ImageImageImageImageImage

Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV

Moderators: LyricalRico, nate33, montestewart

hands11
Banned User
Posts: 31,171
And1: 2,444
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1321 » by hands11 » Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:40 am

nate33 wrote:
Nivek wrote:I saw a poll earlier today saying that 50% of uncommitted voters thought Biden won vs. 31% for Ryan.

The poll I saw, a CNN poll of undecideds, said that Ryan won 48% to 44%.


Two weeks ago, Republicans didn't believe in polls. Now I guess they are a good resource.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/170518/po ... ided-vote#

Now to what really matters, the polls: The key “instant poll” from CBS, among 500 undecided voters, Biden wins 50 percent to 31 percent. (Romney had won easily last week.) Asked whom they could relate to, Biden won; he also was seen as more ready to be president. Some 85 percent said Biden knowledgeable and 75 percent said the same of Ryan.

CNN/ORC instant poll of registered voters gives Ryan the win by 48 percent–44 percent. But only 381 surveyed, so a high 5 percent margin of error. CNN called it a draw. I had warned during debate Ryan would do better than you might think, since he was getting killed on substance, due to Biden’s “laughing” etc. Yes, GOPers and Fox going overboard on that, but did affect folks in middle.

[[UPDATE: CNN on their site just admitted that the sample for their poll was “a debate audience that was more Republican than the country.” Sample was 33 percent GOP and 31 percent Dem. CNN spokesman: “That indicates that the sample of debate watchers is more Republican than an average of recent CNN polls of all Americans.” They revealed last week—also belatedly—that their sample was similarly skewed but few paid attention because of Romney's wide margin of victory. Note: all major national polls always sample a few more Democrats because they do top Repubs in registration numbers. ]]
montestewart
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 14,801
And1: 7,928
Joined: Feb 25, 2009

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1322 » by montestewart » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:31 am

nate33 wrote:
Nivek wrote:I saw a poll earlier today saying that 50% of uncommitted voters thought Biden won vs. 31% for Ryan.

The poll I saw, a CNN poll of undecideds, said that Ryan won 48% to 44%.

I only watched like the last 15 minutes (and only because that was the only way to hang out with my wife) and it looked pretty even to me, Biden scoring some good emotional and critical points, but also looking a little too dismissive and attacking and occasionally looking a little doddering, Ryan showing some level of command of a range of topics and looking somewhat unflappable, but sometimes looking like a deer in headlights and sounding very mechanical and scripted. His answer to the question from the soldier about the level of negative political campaigning hilariously topped even Biden's hardly responsive answer. Both of them were pretty short on specifics. Same old.
hands11
Banned User
Posts: 31,171
And1: 2,444
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1323 » by hands11 » Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:09 pm

I heard a conversation talking the format of the debates in general and just how wrong they are doing it.

In general they were saying, the debate format in general is off from what would really benefit us the viewer to evaluate what we need to know about these people positions, the effects of their policies and the team they will govern with. Its more of a acting exercise. We are not electing a debater and chief. Presidents don't do one on one debates as main activity of their office and they don't govern individually. Even House members and Senators when they are talking on the floor have staff members right there feeding them numbers and handing them papers.

A president is a decider. A policy leader. A team leader. Not a one on one debater. The debates as they are contribute to a misrepresentation of what the job really is. Its not one person with a mountain of memorized facts forced to come up with answers on the spot. There is a team of people with information that present it to the president who asks questions and then make a final decision. When he or a cabinet member travels over seas they have their team with them. The job isn't Jeopardy. Its more like it's Academic.

We need to vet their policy positions and facts. They should have more debates. They should include more people and cover less topics in each debate. The economy and economics is a debate. Foreign policy is a debate. Civil rights, Immigration, laws, legalization issues, the supreme court, voting rights is a debate.

For a foreign policy debate, I want to see Obama, Hilliary and Biden up there together against Mitt and whoever his advocators/future cabinet people are. As it is, we know the entire Obama team. Lets see the Mitt team. This would also force the challenger to decide on a couple of these key positions before hand instead of springing them on us after the fact. In effect, we are electing the entire team but we don't get to vote on the entire team. Just the one person who appoints a bunch of powerful people. It would be nice to know who these people are going to be.

Lets see a debate with the president and a house and senate person from their party and talk about how they are going to legislatively get something done. The debt limit. Filibustering, etc.

Lets cover some real ground with the actual team of people that will be doing the deciding.

You want charts, notes.. bring them. And the moderator should have a team also. Fact checking should be done on the spot. Its should be more like a court processing structure based on facts. Hell, swearing them in would make me happy.

We are about to elect a president, their cabinet, their party and how they would elect to the supreme court. I want facts about policies. Now for me, I follow this stuff so I know their positions pretty well. But even people like us would benefit from hearing this stuff vetted out. For the lower information voter, they would get more factual information in a crash session instead of the acting, lying spin crap that happens to often. Who wins shouldn't be based on who can spin and lie the most or who looks the best up their one on one in two minute sound bits.

If they approached it this way, they would be more accountable to us. There would be less need to run around doing stump speeches. If people had more accurate facts, they wouldn't get spun so easy to ads and stump speeches. Last I checked, the campaigns don't pay for these debates and they get like 50-80 million people watching the same thing at one. And they are on the record with their answers.

Right now we have a pretty stupid Hollywood style of electing the group of people and the head of executive branch that will run the country for 4 years. Its takes way to long, cost to much and provides not nearly enough factual information. And it doesn't teach most people anything. It doesn't advance the country.

And while they are at it, change to constitution to make it one or two 6 year terms. Then these people will actually be forced to get something done.
User avatar
Induveca
Head Coach
Posts: 7,379
And1: 724
Joined: Dec 02, 2004
   

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1324 » by Induveca » Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:13 pm

Hoping and praying for Romney to win. This will be my first election I've actually voted in....ever. Always felt somewhat intellectually insulted when presented with two choices and it being passed off as a true "choice".

This time is different, I can't remember an election where the two candidates were more opposite in approach. Obama's socialist ideas will wreak havoc on my tax bill and stressed accountant.

If Obama wins I will be permanently living here in the Dominican Republic again. The current dividend tax rate allows people like myself to take far more risks and hire more people when creating new businesses.

Boost that up to 30% and I take my business ideas and jobs elsewhere.

The biggest impact Obama will have on my life is forcing me to move to ensure I live 9 months outside the US in 2013 and reduce my tax level even more than what it is today.

Every business owner I know is closing major financial transactions this year, trying to minimize the impact of an Obama win. In addition hiring is completely frozen.

Afraid these policies will kill entrepreneurial spirit, much like it has in France.
hands11
Banned User
Posts: 31,171
And1: 2,444
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1325 » by hands11 » Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:31 pm

Its no different then the choice we had when GWB was running. Twice. Yeah, that worked out well for us.

This stark contrast is nothing new. Its Reagan/GWB economic ideas. Deregulate so the thieves can pollute our waters and rob our financial instruments. Bubbles and busts that the rich benefit from.

Pile on the debt to future generations so business people can rape the government coffers. Even worse, take money that isn't even there that future generation will have to pay back. Mitt has nothing new. Its a return to trickle down which is a proven failed policy.

If its just a race to the bottom to kiss the asses of business people, then that is not a country with any goals or morals. You sound like a hired assassin. You have no loyalty to country. You have proven that.

Unless everything you earn comes from purely private markets ( almost impossible) that are not government subsidized, then all you are doing in making money on our collective credit cards and the cards of our kids.

My hopes are that the system gets set up where if you don't want to play and you have to give back. If not then you get cut out of the game as far as it is involved with US government dollars.

Time for the free ride to be over. We need a return to the economy we created after WII. We need a strong middle class again. That is the economic engine that made this countries economy the envy of the world. There have always been rich people with way more then they now what to do with. That is nothing special. Any just because you have money is not a sign of a successful life. Drug dealers have money. So what.

Take you ideas and walk. Don't let the door hit you in the ass. Others will step into your void. I just hope our government locks the door on those that leave. Your threats don't impress. How about this. Since you think that way, walk now.

Actually, you make a strong argument for why your government should get more involved in industry and partnerships, not less. Those business would be ours, not things that are at the whim of people whos religion is money, not country or people. I would rather have a strong wide middle class with good purchasing power and upward mobility then a handful of rich people holding the country hostage and massive poor.
User avatar
Induveca
Head Coach
Posts: 7,379
And1: 724
Joined: Dec 02, 2004
   

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1326 » by Induveca » Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:10 pm

I chose to do my businesses in the states more due to convenience/owning a home in Miami, and sadly enough....easy shopping.

Currently I'm at a home in a private resort here. Far more safe than Miami. Maids, gardeners....house on the ocean. It costs about the same monthly as Miami. And it is 10x more luxurious, and the place of choice to do any major business in the country.

Better yet, I can exclude 110k of my income by living here 10 months of the year. That's US law.

Tack on the credit for foreign tax paid, and my US tax rate will be far less than what it was last year.

Or of course I could pound my chest, wave my passport around and pay a few hundred thousand more a year in taxes for no reason other than "loyalty".

Instead I am quite happy to stay here, live better/cheaper with less extravagant shopping options. I'll visit family/friends as needed. Direct flights to Miami and New York 5 miles from my door every day.

Obama's policies helped me make this decision. 15% dividend tax yearly was a penalty I paid to avoid a permanent move, 30% on dividends is too drastic a change to simply ignore.
Zonkerbl
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 9,043
And1: 4,738
Joined: Mar 24, 2010
       

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1327 » by Zonkerbl » Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:22 am

Get rid of the dividend tax entirely, replace it with a VAT!!!!
I've been taught all my life to value service to the weak and powerless.
hands11
Banned User
Posts: 31,171
And1: 2,444
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1328 » by hands11 » Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:06 pm

Oh God.

I just saw a Mitt ad blaming Obama for the last 4x 1 trillion dollar annual default budgets and then tying in China as a negative because they are buying our debt.

Republican Party have no shame when it comes to their lies and propaganda.

Burn the house down and then blame the fire fighters for starting the fire.

GWB inherited a surplus. He is the one that blow it with tax spending instead on continuing the pay down the debt. Then he started two unfunded wars and didn't even put them on budget. Then spent even more with more tax expenditure. He and the Republicans are the ones who turned surpluses into deficits. Piled on massive debt. Left two wars not wrapped up for someone else to deal with. Added an unpaid for medicaid D option. And didn't create crap for jobs. Worst 8 years of governance ever. Failed leadership. Failed ideas. This is their trillion dollar annual deficit.

All Republican ideas. All massive failures with no quick fixes. Specially since the entire house of cards came crumbling down just as steering wheel was taken from them. Most people are all lucky we are not sitting by camp fires eating beans. Things were so bad I was moving my money around different banks for fear I would lose it in one of the banks failures.

That is what these people left behind. All their ideas. Now they want to rewrite history and blame someone else for their messes. So Republican Party. No accountability. Lies. Propaganda. But trust us again. We have more fairy dust that will fix everything. :lol:

For those who say when will it be Obamas economy. When is he to blame for the mess. For one, that mess will never be his mess. When will things recover? They already are. But its going to take some time to absorb all those lost jobs. Now if the house would pass some serious infrastructure bill, lots of jobs would get created and we would be well on our way to growing out of this. Its not even complicated what needs to get done. The Republicans know that which makes me even more sick. That's why they want to get back in office so badly. They can walk in, pass one infrastructure bill and just sit back and watch things get better. Then they will try to blame the Dems for the next 20 years for not doing better when they walked into the house they set on fire.

It all makes me sick.

Republican mess things up spending like drunken sailors then blame the Dems when the mess isn't cleaned up fast enough. Clinton had the exact same situation and they said all the same crap about his policies that they are about Obama. This is nothing new. Same play book.

Thank God America was smart enough to elect him a second time so we could get to that great economy we had in his second term. Hopefully America will be that smart a second time. This country would not survive the drunk drives getting behind the wheel again so soon.
badinage
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,752
And1: 1,237
Joined: May 09, 2002

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1329 » by badinage » Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:19 am

Induveca wrote:Hoping and praying for Romney to win. This will be my first election I've actually voted in....ever. Always felt somewhat intellectually insulted when presented with two choices and it being passed off as a true "choice".

This time is different, I can't remember an election where the two candidates were more opposite in approach. Obama's socialist ideas will wreak havoc on my tax bill and stressed accountant.

If Obama wins I will be permanently living here in the Dominican Republic again. The current dividend tax rate allows people like myself to take far more risks and hire more people when creating new businesses.

Boost that up to 30% and I take my business ideas and jobs elsewhere.

The biggest impact Obama will have on my life is forcing me to move to ensure I live 9 months outside the US in 2013 and reduce my tax level even more than what it is today.

Every business owner I know is closing major financial transactions this year, trying to minimize the impact of an Obama win. In addition hiring is completely frozen.

Afraid these policies will kill entrepreneurial spirit, much like it has in France.


Me, me, me.

Money, money, money.

Typical Randian Republican.
User avatar
Induveca
Head Coach
Posts: 7,379
And1: 724
Joined: Dec 02, 2004
   

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1330 » by Induveca » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:00 am

badinage wrote:
Induveca wrote:Hoping and praying for Romney to win. This will be my first election I've actually voted in....ever. Always felt somewhat intellectually insulted when presented with two choices and it being passed off as a true "choice".

This time is different, I can't remember an election where the two candidates were more opposite in approach. Obama's socialist ideas will wreak havoc on my tax bill and stressed accountant.

If Obama wins I will be permanently living here in the Dominican Republic again. The current dividend tax rate allows people like myself to take far more risks and hire more people when creating new businesses.

Boost that up to 30% and I take my business ideas and jobs elsewhere.

The biggest impact Obama will have on my life is forcing me to move to ensure I live 9 months outside the US in 2013 and reduce my tax level even more than what it is today.

Every business owner I know is closing major financial transactions this year, trying to minimize the impact of an Obama win. In addition hiring is completely frozen.

Afraid these policies will kill entrepreneurial spirit, much like it has in France.


Me, me, me.

Money, money, money.

Typical Randian Republican.


Other than the republican part, damn right. I support myself and my family.

i worked way too hard for MY money, and know governments and politicians far too well to fall for this type of scheme.....

I came from nothing in the Dominican Republic, left my parents home at 17 with under 100 dollars and have done very well.

Half my extended family in NYC scams the government via food stamp scams, welfare, unemployment etc. Take it away, then they work.

Socialist policies create mostly lazy unimaginative people, with their hands constantly extended. Eventually, it also creates excessively powerful central governments....and eventually semi-dictatorships.

Chavez used these same promises to capture the presidency in Venezuela. Play the "take from the rich" card, and screams 3rd world to me......
User avatar
dandridge 10
Veteran
Posts: 2,500
And1: 537
Joined: Feb 16, 2005

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1331 » by dandridge 10 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:23 pm

hands11 wrote:Oh God.

I just saw a Mitt ad blaming Obama for the last 4x 1 trillion dollar annual default budgets and then tying in China as a negative because they are buying our debt.

Republican Party have no shame when it comes to their lies and propaganda.

Burn the house down and then blame the fire fighters for starting the fire.

GWB inherited a surplus. He is the one that blow it with tax spending instead on continuing the pay down the debt. Then he started two unfunded wars and didn't even put them on budget. Then spent even more with more tax expenditure. He and the Republicans are the ones who turned surpluses into deficits. Piled on massive debt. Left two wars not wrapped up for someone else to deal with. Added an unpaid for medicaid D option. And didn't create crap for jobs. Worst 8 years of governance ever. Failed leadership. Failed ideas. This is their trillion dollar annual deficit.

All Republican ideas. All massive failures with no quick fixes. Specially since the entire house of cards came crumbling down just as steering wheel was taken from them. Most people are all lucky we are not sitting by camp fires eating beans. Things were so bad I was moving my money around different banks for fear I would lose it in one of the banks failures.

That is what these people left behind. All their ideas. Now they want to rewrite history and blame someone else for their messes. So Republican Party. No accountability. Lies. Propaganda. But trust us again. We have more fairy dust that will fix everything. :lol:

For those who say when will it be Obamas economy. When is he to blame for the mess. For one, that mess will never be his mess. When will things recover? They already are. But its going to take some time to absorb all those lost jobs. Now if the house would pass some serious infrastructure bill, lots of jobs would get created and we would be well on our way to growing out of this. Its not even complicated what needs to get done. The Republicans know that which makes me even more sick. That's why they want to get back in office so badly. They can walk in, pass one infrastructure bill and just sit back and watch things get better. Then they will try to blame the Dems for the next 20 years for not doing better when they walked into the house they set on fire.

It all makes me sick.

Republican mess things up spending like drunken sailors then blame the Dems when the mess isn't cleaned up fast enough. Clinton had the exact same situation and they said all the same crap about his policies that they are about Obama. This is nothing new. Same play book.

Thank God America was smart enough to elect him a second time so we could get to that great economy we had in his second term. Hopefully America will be that smart a second time. This country would not survive the drunk drives getting behind the wheel again so soon.


I don't normally post in this thread because I personally hate politics and most of the posts in this thread are from either staunch democrats or republicans that are so entrenched in their views they are unwilling or unable to consider the validity of what the other side is saying. However, I will say this. It cracks me up when one side accuses the other side of misleading or false ads. BOTH SIDES DO IT. They have made it an art form to take one simple fact and then twist it in a way that it is completely misleading. Hands, for as incredulous you are regarding the Republican ads, explain the recent Obama ad that takes a snippet from Romney talking about how much he pays in capital gains tax and then compares it to the ordinary income tax that a person pays that is making $50,000 a year. The ad is completely misleading because it is not comparing apples to apples. Capital gains are taxed at a different rate than ordinary income. Romney ads have done the same crap. Don't act holier than thou when both sides are doing it.
User avatar
Chocolate City Jordanaire
RealGM
Posts: 54,606
And1: 10,338
Joined: Aug 05, 2001
       

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1332 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:26 pm

Induveca wrote:Other than the republican part, damn right. I support myself and my family.

i worked way too hard for MY money, and know governments and politicians far too well to fall for this type of scheme.....

I came from nothing in the Dominican Republic, left my parents home at 17 with under 100 dollars and have done very well.

Half my extended family in NYC scams the government via food stamp scams, welfare, unemployment etc. Take it away, then they work.

Socialist policies create mostly lazy unimaginative people, with their hands constantly extended. Eventually, it also creates excessively powerful central governments....and eventually semi-dictatorships.

Chavez used these same promises to capture the presidency in Venezuela. Play the "take from the rich" card, and screams 3rd world to me......



Induveca, socialist policy didn't make those extended family members scammers. Parenting and environment is what molded them. Ultimately, their own character and work ethic is what determines how they subsist. That those options enable them to scam is true, as far as I am concerned. But it did not make them that way IMO.

Family molded you, too, Induveca. I don't know you but I would bet you $15,000.00--(probably nothing to you, but a whole lot to me), that your parents and/or your grandparents made sure you could read well at a very early age. You might have left with only $100 in your pocket but you had a lot of life lessons deposited in your heart and mind already by age 17. That you had reading skills your critical thinking skills also able to serve you well to become the successful entrepreneur that you are today. You worked hard but I bet you DID NOT do everything alone. In your formative years, someone influenced you.

The most successful man I know is my 81-year old dad. His mother ran off from his abusive, alcoholic dad when he was 5 and my late uncle was 7. They were split up. My dad went to his maternal grandmother and my uncle went to his paternal grandmother. That didn't last long. Within one year, the woman who taught my dad to read when he was 5 was murdered. They found her body in a river and the case went unsolved. My dad went to live with his brother. To make a long story short, my dad by being an early reader received what he needed to become much more successful than my uncle. My uncle became a hustler, at times a pimp. He was tall (about 6'1" or 6'2") and nice looking. Uncle Johnny was a funny, charming, but full of it. My dad only grew to be 5'9". He fought fights my uncle started. In the end after a successful military career he became and even more successful businessman. One worked legitimately for what he got and the other did not.

The thing my dad occasionally does is look down on people who are not successful economically. He knows how his brother hustled and bilked people, but dad also has looked down at times on me and my sisters for not being fairly rich as he is. Don't get me wrong, he is generous and always there in love, advice, and support for you. But he's at times a guy who lives in an ivory tower. When I was in town for Father's day years back, I didn't meet his rich friends. My sister and I often feel he forgot his own humble beginnings.

Induveca, you've always impressed me and regardless of how you take this, I know you are not my dad and forgive me for making any comparisons. My dad is a student of history and social sciences, and he remembers before the military that he was well on his way to being a hustler and a scammer himself. My late mother pretty much signed him up for the military against his will. They shipped him off later to Vietnam a couple times. He changed immediately when he was in the service. His environment allowed him to go from enlisted to officer to flight school.

I think you're just more fortunate than your relatives who are scamming, Induveca. You can love the Republican party and that is your choice and right. Personally, I think they're going to create a class system even worse than what it already is. We will see.
Tre Johnson is the future of the Wizards.
Zonkerbl
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 9,043
And1: 4,738
Joined: Mar 24, 2010
       

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1333 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:30 pm

Had an interesting talk with my daughter yesterday who said she didn't like Obama because his ads just attacked and didn't have any useful information in them.

I said yeah, the only way to really tell the difference between the parties is to pay close attention to what they actually do in office in between elections. You don't get any useful information out of either party during the election.

But don't blame the player for playing the game according to the rules! You wouldn't get mad at a quarterback for throwing the ball, would you? Don't get mad at Obama or Romney for telling lies and pointing fingers. That's what influences voters, so that's how the game gets played.
I've been taught all my life to value service to the weak and powerless.
User avatar
Chocolate City Jordanaire
RealGM
Posts: 54,606
And1: 10,338
Joined: Aug 05, 2001
       

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1334 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:48 pm

I don't particularly care for Barack Obama or Mitt Romney, but I'm not worried either way about this election. I will vote Obama because that is who I voted for last time and I cannot stand Mitt Romney even more than I don't have a lot of faith that Barack will turn things around, either.

This race is between not-too-good and no-way-in-hell as far as I'm concerned.

Neither of them will come in and institute reforms I would like to see. None will hold America accountable for international crimes. None will pull us out of Afghanistan immediately. Neither will call for atonement. Neither will announce drug cartels from Mexico as a bigger threat to our security than terrorism abroad. Neither will reform laws that criminalize marijuana use. I don't get high at all but I think it is beyond stupid to fill jails with drug users. Neither candidate will call for massive reform in prescribing medications to school-aged children for ADD. What kids need is more PE and less stressful school environments. The curriculum is getting out of hand. More learning required for less jobs available if and when you graduate. What is lacking in schools are teachers with compassion and common sense, more than proficiency on assessments. Romney and Barack are not saying what I want to hear.

I don't know or want to know the nuances that people are arguing over. I don't believe much of what I hear or read, any way. My gut feeling is Barack is a bit of a con man. I think he is a charismatic speaker and a very well-intentioned man. I think he trusts leaders of the military industrial complex too much. I think he is great for those who want to further their education. I support Michelle Obama being active in getting people fit and eating right. I think most of those who oppose Obama are fueled up unlike they would be if he were not African American.

Mitt Romney is probably a guy who really cares about his family and tradition. I think he really believes his way is better. I think he really does believe Obama has been an abominable President. As much as I don't like Mitt Romney, the fact that so many Americans do, I kind of want the guy to win for the greater good. If he gets in power and doesn't screw things up, he could end up like Ronald Reagan (except for the supply side economics, Iran Contra, and the Libyan Embassy bombings) being revered. I think just the opposite will happen. Mitt is going to be hated abroad and domestically IMO. Rich folks are going to love Mitt, however.

Sorry for the rant, but that is my uninformed, intuitive opinion about these candidates. If not for a couple way out statements and him perhaps being racist; I thought Ron Paul was by far the wisest, best choice for President. Cain was the most likable guy for a while. I thought he could beat Barack but that 9-9-9 stuff made me think otherwise.
Tre Johnson is the future of the Wizards.
Zonkerbl
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 9,043
And1: 4,738
Joined: Mar 24, 2010
       

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1335 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:56 pm

If it wasn't for the Tea Partiers I would be pretty neutral about this election. As it is, the country just can't afford to have Republicans in charge with those wackos running amok.
I've been taught all my life to value service to the weak and powerless.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 70,176
And1: 22,593
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1336 » by nate33 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:05 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Induveca, socialist policy didn't make those extended family members scammers. Parenting and environment is what molded them. Ultimately, their own character and work ethic is what determines how they subsist. That those options enable them to scam is true, as far as I am concerned. But it did not make them that way IMO.

While this is true, I think it only tells part of the story. In a society with a generous safety net, there is less incentive to develop a strong work ethic. It gets worse every generation until you reach a point where people honestly believe that they are entitled to a job, health care, education, food and housing; and that the money that pay for it just comes from "the government"; as if the government actually has any money that they don't tax from hard-working citizens.

I'll never forget this video:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ojd13kZlCA[/youtube]

Obviously, this is anecdotal and I'm not saying that every Obama voter thinks this way. But the fact that this sentiment exists for even a small percentage of the population is terrifying.
User avatar
dandridge 10
Veteran
Posts: 2,500
And1: 537
Joined: Feb 16, 2005

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1337 » by dandridge 10 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:10 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:Had an interesting talk with my daughter yesterday who said she didn't like Obama because his ads just attacked and didn't have any useful information in them.

I said yeah, the only way to really tell the difference between the parties is to pay close attention to what they actually do in office in between elections. You don't get any useful information out of either party during the election.

But don't blame the player for playing the game according to the rules! You wouldn't get mad at a quarterback for throwing the ball, would you? Don't get mad at Obama or Romney for telling lies and pointing fingers. That's what influences voters, so that's how the game gets played.


I'm not as mad at the players as I am at the blind Americans who accuse each party of lying and pointing fingers.
Severn Hoos
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,443
And1: 223
Joined: May 09, 2002

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1338 » by Severn Hoos » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:36 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Induveca, socialist policy didn't make those extended family members scammers. Parenting and environment is what molded them. Ultimately, their own character and work ethic is what determines how they subsist. That those options enable them to scam is true, as far as I am concerned. But it did not make them that way IMO.

Family molded you, too, Induveca. I don't know you but I would bet you $15,000.00--(probably nothing to you, but a whole lot to me), that your parents and/or your grandparents made sure you could read well at a very early age. You might have left with only $100 in your pocket but you had a lot of life lessons deposited in your heart and mind already by age 17. That you had reading skills your critical thinking skills also able to serve you well to become the successful entrepreneur that you are today. You worked hard but I bet you DID NOT do everything alone. In your formative years, someone influenced you.


"We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and then bid the geldings to be fruitful." - C. S. Lewis

CCJ, I absolutely believe that these issues are societal rather than governmental. And unfortunately, that means that no election, no candidate, no party can change it. The bigger problem is that when people speak out for things like honor, family, and commitment, they most often receive mockery or scorn. So little by little, they move to the background and remain silent. And children are raised without Fathers, without moral grounding, without the Golden Rule (after all, it's from that scary book that all those crazy Tea Partiers keep quoting).

I am becoming more and more "Libertarian" (if we must apply labels) in recent years, but I do worry for society. Still, reforming society is not the job of the Government, it is the job of the Church. That means holding up a moral standard, caring for the poor in her midst, and proclaiming the Truth. And right now, sad to say, she is failing miserably.
"A society that puts equality - in the sense of equality of outcome - ahead of freedom will end up with neither equality nor freedom. The use of force to achieve equality will destroy freedom" Milton Friedman, Free to Choose
User avatar
Nivek
Head Coach
Posts: 7,406
And1: 959
Joined: Sep 29, 2010
Contact:
         

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1339 » by Nivek » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:38 pm

I agree dandridge. The partisan stuff is tiresome. Tedious. It's a substitute for thought and reason.

And, as long as I'm kvetching, I'm also sick of people telling me what someone else's motivations are. As in, Obama wants to turn America into a socialist nation. Or, Romney wants to take away your healthcare. Any time I hear some blowhard start with something like, "What he's really trying to do is..." I want to know how the blowhard knows. Did you talk to the guy? Did he tell you that's what he was trying to do? Is this something you're inferring? Making up?

Back when I wrote speeches for a Republican (who worked in both the Reagan and 1st Bush administrations), someone on our staff started in on some organization's "real" agenda. The exec I was writing for shut him down quick. He told the story of Reagan shutting down that kind of stuff from his staff. Reagan's instruction was to keep your own motives and intentions pure, and then assume the other guy is doing the same.

I try to assume that both Romney and Obama mean well. Two things in particular bug me about Romney. First, his unwillingness to provide details on his tax plan. What he's sketched out sounds...well...not credible. I think he needs to show his work on the subject. Otherwise, it comes off as something to say because maybe it'll help him get elected. And second, I'm not sure what Romney believes in political terms because he keeps reversing himself. For example, his recent comments on what he would not do on abortion conflict with the position posted on his own website.

I'm not thrilled with the job Obama's done as president, but I'm 100% certain that McCain would have been far worse the past four years. I'm torn between the idea that Obama hasn't been an effective president and the competing thought that he took over a mess and that the cleanup is taking longer than anyone would like.

For me, Romney hasn't presented a compelling case for why his approach would be any better.
"A lot of what we call talent is the desire to practice."
-- Malcolm Gladwell

Check out my blog about the Wizards, movies, writing, music, TV, sports, and whatever else comes to mind.
User avatar
Nivek
Head Coach
Posts: 7,406
And1: 959
Joined: Sep 29, 2010
Contact:
         

Re: Political Roundtable Pulsar of Annihilation part IV 

Post#1340 » by Nivek » Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:00 pm

I've been doing some reading on the claim that reducing tax rates will stimulate economic growth. As best I can tell: not so. Research on the subject indicates that the top tax rate and real growth in GDP have a very weak correlation.
"A lot of what we call talent is the desire to practice."
-- Malcolm Gladwell

Check out my blog about the Wizards, movies, writing, music, TV, sports, and whatever else comes to mind.

Return to Washington Wizards