Political Roundtable - Part VI

[hands11]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jd-iaYLO1A&feature=share[/youtube]

House Rules change Oct 1. Wonder why

Who is this drone sitting in the chair ? Talk about your government takeovers. Sedition

[dckingsfan]

I forget. Why should the Dems give up stuff in this process again ? What are the Rs giving up ?

Hopefully it isn't about parties giving stuff up. It is about living within your means right? Both parties should want to do that... we can't really keep spending on the trajectory we are spending - on anything. So both parties need to give stuff up without adding on.

[Nivek]

I forget. Why should the Dems give up stuff in this process again ? What are the Rs giving up ?

Hopefully it isn't about parties giving stuff up. It is about living within your means right? Both parties should want to do that... we can't really keep spending on the trajectory we are spending - on anything. So both parties need to give stuff up without adding on.

In this current issue, it is about "giving stuff up" because everything we're seeing is pure political theater. The Tea Party caucus of the House has shut down the government and is willing to risk default to get "stuff" they want. "Stuff" they can't get by passing a bill in the House, getting it through the Senate and getting it signed into law by the president. What they're attempting to do is a straight power grab -- power they haven't "earned" by winning enough elections to have the votes necessary to implement their will.

For the president and the Senate Dems to "give stuff up" at this point would legitimize the tactic and set the precedent for any minority faction in Congress. Don't get your way with voters? Just hijack the government and threaten to torpedo the world economy until you do.

Now, I agree fully with the idea that federal spending is unsustainable long-term. I'm in favor of the elected officials working together to assemble a feasible budget plan that will address longer term issues. But not with one side bound by some ridiculous notion of ideological "purity." And not with one side willing to trash everything to get their way.

[hands11]

I forget. Why should the Dems give up stuff in this process again ? What are the Rs giving up ?

Hopefully it isn't about parties giving stuff up. It is about living within your means right? Both parties should want to do that... we can't really keep spending on the trajectory we are spending - on anything. So both parties need to give stuff up without adding on.

This isn't about negotiating the budget. This is about doing Congress 101. Keeping the government open and paying our bills congress already appropriated. They have to do that first, then they can negotiate over the budget. The very thing they could have been doing since March if the Rs in the house would just do Congress 101. This is and always has been about the Rs and the struggle over who runs their party. And American is being taken hostage as they try to figure it out. No amount of day is going to change that. Just like no amount of years is going to put the Bush ( and those that voted for him ) debt on anyone else but who created it. Once that debt is put in the system, it stays there until paid off. We are still carrying debt from WWII so clearly we are still carrying debt from the Bush busted economic policies. Just another failed R talking point when they say, how long are we going to blame this on Bush. Answer - his mess will always be his mess. Now get out of the way so we can fix it.

So Senate released a plan. House already trying to change it so the latest news is NO DEAL. And times running out. Anything that going to get done has to still clear the house, then senate then get singed. That takes days. And only 38 hours left.

Get ready for the markets to drop.

Only remaining question is Boehner just keeping his game face on and will step in to put a clean CR on the floor before this all blows up or is he really a coward or a Zealot who has drinking the Tea.

I thought the dem had a procedural plan to bring a vote to the floor that they should be able to do about now. What happened to that.

[hands11]

Wow. House still living in denial promoting a message that, hey, if we send the Senate a bill that has stuff in it that we now the Senate won't except and they don't pass it, then the debt ceiling getting busted is on them and the President, not us.



Wow. This people are really just dangerously insane. They still are holding a fun to the hostages head. Even at this late hour.

Sarah already out saying if anything get done that doesn't come through the house, the President should be impeached. Hmm. Didn't see that one coming.. NOT

At what point do we need to start arresting these right wing nut jobs for treason and ban then from microphone access through out news outlets.

[dckingsfan]

I get the politics... and the political theatre by both sides to raise money and energize their base.

Regardless - both sides need to start giving up stuff without taking - or we are going to be in pretty bad shape. The fringe on both sides are ruling the debate. Neither side represents the majority of Americans. Both sides need to come to the middle to make this work - and neither are moving.

For the Cruz to want to shut down the ACA was silly/stupid. For Reid to not be willing to reduce long-term entitlement spending is equally silly/stupid. For Reid to come out to repeal the sequester to keep the government open is past silly. Boehner has no control of the fringe in the house. Obama doesn't negotiate with terrorist Republicans. Basically their is a leadership void.

We have a real spending issue - and both sides have the heads in the sand. Military spending, program spending, entitlement spending all need to continue to be reduced to have a sustainable government. And the fringe elements in both parties don't want that debate to happen.

[hands11]

I get the politics... and the political theatre by both sides to raise money and energize their base.

Regardless - both sides need to start giving up stuff without taking - or we are going to be in pretty bad shape. The fringe on both sides are ruling the debate. Neither side represents the majority of Americans. Both sides need to come to the middle to make this work - and neither are moving.

For the Cruz to want to shut down the ACA was silly/stupid. For Reid to not be willing to reduce long-term entitlement spending is equally silly/stupid. For Reid to come out to repeal the sequester to keep the government open is past silly. Boehner has no control of the fringe in the house. Obama doesn't negotiate with terrorist Republicans. Basically their is a leadership void.

We have a real spending issue - and both sides have the heads in the sand. Military spending, program spending, entitlement spending all need to continue to be reduced to have a sustainable government. And the fringe elements in both parties don't want that debate to happen.

Sorry, I don't see that at all. There is plenty of leadership from the Dems. But you can't negotiate with crazy people who think the debt limit doesn't matter and don't think there is any limit to how long politics should get played. At some point, you lick your wounds and move on.

You must be losing focus on just how simple this is to solve and whats stopping the system from working.

All we are talking about at a min is to keep the government open until Nov 15th at R requested funding levels and for the Rs to raise the debt limit past the deadline. That is on them to do. Dems have done their jobs.

They don't get to do an end around on our basic democratic process to extract stuff they don't have support to extract. They can try. But at the end of the day, if they fail, they still have to do the min I posted above.

That has nothing to do with the Dems at this point. NOTHING .. There is no balance of blame here.

If the Rs want to do the min they need to do to keep the government open and raise the debt limit, they need to do that first, then come back and try to slam the Dems for delaying progress.

Again, Rs can try whatever tricks but when they don't work, you can't then say, hey, these tricks have to work and if they don't, we are both to blame. Doesn't work that way. Rs poisoned the well from the start by trying to take down the ACA in relation to this other basic stuff. They also got us here but not going to budget conference starting back in March and rejecting doing so 21 times. They also did it by sending endless gimmick bills to the Senate they know wouldn't pass.

This is on the Rs. There is no balance of blame here. Only stuff I have read that even starts to show how both have blame requires totally changing the facts posted above by trying to change the debate to something else that it isn't. Its called spin at a min. At its worse its propaganda and brainwashing.

[Nivek]

I agree dckingsfan. I'd like to see DISCUSSION and DEBATE about spending levels, not a negotiation. It shouldn't be a "you get this and I get that" give and take, but a sober look at what's actually best for the country. Politics is too much about the game of amassing, expanding and maintaining power, and too little about figuring out how to make the country a better place.

[dckingsfan]

I agree dckingsfan. I'd like to see DISCUSSION and DEBATE about spending levels, not a negotiation. It shouldn't be a "you get this and I get that" give and take, but a sober look at what's actually best for the country. Politics is too much about the game of amassing, expanding and maintaining power, and too little about figuring out how to make the country a better place.

Bingo - and therein lies the leadership vacuum.

[W. Unseld]

I'd like to see all of these negotiations broadcast on C-SPAN as we were promised the Affordable Care Act would be.

[dckingsfan]

That has nothing to do with the Dems at this point. NOTHING .. There is no balance of blame here.

Sorry, we didn't get to this point in a vacuum - and I am not talking about the short-term keeping the government open. Both parties are equally to blame - now they have to sit down and get us out of this spending mess.

[Nivek]

Yeah, if we're talking strictly about the shutdown and the threat of default -- i.e., the current "crisis" -- responsibility lies squarely on the GOP side of things. If we're talking about the country's long-term spending/budget issues -- then both parties share responsibility equally enough that any distinction is meaningless.

The time for working out a long-term resolution is NOT when one side is essentially holding a gun to economy's head.

[dckingsfan]

True Nivek.

I have been trying to figure out what crisis will finally bring both sides to the table - and haven't seen that magic moment yet.

[Induveca]

I get the politics... and the political theatre by both sides to raise money and energize their base.

Regardless - both sides need to start giving up stuff without taking - or we are going to be in pretty bad shape. The fringe on both sides are ruling the debate. Neither side represents the majority of Americans. Both sides need to come to the middle to make this work - and neither are moving.

For the Cruz to want to shut down the ACA was silly/stupid. For Reid to not be willing to reduce long-term entitlement spending is equally silly/stupid. For Reid to come out to repeal the sequester to keep the government open is past silly. Boehner has no control of the fringe in the house. Obama doesn't negotiate with terrorist Republicans. Basically their is a leadership void.

We have a real spending issue - and both sides have the heads in the sand. Military spending, program spending, entitlement spending all need to continue to be reduced to have a sustainable government. And the fringe elements in both parties don't want that debate to happen.

You've successfully said what many others have tried and failed on this board. Sincere thanks.

[hands11]

I agree dckingsfan. I'd like to see DISCUSSION and DEBATE about spending levels, not a negotiation. It shouldn't be a "you get this and I get that" give and take, but a sober look at what's actually best for the country. Politics is too much about the game of amassing, expanding and maintaining power, and too little about figuring out how to make the country a better place.

Bingo - and therein lies the leadership vacuum.

Again, where is the lack of leadership? How would you have gotten to TPs to negotiate in good faith given what they wanted, which was a government shut down or repealing the ACA? It can't be done.

Only way to move forward with these people is to go through what we are going through so they are removed from office. Then you can negotiate with people that are actually willing to negotiate. Hell, as much as I dislike McConnel, at least he know when to stop playing around. He and Reid got a deal done. But the House is just stuck on stupid.

You can't negotiate with them, because they wont acknowledge that they ran on a platform to do what they are trying to do and lost the national election over it. Usually that means something to a political party. These people don't care. Well the result for that is you lose more seats and you end up with less power. Sadly we have to live through this until that happens because it takes time. The house has 2 year terms.

Only other option is to start kicking some of them out of office based on legal constitutional issues.

[hands11]

That has nothing to do with the Dems at this point. NOTHING .. There is no balance of blame here.

Sorry, we didn't get to this point in a vacuum - and I am not talking about the short-term keeping the government open. Both parties are equally to blame - now they have to sit down and get us out of this spending mess.

Ok, I'm all ears. Please detail how they are both equally to blame for. Please use facts. Because I have detailed how they aren't equally to blame for this shutdown, the debt ceiling, the debt and the wars we entered.

I'm tried to these talking point platitudes

Their both equally to blame for ... fill in the blank.

[hands11]

True Nivek.

I have been trying to figure out what crisis will finally bring both sides to the table - and haven't seen that magic moment yet.

A Zombie invasion perhaps. That or Jesus returning.

Other then that, its going to take Boehner steeping up to the Tea People and being a Patriot. If not that, it going to take a few TP financial bombs busting a few wholes in the side of our National ship such that we start taking on water before more extreme measures kick in to save us from these political terrorist.

[dckingsfan]

Sorry Hands... I was talking about the debt crisis, not this convoluted near-term manufactured "crisis"...

I am pretty sure you would agree that both parties brought us the debt problem? Or do you just blame the Republicans for all the debt? I don't - I blame both parties equally for getting us in this mess. And both parties for not being able to work together to get us out of the mess.

[hands11]

Sorry Hands... I was talking about the debt crisis, not this convoluted near-term manufactured "crisis"...

I am pretty sure you would agree that both parties brought us the debt problem? Or do you just blame the Republicans for all the debt? I don't - I blame both parties equally for getting us in this mess. And both parties for not being able to work together to get us out of the mess.

Again, I try to base my view in factual history so...

I blame the party that blow the annual surplus. I already went through all the ways that did that. And on purpose. They ran an election misguiding people to vote for their own selfishness. The man that won said he was going to give the surplus back ... demanding a refund for the voters.

You can do your own reach or just read the facts I post with included links. The annual surplus was so good, everything was funded. They even had started a rainy day fund. It was so good, they were worried they would pay things down to quick and bust the bond markets language they were using was something like, the expirable debt.

How did they do it? A war they lied to get into. Its documented Bush wanted to go in. Lied to us. Lied to the UN. And invade a country that didnt attack up. And dont forget he was incompetent if you believe he ignored the daily briefing. Thats the best cause scenario. Incompetent about the troop level and fired a general over it I believe. I just recently posted the cost and how they said it would pay for itself. But those are details right.

Then his unpaid for tax expenditure that transferred money to the rich. Then more tax cuts. And did it during a war. Research how many times that has happened. Then a perception benefit that was unpaid for in an attempt to buy more votes. Money and benefits to everyone and none of it paid for.

Those are all facts. That was all Republican driven. They not only lead it, but they jammed it down our throats and control with 6 years of the house and 4 of the senate. So it you think all the crazy that is going on is just the crazy TPs, your way off. Rs were nuts even before the TPs. The TPs were always there anyway. They were Rs before they where TP/Rs

So yes, I do blame one party for this mess. Specially when you go back to Reagan and look at the debt to GDP numbers. Specially when it documented this was Reagan strategy. Specially when we went throw the processs of recovering from Reagan/Bush 1 and handed over a wet dream of a surplus back to the Rs who screwed it up worse the 2nd time then they did the first time.

What baffles me is why people ignore the facts when they are so clear and documented.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-pkkmkWVbkLo/T ... urplus.gif

Its both side fault sounds fair, but how do you ignore the actual facts that state otherwise. Show me the fact based case to support your claim. I have been making mine and its seems crystal clear. People act like its not possible to be one sides fault. Why ? Specially when they had the motivation to do it. Which they outlined dating back the Reagan.

[dckingsfan]

Sorry budget deficits started before Reagan, it was just politics as usual as both parties were willing to spend more than they had. Republicans on the defense infrastructure and democrats on their pet programs. It started way before Bush, before Reagan... and just built on itself.

Clinton got bailed out by a bubble that blew up after he left. Or are you going to blame that on the Republicans? Who wanted everyone to have a house and manipulated the system for easy credit?

Reagan traded horse traded with Tip to get what he wanted even though it blew up the budget. Both sides were very satisfied.

The real problem is when citizens fail to see both sides - fail to understand it is both parties that dug the hole. Then we can just sit and castigate the side we don't like as we all slide into the abyss.