor. Giving yourself every chance to get lucky. With top 5 picks, two years in a row. You've seen the charts. You know the franchise players are in the top 5, historically. With a steeper drop off after that. We are aiming for that, while making absolutely sure we don't lose a key asset for nothing.

Luck is luck, it works both ways. We had to ensure a top 10 lotto pick this year, and a top 8 pick next year. While somehow still drafting well and adding real talent. We had to add key players that were not instantly making us a better team. Higher upside and potential than box score effect right away. That's a pretty skinny needle to thread.

This year the Blazers went from last in the West to 3 games out of the play-in spot. By adding Deni and a defensive rookie center, plus development from young players. They project to have added +15 wins this year, in the gunfight that is the Western conference. Let's say we kept Deni, and Deni did indeed get better. We ourselves added a defensive center in the draft. And a promising young rookie in Kyshawn. (Even if in that scenario we couldn't find a way to add Bub). We did trade Kuzma, added Middleton and Smart.

Folks in this thread have made the argument that our rookies might have learned quicker and improved by the example of a team oriented guy like Deni. Entirely possible.

So. How much better would we have been with Deni, Smart, Middleton, no Kuzma (who unpredictably had the worst year of his career) no wounded Brogdon. Plus the upgraded Poole who was likely to revert to the mean, at least, after a down year.

And consider the unknowns of the draft at the time of the trade. What if Sarr had the same effect as Clingan. What if whatever guy we drafted in the Gafford spot was an instant success. In a year when everyone else is tanking.

We relied on 4 rookies this year. And started 2nd yr forward Bilal in a spot that Deni would have played. Even if that was worth only a 15 game swing, 30 wins would put a couple games away from the play-in game. We'd have the 8th worst record, which already would put us in jeopardy of losing our pick to New York. This year. Top 10. But if not, say we draft well, you'd hope a top 4 pick would affect the record. And Deni now in his prime. And Bilal hitting his breakout season. In the weakened East. We'd damn sure lose our 2026 pick. And with it, the pick swap with PHX.

Portland this year has a 90% chance of drafting outside the top 10 in the lotto. Mostly by adding Deni and Clingan. Nobody on here argues that Deni is a bad player. What is in debate is whether the long term needs of the team are best served by retaining him, vs committing 100% to the draft process (or 200+% with pick swaps).

The front office took a risk. For a variety of reasons. It was a gamble. They bought into a team that might lose their picks this year and next, which has determined much of the necessary strategy. Deni is good. Maybe eventually all-star good. Over time, with steady incremental improvement. But. We are trying instead to pull off a radical change. A dynasty level change. By adding top 5 players in back to back years of two of the strongest drafts in decades. It's worth trying.
Really thoughtful post! A+ !

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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1288 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Tue Mar 25, 2025 8:09 am

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/avdijde01/splits/2025

March (10 games) Deni Avdija game averages

23.0 points /10.2 rebounds / 5.4 assists
.511 fg /.483 3pt / .845 ft

Another fine mess the Wizards have made of things.
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1289 » by TGW » Tue Mar 25, 2025 1:16 pm

There's no way Deni would change the trajectory of this terrible ass Gizzards team. I'm not buying that one.
Some random troll wrote:Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster.
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1290 » by payitforward » Tue Mar 25, 2025 2:06 pm

doclinkin wrote:
nate33 wrote:...You know the franchise players are in the top 5, historically....

Good Lord, doc! You know perfectly well how misleading that statement is.

Here are the guys taken at #4 or #5 over 15 years. I've bolded the good players -- guys whose productivity has been consistently above average over their careers. Only about 1 of every 3 players picked at #4 or #5 actually make it to become *good* NBA players at all. Let alone "franchise players."

Eddy Curry
Jason Richardson
Drew Gooden
Nikoloz Tskitishvili
Chris Bosh
Dwyane Wade
Shaun Livingston
Devin Harris
Chris Paul
Raymond Felton
Tyrus Thomas
Shelden Williams
Mike Conley
Jeff Green
Russell Westbrook
Kevin Love
Tyreke Evans
Ricky Rubio
Wesley Johnson
DeMarcus Cousins
Tristan Thompson
Jonas Valanciunas
Dion Waiters
Thomas Robinson
Cody Zeller
Alex Len
Aaron Gordon
Dante Exum
Kristaps Porzingis
Mario Hezonja
Dragan Bender
Kris Dunn
Josh Jackson
DeAaron Fox
Jarren Jackson Jr.
Trae Young
De’Andre Hunter
Darius Garland
Patrick Williams
Isaac Okoro
Scottie Barnes
Jalen Suggs
Keegan Murray
Jaden Ivey
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1291 » by nate33 » Tue Mar 25, 2025 2:07 pm

doclinkin wrote:Picking first is a nice dream. But that's only 14% of the big picture. The point is about committing fully to the draft and shaving absolutely every percentage in your favor. Giving yourself every chance to get lucky. With top 5 picks, two years in a row. You've seen the charts. You know the franchise players are in the top 5, historically. With a steeper drop off after that. We are aiming for that, while making absolutely sure we don't lose a key asset for nothing.


I think the perception of a rapid dropoff is overstated. There are definitely more All-NBA players in the top 3 or 4, but the dropoff from 5 through 10 is pretty gradual and slow. There's a massive drop off from 11 to about 13 at which point the odds of landing an All-NBA player stay pretty flat throughout the rest of the first round. Here's a chart of the odds of landing an All-NBA player with each draft pick. These odds are 3-pick moving averages encompassing the odds of the indicated pick, the pick before and pick after to deal with the wild fluctuations from the small sample size.

Image

What I am saying is that finishing anywhere in the bottom 3 gives you the exact same odds of landing a top 4 pick, and even finishing 4th worst gives you only marginally worse odds of landing a top 4 pick. And if you don't land the top pick and are then queued among the lottery losers in order of record, the distinction between 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th is negligible.

People are overestimating the advantages of tanking in two different respects. First they aren't factoring the degree to which the flattening of the odds reduces the advantage of picking 3rd or 4th relative to 1st or 2nd. And second, they aren't factoring the extremely minimal dropoff in talent once you fall out of the top 4. The draft is really just 3 tiers: the top 4, the 5-12 range, and 13-30.

The advantages from finishing dead last or second to last rather than third last or fourth last are really very, very small and not worth giving away good young talent. I'd much rather have Deni and the 4th-worst record, than no Deni and the worst record. And next year, I'd much rather have Deni and pick 8th than no Deni and pick 5th. (I'll cede that it would be a catastrophe if we ended up giving up our 2026 pick altogether, but I think it's easy to tank your way to a bottom 7 finish even if you have some talent. Look at what Philly and Toronto are doing right now.)
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1292 » by payitforward » Tue Mar 25, 2025 2:11 pm

doclinkin wrote:...Nobody on here argues that Deni is a bad player. What is in debate is whether the long term needs of the team are best served by retaining him, vs committing 100% to the draft process (or 200+% with pick swaps).

Bingo! The key point.

& by "long term needs" what is meant is the chance to contend for a title. That's the game here. Not "be respectable."

I.e. --
doclinkin wrote:...We are trying... to pull off a radical change. A dynasty level change.... It's worth trying.

damn straight it is.
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1293 » by J-Ves » Tue Mar 25, 2025 2:21 pm

payitforward wrote:
doclinkin wrote:
nate33 wrote:...You know the franchise players are in the top 5, historically....

Good Lord, doc! You know perfectly well how misleading that statement is.

Here are the guys taken at #4 or #5 over 15 years. I've bolded the good players -- guys whose productivity has been consistently above average over their careers. Only about 1 of every 3 players picked at #4 or #5 actually make it to become *good* NBA players at all. Let alone "franchise players."

Eddy Curry
Jason Richardson
Drew Gooden
Nikoloz Tskitishvili
Chris Bosh
Dwyane Wade
Shaun Livingston
Devin Harris
Chris Paul
Raymond Felton
Tyrus Thomas
Shelden Williams
Mike Conley
Jeff Green
Russell Westbrook
Kevin Love
Tyreke Evans
Ricky Rubio
Wesley Johnson
DeMarcus Cousins
Tristan Thompson
Jonas Valanciunas
Dion Waiters
Thomas Robinson
Cody Zeller
Alex Len
Aaron Gordon
Dante Exum
Kristaps Porzingis
Mario Hezonja
Dragan Bender
Kris Dunn
Josh Jackson
DeAaron Fox
Jarren Jackson Jr.
Trae Young
De’Andre Hunter
Darius Garland
Patrick Williams
Isaac Okoro
Scottie Barnes
Jalen Suggs
Keegan Murray
Jaden Ivey

The Zinger isn’t a good player?
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1294 » by pcbothwel » Tue Mar 25, 2025 2:23 pm

TGW wrote:There's no way Deni would change the trajectory of this terrible ass Gizzards team. I'm not buying that one.


Its hard to say because of the fallout.
e.g. Does Kuz get moved instead of Deni?
George and Bilal were also pretty bad while Kuz was out.
With no Bub, does Jared Butler get more minutes?

So assume Deni takes all of Kuz's minutes and the rest (70/30) between Geroge and Bilal.
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1295 » by payitforward » Tue Mar 25, 2025 2:34 pm

If anything, nate is understating the randomness of the relationship between pick position & truly outstanding, top of the heap performance.

The 3 best players in the league right now might well be SG-A (#12 pick), Jokic (#42 pick), & Giannis (#15 pick).

Most people would add Luka (sure!). & it's starting to look like we should also add Amen Thompson.

At the same time, fans are shallow: they almost always overrate players based purely on how many points a game they score. This leads them to leave out guys who affect wins in other ways, to underrate those guys: Josh Hart, Jarrett Allen, Walker Kessler, Jalen Duren, Brandon Clarke, Tari Eason.

How many of you have any idea of what Ty Jerome is putting up in Cleveland this year?
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1296 » by payitforward » Tue Mar 25, 2025 2:36 pm

J-Ves wrote:
payitforward wrote:
doclinkin wrote:

Good Lord, doc! You know perfectly well how misleading that statement is.

Here are the guys taken at #4 or #5 over 15 years. I've bolded the good players -- guys whose productivity has been consistently above average over their careers. Only about 1 of every 3 players picked at #4 or #5 actually make it to become *good* NBA players at all. Let alone "franchise players."

Eddy Curry
Jason Richardson
Drew Gooden
Nikoloz Tskitishvili
Chris Bosh
Dwyane Wade
Shaun Livingston
Devin Harris
Chris Paul
Raymond Felton
Tyrus Thomas
Shelden Williams
Mike Conley
Jeff Green
Russell Westbrook
Kevin Love
Tyreke Evans
Ricky Rubio
Wesley Johnson
DeMarcus Cousins
Tristan Thompson
Jonas Valanciunas
Dion Waiters
Thomas Robinson
Cody Zeller
Alex Len
Aaron Gordon
Dante Exum
Kristaps Porzingis
Mario Hezonja
Dragan Bender
Kris Dunn
Josh Jackson
DeAaron Fox
Jarren Jackson Jr.
Trae Young
De’Andre Hunter
Darius Garland
Patrick Williams
Isaac Okoro
Scottie Barnes
Jalen Suggs
Keegan Murray
Jaden Ivey

The Zinger isn’t a good player?

One of the most talented players in the game! Now go look at how many games he's missed, how many short or missing seasons. This ain't a beauty contest. Your effect on results is what makes you great. KP will always have a larger than average "coulda shoulda woulda" profile.
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1297 » by DCZards » Tue Mar 25, 2025 2:47 pm

J-Ves wrote:
payitforward wrote:
doclinkin wrote:

Good Lord, doc! You know perfectly well how misleading that statement is.

Here are the guys taken at #4 or #5 over 15 years. I've bolded the good players -- guys whose productivity has been consistently above average over their careers. Only about 1 of every 3 players picked at #4 or #5 actually make it to become *good* NBA players at all. Let alone "franchise players."

Eddy Curry
Jason Richardson
Drew Gooden
Nikoloz Tskitishvili
Chris Bosh
Dwyane Wade
Shaun Livingston
Devin Harris
Chris Paul
Raymond Felton
Tyrus Thomas
Shelden Williams
Mike Conley
Jeff Green
Russell Westbrook
Kevin Love
Tyreke Evans
Ricky Rubio
Wesley Johnson
DeMarcus Cousins
Tristan Thompson
Jonas Valanciunas
Dion Waiters
Thomas Robinson
Cody Zeller
Alex Len
Aaron Gordon
Dante Exum
Kristaps Porzingis
Mario Hezonja
Dragan Bender
Kris Dunn
Josh Jackson
DeAaron Fox
Jarren Jackson Jr.
Trae Young
De’Andre Hunter
Darius Garland
Patrick Williams
Isaac Okoro
Scottie Barnes
Jalen Suggs
Keegan Murray
Jaden Ivey

The Zinger isn’t a good player?

Zinger, Cousins, Gordon, and Richardson are (or were) all good NBA players. Hunter and Ivey will be as well.
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1298 » by dckingsfan » Tue Mar 25, 2025 3:10 pm

Solid debate both for and against. And some solid education on the flattening of the lottery as well.
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1299 » by queridiculo » Tue Mar 25, 2025 3:50 pm

Awful trade is an awful trade is an awful trade.

We'll still be talking about this deal by the team this franchise is looking for a new GM.
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1300 » by Kanyewest » Tue Mar 25, 2025 4:05 pm

nate33 wrote:
doclinkin wrote:Picking first is a nice dream. But that's only 14% of the big picture. The point is about committing fully to the draft and shaving absolutely every percentage in your favor. Giving yourself every chance to get lucky. With top 5 picks, two years in a row. You've seen the charts. You know the franchise players are in the top 5, historically. With a steeper drop off after that. We are aiming for that, while making absolutely sure we don't lose a key asset for nothing.


I think the perception of a rapid dropoff is overstated. There are definitely more All-NBA players in the top 3 or 4, but the dropoff from 5 through 10 is pretty gradual and slow. There's a massive drop off from 11 to about 13 at which point the odds of landing an All-Star stay pretty flat throughout the rest of the first round. Here's a chart of the odds of landing an All-NBA player with each draft pick. These odds are 3-pick moving averages encompassing the odds of the indicated pick, the pick before and pick after to deal with the wild fluctuations from the small sample size.

Image

What I am saying is that finishing anywhere in the bottom 3 gives you the exact same odds of landing a top 4 pick, and even finishing 4th worst gives you only marginally worse odds of landing a top 4 pick. And if you don't land the top pick and are then queued among the lottery losers in order of record, the distinction between 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th is negligible.

People are overestimating the advantages of tanking in two different respects. First they aren't factoring the degree to which the flattening of the odds reduces the advantage of picking 3rd or 4th relative to 1st or 2nd. And second, they aren't factoring the extremely minimal dropoff in talent once you fall out of the top 4. The draft is really just 3 tiers: the top 4, the 5-12 range, and 13-30.

The advantages from finishing dead last or second to last rather than third last or fourth last are really very, very small and not worth giving away good young talent. I'd much rather have Deni and the 4th-worst record, than no Deni and the worst record. And next year, I'd much rather have Deni and pick 8th than no Deni and pick 5th. (I'll cede that it would be a catastrophe if we ended up giving up our 2026 pick altogether, but I think it's easy to tank your way to a bottom 7 finish even if you have some talent. Look at what Philly and Toronto are doing right now.)


A couple of things

1) How much do you think the Blazers improved from having Deni vs. not having him? Right now the Blazers already have 11 more wins than last season. Yes players like Scoot and Camera are better than last year- then again Jordan Poole's improvement is significant so much so that I think he should be considered for most improved. While I don't think adding Deni on good team would improve them by that much, I do believe that adding Deni to a bottom 4 team would improve them in the neighborhood 8-11 wins (the Blazers may be on an improvement of 15-16 wins when it is all said and done) (maybe the Jazz have shown they are experts in the tanking arts though). If Deni were to remain on the Wizards, it may be more because the Wizards were worse so their room for improvement is larger, and Deni doesn't have to transition to the Trail Blazers where he had a slow start. Of course there are other factors in play like perhaps Billups is a better coach that Keefe (although the numbers that Deni were posting with Keefe to close out the season were also very good)

2) If the Wizards did not improve significantly like the Blazers did, how much do you think Deni's value would have improved? Certainly, Deni's trade value has increased immensely with the Trail Blazers but it is also seen with the lens that the Blazers were playing winning . I think good teams clearly undervalued Deni last season but I'm not sure there would be a market correction either if the Wizards were a bottom 4 team. Which brings me to...

3) The Wizards theoretically would need to move on from Deni anyways for the 2026 tank in order to keep their pick (although perhaps this strategy would be abandoned if they win the Flagg sweepstakes).

4) I think we may agree that the tanking strategy may be slightly overrated with the tanking odds. Still, the Wizards have already employed this strategy by trading Beal and KP and in some cases for not optimal value in the present (although maybe some of the Suns swaps are looking juicy). The Wizards front office also apparently sees some statistical differences in picks in the top 10 given that they trade 2nd rounders to move up 1 spot to select Bilal. Every draft is different - ie I remember there was significant drop off in the 2022 draft from picking Dyson Daniels vs picking Johnny Davis.

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