Official Trade Thread - Part XXVII

[payitforward]

Here's a **** it, lets win now trade that might work

Nene to Houston
Asik and Motiejunas to Indiana
Hibbert to Washington

Why for Houston: They can find a cheap backup C easier than they can find a much needed two way vet. Nenes injury concerns aren't a big deal to a team that just needs him right for the playoffs. He's a guy that could have at least helped to slow down Aldridge and on the other end actually make him work defensively. His contract is up in two years so if it doesn't work out this summer they might be able to move him. They can easily throw money at a Jordan Hill or Emeka Okafor to sub for Dwight.

For for Indy: It's hard to know how much of the locker room issue was Roy, Paul, or Lance--but regardless of that it seems super clear that they won't get off the jump with that core. Asik expires a year sooner than Hibbert which allows them to chase another big start to put next to Paul in a couple of seasons, and there are things Asik likely does better than Roy--he's a tremendous rebounder and solid defensively. They wouldn't lose much and Motie might add desperately needed offense to their second unit.

Why for Wiz: Bringing Hibbert "home" and into a better locker room situation might help him to bring his second team all defensive effort up to first team. He expires the same time as Durant so the dream isn't dead if we get him. More importantly, in using Nenes contract to acquire him we put ourselves in a position to bring in Melo. Even with an ideal situation of bringing in Durant, there's no guarantee that it would be the best fit for Wall. With Hibbert at C and Carmelo at the 4, the floor spacing should be wide open for Wall to develop into the superstar we need him to be. Let Gortat walk, extend ariza and pay the tax penalties necessary to get this team over the edge.

Wall
Beal
Ariza/Porter
Melo
Hibbert

You probably have to include a Lin/Webster swap to get Houston interested. That wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. It would be interesting to see if Indy was interested in going that direction.

I'd rather have Asik and Motiejunas than Hibbert. By a lot! TBH, I don't think Hibbert has turned out to be particularly good.

But with either of them... what happens w/ Gortat? That is, are you suggesting we'd make this trade and not re-sign Gortat? Hmmm... I like that idea! (tho of course I've always been a big Gortat fan)

Nene and Webster for Asik, Motiejunas and Lin -- I'd do that in a minute.* But I don't believe Morey would be likely to go for that.

*Edit -- why? Because we'd be no worse in the coming season, and maybe better. Motiejunas has 3 years of rookie contract left and plenty of upside left, acquiring Lin would save us having to retain Miller, and he is expiring; and Asik -- while a different kind of player from Marcin -- is an outstanding Center in this league.

We take in as much salary as we give out in the deal, but we don't re-sign Gortat or retain Miller -- which gains us @ $14m to do something with when we want to. And we gain tremendous cap flexibility a year from now.

I don't see Morey making this trade, but I'd sure do it immediately! Am I wrong? What am I missing?

[nate33]

Here's a **** it, lets win now trade that might work

Nene to Houston
Asik and Motiejunas to Indiana
Hibbert to Washington

Why for Houston: They can find a cheap backup C easier than they can find a much needed two way vet. Nenes injury concerns aren't a big deal to a team that just needs him right for the playoffs. He's a guy that could have at least helped to slow down Aldridge and on the other end actually make him work defensively. His contract is up in two years so if it doesn't work out this summer they might be able to move him. They can easily throw money at a Jordan Hill or Emeka Okafor to sub for Dwight.

For for Indy: It's hard to know how much of the locker room issue was Roy, Paul, or Lance--but regardless of that it seems super clear that they won't get off the jump with that core. Asik expires a year sooner than Hibbert which allows them to chase another big start to put next to Paul in a couple of seasons, and there are things Asik likely does better than Roy--he's a tremendous rebounder and solid defensively. They wouldn't lose much and Motie might add desperately needed offense to their second unit.

Why for Wiz: Bringing Hibbert "home" and into a better locker room situation might help him to bring his second team all defensive effort up to first team. He expires the same time as Durant so the dream isn't dead if we get him. More importantly, in using Nenes contract to acquire him we put ourselves in a position to bring in Melo. Even with an ideal situation of bringing in Durant, there's no guarantee that it would be the best fit for Wall. With Hibbert at C and Carmelo at the 4, the floor spacing should be wide open for Wall to develop into the superstar we need him to be. Let Gortat walk, extend ariza and pay the tax penalties necessary to get this team over the edge.

Wall
Beal
Ariza/Porter
Melo
Hibbert

I'd like it better if we cut Indy out and kept Asik and Motie. A team with Melo at the PF needs a dominant rebounder at center, and that ain't Hibbert.

I really don't like the idea of trading for Melo though. I just don't think he's good enough to make us contenders. I'm not sure how you acquired Melo in this plan anyhow.

[Dark Faze]

The Melo acquiring is just through free agency. The cap space is made possible by directly moving Nenes contract for Hibberts and then letting Gortat expire, possibly Ariza as well.

The Melo hate hasn't been relevant since he became a Knick. Since then his defensive issues have been widely downgraded, he's had a 56% ts and a near 25 PER over the last two seasons.

I understand the Asik vs Hibbert argument but I think I still prefer Hibbert. I need rim protection more than I need rebounding with this group, and I still think Hibbert was terribly misused offensively due to league worst PG play at the position for Indiana.

[LyricalRico]

^ Agree with nate - pass on Hibbert. Especially in a Melo scenario, but I'd probably pass on Hibbert in any scenario.

[nate33]

The Melo acquiring is just through free agency. The cap space is made possible by directly moving Nenes contract for Hibberts and then letting Gortat expire, possibly Ariza as well.

The Melo hate hasn't been relevant since he became a Knick. Since then his defensive issues have been widely downgraded, he's had a 56% ts and a near 25 PER over the last two seasons.

I understand the Asik vs Hibbert argument but I think I still prefer Hibbert. I need rim protection more than I need rebounding with this group, and I still think Hibbert was terribly misused offensively due to league worst PG play at the position for Indiana.

You would definitely need to renounce both Gortat and Ariza if you went after Melo. We'd have to renounce our MLE and Bird Rights for Booker and Seraphin.

Basically, it would be Wall, Beal, Porter, Webster, Melo, Hibbert and vet minimum contracts. We'd have no rebounder. No perimeter stopper. No depth. Our starting unit would score well, though.

My issue with Melo is that I don't think he's the type of player who has synergy with a ball-handling PG. Melo is an iso scorer. Wall would just pass him the ball and watch him go to work. If that's the way we're gonna play, what's the point in having Wall? We'd be better off with a 3&D guy at PG like Mario Chalmers or Patrick Beverlee. At least they could stretch the floor for Melo.

[Dark Faze]

The Melo acquiring is just through free agency. The cap space is made possible by directly moving Nenes contract for Hibberts and then letting Gortat expire, possibly Ariza as well.

The Melo hate hasn't been relevant since he became a Knick. Since then his defensive issues have been widely downgraded, he's had a 56% ts and a near 25 PER over the last two seasons.

I understand the Asik vs Hibbert argument but I think I still prefer Hibbert. I need rim protection more than I need rebounding with this group, and I still think Hibbert was terribly misused offensively due to league worst PG play at the position for Indiana.

You would definitely need to renounce both Gortat and Ariza if you went after Melo. We'd have to renounce our MLE and Bird Rights for Booker and Seraphin.

Basically, it would be Wall, Beal, Porter, Webster, Melo, Hibbert and vet minimum contracts. We'd have no rebounder. No perimeter stopper. No depth. Our starting unit would score well, though.

My issue with Melo is that I don't think he's the type of player who has synergy with a ball-handling PG. Melo is an iso scorer. Wall would just pass him the ball and watch him go to work. If that's the way we're gonna play, what's the point in having Wall? We'd be better off with a 3&D guy at PG like Mario Chalmers or Patrick Beverlee. At least they could stretch the floor for Melo.

A few things:

2014/2015 Cap numbers
The Cap = 77 mil lux tax

Roy: 15
Melo: 23.5
Wall: 13.7
Porter: 4.5
Beal: 4.5

Starters salary = 61.2

That leaves 15.8 for a bench

Dre : 4.6
Web: 5.4
GRJ: 1 (could be less)

Total bench = 11
Total team = 72.2
Leftover before tax = 4.8

That's 4.8 to play around with before you hit tax. Let Booker walk, sign Gooden to something around half of that if possible and bring in a guy like Okafor for the other half if willing.

So the money is there before we even talk about paying the tax.

Secondly:

It's true that Melo creates his own offense, but again we continue to not look at the real picture of who the guy has played with during his career. Iverson, Chauncey, J.R Smith and Felton are the primary guards the guy has played with. How often did those guys create spot up shot opportunities for him? Rarely for a number of reasons.

Having a guy like Melo on the elbow or camping at the three is going to give Wall so much more room to attack the rim. When Wall drives the man guarding Melo can't help much if at all because Melo will knock down the open jumpshot Nene so often misses OR will have to beware of being out of position for dominant Melo is at creating his own shot.

If Leonsis isn't willing to pay then we'll never be good. It's hard as hell to field a legit contender let alone trying to do that while staying decently under the cap. It's a pipedream. The only team capable of this was the Spurs who have a hall of famer literally willing to make 8-10 million less a year in order to compete.

[nate33]

A few things:

2014/2015 Cap numbers
The Cap = 77 mil lux tax

Roy: 15
Melo: 23.5
Wall: 13.7
Porter: 4.5
Beal: 4.5

Starters salary = 61.2

That leaves 15.8 for a bench

Dre : 4.6
Web: 5.4
GRJ: 1 (could be less)

Total bench = 11
Total team = 72.2
Leftover before tax = 4.8

That's 4.8 to play around with before you hit tax. Let Booker walk, sign Gooden to something around half of that if possible and bring in a guy like Okafor for the other half if willing.

It doesn't work that way. You have to first renounce the rights to Booker, Miller, Seraphin and the MLE before you generate the $23M in cap room to sign Melo. Once Melo is signed, we're stuck with no ability to add players except minimum salary vets.

Secondly:

It's true that Melo creates his own offense, but again we continue to not look at the real picture of who the guy has played with during his career. Iverson, Chauncey, J.R Smith and Felton are the primary guards the guy has played with. How often did those guys create spot up shot opportunities for him? Rarely for a number of reasons.

Having a guy like Melo on the elbow or camping at the three is going to give Wall so much more room to attack the rim. When Wall drives the man guarding Melo can't help much if at all because Melo will knock down the open jumpshot Nene so often misses OR will have to beware of being out of position for dominant Melo is at creating his own shot.

You make my point. Melo has never really had any synergy with any of the PG's he's ever played with because that's just not the type of player he is. Hell, Jeremy Lin turned into a superstar the moment Melo got hurt.

If you think the reason to add Melo is to provide floor spacing at PF for Wall, then let's do it much more cheaply by adding a guy like Ryan Anderson.

[dandridge 10]

Exactly Nate. Melo would not be satisfied with an Ariza type role with this team, whereby Wall is setting him up for jumpers. Melo is going to want the ball in his hands. I just don't get the fascination with Melo. He is a great scorer, but a ball-stopper. Signing Melo would be a mistake.

[Dark Faze]

He's never really had any synergy with any of the PG's he's ever played with because that's just not the type of player he is. Hell, Jeremy Lin turned into a superstar the moment Melo got hurt.

If you think the reason to add Melo is to provide floor spacing at PF for Wall, then let's do it much more cheaply by adding a guy like Ryan Anderson.

Can we not bring in Melo, trade Nene to receive the Bird rights of Asik/Hibbert and then extend them?

And my point about the guards that played with Melo is that none of them were great at creating shots for others--they they were shot takers themselves.

The truest point that Melo has played with was Dre.

[nate33]

Can we not bring in Melo, trade Nene to receive the Bird rights of Asik/Hibbert and then extend them?

Yes. We can do that part. We renounce Ariza, Gortat, Booker, Miller and the MLE; sign Melo; then trade Nene for Asik/Hibbert. But after that, all we can do is sign minimum salary vets. No Booker, no MLE, and maybe no Andre Miller (unless he comes back for the vet minimum after we just bought him out for $2M).

And my point about the guards that played with Melo is that none of them were great at creating shots for others--they they were shot takers themselves.

The truest point that Melo has played with was Dre.

Billups was a true PG, a very good one. And Iverson actually played more like a PG in Denver than at any other time in his career.

Look, I appreciate that Melo has talent. I just am not convinced that his type of offensive talent is cumulative with other ball-dominant offensive players. I think Melo would mesh fine with Beal, for example, and probably Hibbert too. But Wall and Melo is a bad mix. Melo is overpaid and too poor defensively to be a catch-and-shoot sidekick to Wall. And Wall is too lousy off the ball to be a get-Melo-the-ball-and-get-out-of-the-way PG.

[payitforward]

^ Agree with nate - pass on Hibbert. Especially in a Melo scenario, but I'd probably pass on Hibbert in any scenario.

We don't agree often. But on this we do. And any time we agree, you are right.*

No interest in Hibbert whatsoever.

* heh heh...

[payitforward]

Can't wait for Carmelo Anthony to land somewhere, so he can stop coming up here.

He's a good player -- a very good player -- even a good player who has improved the last couple of years. But... he is not a great player -- not anywhere near a great player -- never going to become a great player.

He's also a way overpaid player -- that is, he has been and he will be again. And, really, that's the only issue. You don't need to discuss anything else. If we could have him for $10m/year? Of course! He'd be a bargain at that salary. But, last year he made $21m, and I think he'll likely get offers over $15m this year if he opts out. But, tbh, I have my doubts he will -- he'd be leaving a lot of $$ on the table, more than seems sensible to me (or will to his agent!).

In any case, he isn't coming here, and we don't need him here.

[thinker07]

Hibbert makes no sense for the Wiz. He's just not fast or mobile enough to allow the team to play the fast pace it wants to. And now he's a head case that you can't be sure will show up in a big game. He may rebuild his game and reputation but I don't think he's a fit for the Wiz.

[Dark Faze]

Look, I appreciate that Melo has talent. I just am not convinced that his type of offensive talent is cumulative with other ball-dominant offensive players. I think Melo would mesh fine with Beal, for example, and probably Hibbert too. But Wall and Melo is a bad mix. Melo is overpaid and too poor defensively to be a catch-and-shoot sidekick to Wall. And Wall is too lousy off the ball to be a get-Melo-the-ball-and-get-out-of-the-way PG.

I'm still struggling to understand what the drastic difference is between Carmelo and Durant.

Durant is better obviously--he's more efficient, but he has his fair share of give me the ball and let me work just like Melo does--and as long as the effiency is there then its not a detriment.

And Billups was a good PG...but being a good PG doesn't mean you're great at creating easy looks for your teammates. He has only had 3 seasons of 7+ APG.

I guess I'm just playing devils advocate in that everyone here is talking about getting Durant as being a no brainer when he brings many of the same problems to the table that Melo does--including what will be an extremely large price tag.

[stevemcqueen1]

1.) Nene + Webster to Sacramento for Jason Thompson, Jason Terry, Derrick Williams, and #8

2.) Gortat extension for 11 million annually

3.) Ariza extension for 8 million annually

4.) Booker/Gooden extension for 2 million annually

5.) Draft : 8A) Noah Vonleh, 8B) Doug McDermott, 8C) Aaron Gordon.

14/15 depth chart and payroll:
PG: Wall - 13.7 mil, Miller - 4.6 mil (18.3)
SG: Beal - 4.5 mil, Terry - 5.8 mil (10.3)
SF: Ariza - 8 mil, Porter - 4.5 mil (12.5)
PF: Booker/Gooden - 2 mil, #8 draft pick - 2.2 mil, Williams - 6.3 mil (10.5-11.5)
C: Gortat - 11 mil, Thompson - 6 mil (17)

Total payroll for 11 players = 68.6

15/16 payroll & depth chart:
PG: Wall - 14.7
SG: Beal - 5.7
SF: Ariza - 8, Porter - 4.7
PF: #8 pick - 2.3, Booker/Gooden - 2
C: Gortat - 11, Thompson - 6.4

Total for 8 players = 54.8

I think this could be a decent way to go if we keep Ariza and Gortat and get something out of that #8 pick.

If you botch the pick, then you're probably better off just keeping Nene and not taking on Jason Thompson's contract. Although having a decent backup C/PF locked up at about 6 million annually for the next three seasons wouldn't be the worst thing.

It'd depend on how much we like Vonleh/Gordon/McDermott.

[verbal8]

Look, I appreciate that Melo has talent. I just am not convinced that his type of offensive talent is cumulative with other ball-dominant offensive players. I think Melo would mesh fine with Beal, for example, and probably Hibbert too. But Wall and Melo is a bad mix. Melo is overpaid and too poor defensively to be a catch-and-shoot sidekick to Wall. And Wall is too lousy off the ball to be a get-Melo-the-ball-and-get-out-of-the-way PG.

I'm still struggling to understand what the drastic difference is between Carmelo and Durant.

Durant is better obviously--he's more efficient, but he has his fair share of give me the ball and let me work just like Melo does--and as long as the effiency is there then its not a detriment.

Melo has been very good this season. However Durant has been great. The difference between Durant and Melo is about the same as the difference between Melo and an average player.

Using Win-share, swapping the players would basically even their teams out(taking 10 wins from the Thunder and adding 10 to the Knicks).

[verbal8]

1.) Nene + Webster to Sacramento for Jason Thompson, Jason Terry, Derrick Williams, and #8

I think to get the 8th pick a team will have to take on Landry and Thompson. Possibly they are willing to use the pick to solve some long salary cap issues and add some vet leadership.

[JAR69]

^ Agree with nate - pass on Hibbert. Especially in a Melo scenario, but I'd probably pass on Hibbert in any scenario.

Would you consider a S&T Gortat for Hibbert (and forget Melo)? It would be a high risk/high reward move, and I doubt Indy would do it. But a Wall/Beal/Hibbert core could be (and I emphasize "could") pretty nice.

[verbal8]

^ Agree with nate - pass on Hibbert. Especially in a Melo scenario, but I'd probably pass on Hibbert in any scenario.

Would you consider a S&T Gortat for Hibbert (and forget Melo)? It would be a high risk/high reward move, and I doubt Indy would do it. But a Wall/Beal/Hibbert core could be (and I emphasize "could") pretty nice.

That is an interesting option. From a production standpoint, Hibbert seems more of a risk. However from an injury/contract point of view Gortat on a 4 year deal seems like the bigger risk. I think it really comes down to salary of who is a better option. If Gortat's deal starts in the 12 to 13 million dollar range and climbs, I think rolling the dice with Hibbert might be the way to go.

[stevemcqueen1]

1.) Nene + Webster to Sacramento for Jason Thompson, Jason Terry, Derrick Williams, and #8

I think to get the 8th pick a team will have to take on Landry and Thompson. Possibly they are willing to use the pick to solve some long salary cap issues and add some vet leadership.

That'd be too much for me. The thing about Nene is that he's actually a good player. Way better than anyone Sacramento gives up. And probably more valuable than all three of them would be combined. I'm not giving up Nene, Webster, AND taking on two bad contracts just to get #8--a pick that Sacramento can barely develop because they're already too young and too flawed.