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Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon

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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1341 » by dckingsfan » Thu Mar 27, 2025 7:14 pm

nate33 wrote:
Kanyewest wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:Guessin' this thread will still be alive. :clap: (fun sarcasm of course given how much you love this thread).

And you are saying the Wizards didn't "coach" our way into less wins? :) (you know the answer to this question, sorry about the rhetorical nature)

And have you been watching the Portland games? I would say that Avdija is responsible for some of the improvement. But... if Clingan wasn't there with the Ayton injury, not happening. Scoots improvement, especially in the second half of the season has been stunning (IMO). Simons has improved :o Camara's defensive improvement has been something to watch. Jabari Walker has been really good during the win streak. Sharpe has improved.

But the biggest improvement for the entire team has been their commitment to defense. Now, if you want to blame that on Deni - okay. Damn two-way players.

With respect, if a coach coaches to lose, they will lose. I am with Nate - we wouldn't have anything worse that the 4th worst record. Because the FO set the agenda to shamelessly lose. Nothing would have changed that, IMO.

The Trail Blazers are 6-8 without Clinigan. If you were to prorate that through 73 games, they would have 31 wins instead of the 32 wins they have now. They are 3-0 without Camera. They are 5-1 without Simons. They are 13-8 without Jabari Walker. They are 3-5 without Sharpe. The Trail Blazers are 1-5 without Deni.

It appears that Deni is their most important player and may have moved the Trail Blazers more than we would have predicted (the Trail Blazers over under was only 21). Apparently, Beal and KP were worth 20 wins as their win total decreased from 35-15 following their departures. For all hippotaumus's, is 2025 Deni better than either Beal or KP (given that Deni is healthy most of the time)?

If Deni is good enough to be worth 10+ wins, then it was even more foolish to dump him.

Lies, damn lies and statistics. So, yeah, if you want to twist it - then you can't have it both ways. Are we saying that the improvement of all those Portland players were because of Deni as well, if so, think of the improvements to Bilal and our rookies. If so, with the wins and other players we traded away an all-star for a pick in the wrong draft.
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1342 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Mar 27, 2025 7:16 pm

nate33 wrote:
Kanyewest wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:Guessin' this thread will still be alive. :clap: (fun sarcasm of course given how much you love this thread).

And you are saying the Wizards didn't "coach" our way into less wins? :) (you know the answer to this question, sorry about the rhetorical nature)

And have you been watching the Portland games? I would say that Avdija is responsible for some of the improvement. But... if Clingan wasn't there with the Ayton injury, not happening. Scoots improvement, especially in the second half of the season has been stunning (IMO). Simons has improved :o Camara's defensive improvement has been something to watch. Jabari Walker has been really good during the win streak. Sharpe has improved.

But the biggest improvement for the entire team has been their commitment to defense. Now, if you want to blame that on Deni - okay. Damn two-way players.

With respect, if a coach coaches to lose, they will lose. I am with Nate - we wouldn't have anything worse that the 4th worst record. Because the FO set the agenda to shamelessly lose. Nothing would have changed that, IMO.


The Trail Blazers are 6-8 without Clinigan. If you were to prorate that through 73 games, they would have 31 wins instead of the 32 wins they have now. They are 3-0 without Camera. They are 5-1 without Simons. They are 13-8 without Jabari Walker. They are 3-5 without Sharpe. The Trail Blazers are 1-5 without Deni.

It appears that Deni is their most important player and may have moved the Trail Blazers more than we would have predicted (the Trail Blazers over under was only 21). Apparently, Beal and KP were worth 20 wins as their win total decreased from 35-15 following their departures. For all hippotaumus's, is 2025 Deni better than either Beal or KP (given that Deni is healthy most of the time)?

If Deni is good enough to be worth 10+ wins, then it was even more foolish to dump him.


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The Wizards shoukd have drafted Derik Queen

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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1343 » by AFM » Thu Mar 27, 2025 7:20 pm

I don't get it. If Deni is that good then he should add a significant number of wins to our record. If he can't do that, why are we so upset about trading him.

Basically I'm being told that Deni is an All Star level player, but we'd still have a bottom 3 record if we had kept him. Do I have that right?
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1344 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Mar 27, 2025 7:22 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Kanyewest wrote:The Trail Blazers are 6-8 without Clinigan. If you were to prorate that through 73 games, they would have 31 wins instead of the 32 wins they have now. They are 3-0 without Camera. They are 5-1 without Simons. They are 13-8 without Jabari Walker. They are 3-5 without Sharpe. The Trail Blazers are 1-5 without Deni.

It appears that Deni is their most important player and may have moved the Trail Blazers more than we would have predicted (the Trail Blazers over under was only 21). Apparently, Beal and KP were worth 20 wins as their win total decreased from 35-15 following their departures. For all hippotaumus's, is 2025 Deni better than either Beal or KP (given that Deni is healthy most of the time)?

If Deni is good enough to be worth 10+ wins, then it was even more foolish to dump him.

Lies, damn lies and statistics. So, yeah, if you want to twist it - then you can't have it both ways. Are we saying that the improvement of all those Portland players were because of Deni as well, if so, think of the improvements to Bilal and our rookies. If so, with the wins and other players we traded away an all-star for a pick in the wrong draft.
Good players who formerly were surrounded by bad players, perhaps might look like great players when they get traded to a team with good players.

Deni's good got gooder.

He's on the verge of greatness.

(His improvement was predictable. The Wizards ignored his 43-point game. Advidja had a tremendous plus/minus as a Wizard)
The Wizards shoukd have drafted Derik Queen

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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1345 » by dckingsfan » Thu Mar 27, 2025 7:37 pm

AFM wrote:I don't get it. If Deni is that good then he should add a significant number of wins to our record. If he can't do that, why are we so upset about trading him.

Basically I'm being told that Deni is an All-Star level player, but we'd still have a bottom 3 record if we had kept him. Do I have that right?

No, not quite.

Others projected he was worth most of the additional wins for the Blazers, it isn't quite true (Deni is not an all-star... yet). If a player does come in and create a +10 wins, well then - that is a borderline all-star.

We are saying that coaching (and who we play) would have kept us in the bottom 4 (not changing our odds for the #1 pick). Yes, I do understand the notion that we might pick 7th instead of 5th say.

We are saying that trading into a weak draft was a mistake. We are saying signing Kuzma was a mistake which led to much of this.

I personally think this wasn't handled well. At the same time, I like that we have gone full-in on the rebuild. And that is terrific, it just could have been handled better. And I can't argue with playing the rookies major minutes for developing them and to get a better pick.
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1346 » by doclinkin » Thu Mar 27, 2025 8:18 pm

dckingsfan wrote:With respect, if we are going to compare front offices - it should be for the entire league otherwise this is just a strawman?


Why? We are talking about if the Wizards will better despite having traded Deni. Will we be in a better situation than Portland, who now has Deni? It's entirely relevant. Especially since we get their '29 pick. And have a pick swap with them in the same time frame. The worse they do, the better for us. If the moves the Wiz make put us in a better situation, then big picture we have been doing alright. Hard to nitpick on one or the other.

And I think we can agree that starting the rebuild in earnest is a good thing. Are you saying we can't question the moves along the way? Do you think there are guards in the '25 class with a higher ceiling (for example)?


After 14? Hmm... Early returns suggest maybe that AJ Johnson kid from the Bucks. Sure wish we could go back and get him too in some way.
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1347 » by dckingsfan » Thu Mar 27, 2025 8:28 pm

doclinkin wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:With respect, if we are going to compare front offices - it should be for the entire league otherwise this is just a strawman?

Why? We are talking about if the Wizards will better despite having traded Deni. Will we be in a better situation than Portland, who now has Deni? It's entirely relevant. Especially since we get their '29 pick. And have a pick swap with them in the same time frame. The worse they do, the better for us. If the moves the Wiz make put us in a better situation, then big picture we have been doing alright. Hard to nitpick on one or the other.

Ah, because there is the notion that the Wizards could have waited and traded him to another team for pick(s) in a different draft or kept him because he was that good.

It is a zero-sum game against the entire league and not one team (well, if you are trying to win a championship). To say that Portland made the wrong move doesn't necessarily equate to the Wizards making the right move.
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1348 » by dckingsfan » Thu Mar 27, 2025 8:31 pm

doclinkin wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:And I think we can agree that starting the rebuild in earnest is a good thing. Are you saying we can't question the moves along the way? Do you think there are guards in the '25 class with a higher ceiling (for example)?

After 14? Hmm... Early returns suggest maybe that AJ Johnson kid from the Bucks. Sure wish we could go back and get him too in some way.

Well, you are better at the draft than I - full stop.

If you feel that there aren't better guards in the '25 draft with higher ceilings, I will defer. After all, you wanted Haliburton, and I wanted Deni - so there is that.
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1349 » by MOSH » Thu Mar 27, 2025 9:21 pm

Read on Twitter


This is a great compilation.
I think he started doing this last year, but this year, he took it to another level...
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1350 » by doclinkin » Thu Mar 27, 2025 9:44 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
doclinkin wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:And I think we can agree that starting the rebuild in earnest is a good thing. Are you saying we can't question the moves along the way? Do you think there are guards in the '25 class with a higher ceiling (for example)?

After 14? Hmm... Early returns suggest maybe that AJ Johnson kid from the Bucks. Sure wish we could go back and get him too in some way.

Well, you are better at the draft than I - full stop.

If you feel that there aren't better guards in the '25 draft with higher ceilings, I will defer. After all, you wanted Haliburton, and I wanted Deni - so there is that.


At 14 I would have taken Kel'El Ware. Would not have taken Sarr at #2. Would bet on Castle instead. I saw Bub on a hunt for BBIQ/defensive boards for guards but given that he also couldn't shoot all that great I discarded him, figuring Castle was the better bet if I had to take a non-shooting guard. (The other guard I liked was taken earlier, Jared McCain).

But then I wouldn't have traded Deni and thus would not have that 14 pick available. Even now, despite my arguing the point, I'm 50/50 on the trade. Where I'm pushed to the 'yea' side is that this FO has done moves that I would not do and they seem to be working out well. So, my overall assessment is: wait and see. On Bub, I think at some point in his career he will dance on the edge of the 180 club for a good stretch. Averaging that 50/40/90%, with a good AST:TO ratio and decent defense. The question in my head is if he is able to increase his volume and maintain it, or if he is a low-mistake efficiency stat darling that only the nerds appreciate. That's the sliding bar between Tyus Jones/Monte Morris and Steve Nash. Do I think he has Steve Nash potential? Crazy as I am I actually do. He's smart like that. Cocky enough. And a lifer in the game. I'm not predicting it. It requires that he be obsessive in the offseasons to add new wrinkles to his game. But I am damn curious to see how he does grow each year. Looking forward to se what he picks up over this summer, If anything, given the death of Big Bub. Understandable if he needs to break down and reset and evaluate his priorities and grieve. Sorry for the kid, though shoot, I am happy his Pops got to see his boy make it to the league. That had to feel special. And then too I feel guilty. Don't know what he passed of, I sincerely hope the losing wasn't hard on his ticker.

dckingsfan wrote:It is a zero-sum game against the entire league and not one team (well, if you are trying to win a championship). To say that Portland made the wrong move doesn't necessarily equate to the Wizards making the right move.


I'm not saying Portland made a wrong move. They made a great move, for them. This is one of those rare trades that I think worked out for both sides. Portland needed a culture boost. Defense and improvement from youth. We needed a total re-set. No more trying for incremental improvement one player at a time. We needed to belly down into the mud and settle there for a bit, before we can rise to the light.

Four rookies plus Bilal and Tristan helps us do that. Even Bub helps us do that. Deni is a fine fine player and a good kid and I'm fond of him. His fans got on my nerves :D but that's not his fault. (Though according to some of them, nothing was ever his fault). But whatever. If these next 2 drafts go like I hope, then 5 years from now I think we might be unbothered by the loss of Avdija. So, along the way I'm curious to see how it develops. So far I like many of the moves they've made.
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1351 » by doclinkin » Thu Mar 27, 2025 10:09 pm

dckingsfan wrote:4-dimensional chess is not signing Kuzma in the first place :D


Talk to me in 2028.

Not only will we have 3 more years of AJ Johnson, but we traded Kuzma for a pick swap with the Bucks in 2028 (*). The Bucks are primed to blow it all up. Giannis has a player option in 27-28. When all the league is lining up cap space. You think he sticks with the Bucks forever? After making comments about how he is happy to see Euro players have big success in markets like LA. I think he gets enticed away to a winning team. I think the Blazers are poised to crater. And they have traded or swapped away most of their draft capital. I bet they shop Giannis to recoup something so he doesn't walk for free.

(*Ok, Portland has 1st dibs on this swap. We get 2nd choice. But the Blazers will have a challenge keeping their team together since all of their contracts come due at the same time. And by 2028 Deni is an unrestricted free agent. The Blazers may also be hitting re-set on everything).

Anyway, playing Kuzma earned us a high lotto pick. If we let him walk for free, what do we get with that asset? Given that Tommy Sheppard signed away our future first rounders, seems to me this FO has done pretty good trying to protect us from losing them. Part of that was keeping Kuzma and making him a high usage lodestone.

4D chess is: we sold Kuzma to the Bucks as a savior of their playoff hopes, while we stand to benefit if they do fall apart.
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1352 » by AFM » Thu Mar 27, 2025 10:41 pm

doclinkin wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:4-dimensional chess is not signing Kuzma in the first place :D


Talk to me in 2028.

Not only will we have 3 more years of AJ Johnson, but we traded Kuzma for a pick swap with the Bucks in 2028 (*). The Bucks are primed to blow it all up. Giannis has a player option in 27-28. When all the league is lining up cap space. You think he sticks with the Bucks forever? After making comments about how he is happy to see Euro players have big success in markets like LA. I think he gets enticed away to a winning team. I think the Blazers are poised to crater. And they have traded or swapped away most of their draft capital. I bet they shop Giannis to recoup something so he doesn't walk for free.

(*Ok, Portland has 1st dibs on this swap. We get 2nd choice. But the Blazers will have a challenge keeping their team together since all of their contracts come due at the same time. And by 2028 Deni is an unrestricted free agent. The Blazers may also be hitting re-set on everything).

Anyway, playing Kuzma earned us a high lotto pick. If we let him walk for free, what do we get with that asset? Given that Tommy Sheppard signed away our future first rounders, seems to me this FO has done pretty good trying to protect us from losing them. Part of that was keeping Kuzma and making him a high usage lodestone.


Exactly. We can sign Deni in 2028!!!!! 69D Chess!!!!!!!
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1353 » by payitforward » Thu Mar 27, 2025 11:16 pm

dckingsfan wrote:...We are saying signing Kuzma was a mistake which led to much of this....

Nope.
Signing Kuz was fine, because it was a good contract that enabled us to trade him. If we hadn't signed him we couldn't have traded him. We wouldn't have AJ -- not to mention Middleton.

If you think the declining contract wasn't crafted precisely in order to trade him... wrong again I'd say.

To put it slightly differently, if we hadn't signed Kuz, we would have had to sign someone else. Who do you think that would/should have been?

Would we have been better with that guy? But... we didn't want to be better this year.

Could that guy, whoever, have been traded for more at the deadline? Who would that be?

In short, signing Kuz was an outstanding business decision -- as we see in the results of that business decision.
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1354 » by The Consiglieri » Fri Mar 28, 2025 12:35 am

dckingsfan wrote:
The Consiglieri wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:4-dimensional chess is not signing Kuzma in the first place :D

4-dimensional chess is not taking a draft pick in '24 but in '25 or '26.

Just sayin'

I believe they were always trading Deni, period, the value of the contract, in years we would largely be tanking, was far more valuable as an asset to trade to other contending teams and for us to acquire foundational building blocks in picks and prospects, than it was in retaining said player and contract. Kuzma or not, I 1000% believe they viewed Deni as the most valuable piece they had to trade by winter/spring '24 to help with the tank and reboot. I just think they sold low on the value of him as a player and the value of his contract in a league where most players of his quality are overpaid by several orders of magnitude more than he is.

Last winter and spring ('24) when I speculated about such a trade and was kind of called "nuts" at the time, I figured there was a very strong chance they'd move him winter '25 at the earliest. The only thing that surprised me was that they moved him for the '24 class which made little sense to me.

Yup. Kuzma signing was checkers. Trading into '24 was checkers... all I am saying.


The only thing that makes me wonder a bit is if part of this was about staggering the --- out of assets, in terms of contract terms and for flippability. I've to be frank, never understood how this cap, this apron, this that, that this and everything inbetween work. It's monstrously confusing and convoluted to me. I get the sense that they are very much, staggering assets: 3 '24 rookie first, 2 '25 rookie first, 1 '26 rookie first so long as we pick in the top 8 or so, then we also have the swaps in '26, '28, and '30, a couple of extra firsts in that '27-'31 stretch or whatever....

It definitely feels like phase one is epic tanking '23-'26:

Phase 2 is one more tank year if necessary in '26-'27, then the swaps and the extra firsts and 2nds also become ammo.

The contracts are structured and the rookies are spread out, 1 in '23, 4 from the '24 first round now, 2, possibly 3 high end picks from '25, 1 or 1-2 from '26.

I definitely get the sense that there's more to this than I understand, but when it comes to Deni, I definitely think it was basically:

Look, the cheap years are the seasons ending '25-'28, we are going to be absolute crap for at least 2 and probably 3 of those seasons, so the cap savings the great extension gives us cannot be turned into a lot of value elsewhere as we make runs at the playoffs because we aren't making any run to the playoffs.

We would like to load up on ammo for '24-'29, by getting multiple firsts, multiple 2nds, a contract to trade, better tanking ability, and by potentially trading Deni to a team like Portland, we might push them out of the blue chip zone, and into the mediocrity 27-40 win zone, also know as the Boulez zone (that last piece I only just thought of, but it would be funny if there thought was: If we trade him there, we get this pick, and that later first could be higher simply because by getting Deni, and playing at retooling rather than rebuilding, the Blazers basically hit the dreaded 25-40 win wall, never good enough to have a top 5 pick, and never good enough to contend either, which is basically where the Wiz have been for the past 40 years generally). But suffice it to say, I think they wanted to start the full tank in '24, wanted to get multiple firsts and seconds, and the draft/team building flexibility that that would provide, and also get that assist for the tank by removing a player hitting his prime and high end efficiency, and replacing him with erratic aging out crap vets, and young players prone to mistake filled basketball while they learned the game.

I just think, probably like you, getting a '25 or '26 first was more important than a '24. Otoh, they may have reasoned, "we can either get firsts from playoff teams that suck, or we can get a first from a lottery late team that is in denial about how mediocre/bad they are, and it could end up a 14th pick here, and an 8th-12th pick or whatever down the road.

Not really sure, but I get what they were doing, I just wanted more.

All in all though, as I always say, too much probably, if we land a top 2 pick this year or next, we aren't going to give a ----, particularly if we land a top pick in both drafts. The reality is, Deni or no Deni, this team needed to face plant for 2-3 more seasons to have any chance at a successful rebuild, so no Deni was better for that objective. Just try to get a better payoff than that, and honestly, I would have traded him winter '24-'25, rather than for what they got, betting on Deni improving or at least staying jsut around as good.
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1355 » by doclinkin » Fri Mar 28, 2025 2:41 am

The Consiglieri wrote:The only thing that makes me wonder a bit is if part of this was about staggering the --- out of assets, in terms of contract terms and for flippability. I've to be frank, never understood how this cap, this apron, this that, that this and everything inbetween work. It's monstrously confusing and convoluted to me.


This is where they are showing diabolical smarts that are ahead of other teams. It is not simply about staggering assets, its about constantly getting an influx of new young talent.

The new CBA is set up to prevent teams from spending their way to championships. The more you spend over the cap, the more hamstrung you are in the moves you can make. You can't make 2-for-1 trades. Lose your mid-level exceptions etc. And the more consistently you exceed the cap, the harsher the financial penalties get. Like exponentially worse. At a certain point that means all expensive teams have to blow it up and bottom out. There is a detonator ticking down on any team that is 'all in' on wins.

Max contract superstars tend to be the best players in the league. Until they are not. Teams that win have to pay to retain their guys. Winners are pricey. If that team is good a long time, they likely have multiple guys who are in demand. One by one they have to reward them. Multiple max deals on a team. At the point at which they are no longer winning they then have to dump salary to escape the guillotine of those increasing penalties.

The Wiz braintrust learned from the OKC model who profit by keeping their cap clean so they can play the Bring Out Your Dead method by accepting highly paid ex-stars into their paysheet, along with future draft picks from the team who has to pay to dump them. We hold these contracts until they become expiring, at which point other teams will pay more picks to trade for them since it will give their own books a colonic when they expire.

Which means the Wiz get extra picks from teams that are struggling with past decisions and may be on the edge of a fall. Perhaps teams that have proven to mismanage their cap.

Picks are the goal. Productive draft picks on their first contract are the cheapest asset you can get. You are only guaranteed two draft picks per year. One first and one second. The OKC model says: nuh uh. Constantly trade for other teams' surplus picks. So that you always have extra swings at the pinata. If you trust your scouting and draft philosophy, you might luck into a gem even later in the first round.

Winger and Dawkins added a couple extra wrinkles. They collect 2nd round picks not to hoard them but to spend them. Trade up the draft ladder to increase your %'s at the margins. That is. The same way you and I have been arguing how important it is to stay afloat the tankstakes at the top of shxtheap, the Wiz brain trust make that a constant practice. The way nate argues that there is marginal difference between pick 5 and pick 6, the Wiz look at it the opposite way. They want to sift those marginal %'s in their favor and constantly climb up the draft chart because over time those marginal differences will work in their favor. To do so they freely spend 2nd round picks.

We shipped 2nd rd picks to move up to take Bilal.
Dropped surplus 2nd round ballast to ensure we got Kyshawn.
In our trade deadline moves this year we sent out two 2nd rounders to get back a (retroactive) 2024 1st round pick (AJJ), future 1st rounders, and pick swaps.

That pick swap deal is a potential secret weapon. The Stepien rule prevents stupid teams from sending consecutive 1st round picks and mortgaging their future entirely. However, a pick swap keeps their thumb on the scale. Stupid teams don't care about future picks because they are desperate for immediate return. If you can afford to take the long view you can feast on their shortsightedness. I've banged the drum on the topic ever since the Beal trade, but a pick swap dumps all of their lotto combos into your hopper. If they miss the playoffs, you instantly have extra lottery tickets. Even if you win the championship, you still have lotto chances. Nate is right that the worst team rarely wins the top pick. The Wiz often have been stung by a bad bounce even with a worse record. We missed Wemby by one number. With pick swaps that's fine, it means on the odds chart we get to add all of the other teams numbers to our own. Even if they have a better record.

So. Even if we land franchise players and suddenly start doing well, we still have a chance to add new young talent in future years. And because picks are a zero sum game, every extra pick we land is one that another team lacks. Even if we win and our top talent gets pricey, we still have extra players coming up behind them. Cheaper replacements. Understudies. Depth and youth.

The other thing that seems to be a philosophy of theirs is to try to extend players early, on team friendly deals. Declining if possible. Flat if not. With option years under their control. Or non guaranteed $. That way if they break out, like Deni, they have a highly desirable asset. If they have a later career vet (Kuzma) the contract becomes easier to trade as the cost declines. More valuable to teams that are struggling to pay the bills. Sometimes it fails when a player who had been on an upward trajectory flatlines or regresses (Kispert). But in all, if you think your player may break out, extend them early before they become too expensive. Here it helps that they are drafting young. If players generally break out in their age 25 year, and you drafted them at 19, you may get a chance to re-up them at a bargain since they are extension eligible before they hit that break out age. Hopefully you keep them cheap.

At some point the players themselves become trade assets. Once you have a core of guys you like, you can shuffle the deck for roster balance and trade off surplus youth at redundant positions for other players that fit better. Or for a haul of 1st round picks later on, to reshuffle the deck in the future when your homegrown talent starts becoming too pricey to keep.

Their plan is to get good then always be good. Or at least have a chance. And to profit off of other teams poor decisions. We haven't yet seen it. But to me 2026 is the true test. Because PHX is primed to topple. And if we can hold on to a top 8 pick, then we get all of their lotto combos and all of our own. If we both end up bottom 4 we get a 100% chance at a top 4 pick, 80% of top 3, 55% of a top 2 pick, and double the chance at #1 overall. In a year that scouts expect to be historically good.

But yeah, or we could have Deni. And a chance to not land in the top 8. So the Penguin gets our pick. Shrug. Thanks Tommy, for that one year rental of Westbrook. That was fun.
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1356 » by payitforward » Fri Mar 28, 2025 1:50 pm

Although the swipe at Tommy Sheppard was unnecessary -- we got a TON of value for John Wall via that trade! -- doc's given us a home-run take on what Dawkins & the new FO is up to -- great stuff Doc!
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1357 » by doclinkin » Fri Mar 28, 2025 2:49 pm

payitforward wrote:Although the swipe at Tommy Sheppard was unnecessary -- we got a TON of value for John Wall via that trade!


We did? We got Westbrook for a year. That’s it. It was a fun year. But it meant we had to tank for 4 years straight or else lose our 1st rounder.

It was the tail end of the rebuild from the middle strategy that we’ve had since Grunfeld. I like Tommy. He pulled off some wild trades. It’s impressive that we got anything for an injured Wall, who never recovered his game after that.

But it meant our cupboard was bare when Dawkins’n ‘em took over. It scripted our strategy for the next 3 years out.
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1358 » by TGW » Fri Mar 28, 2025 3:41 pm

MOSH wrote:
Read on Twitter


This is a great compilation.
I think he started doing this last year, but this year, he took it to another level...


Good lord.

The one skill that Carrington will never develop IMO. Downhill attacking and scoring in the paint. Pressuring defenses.
Some random troll wrote:Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster.
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1359 » by Kanyewest » Fri Mar 28, 2025 4:15 pm

doclinkin wrote:
payitforward wrote:Although the swipe at Tommy Sheppard was unnecessary -- we got a TON of value for John Wall via that trade!


We did? We got Westbrook for a year. That’s it. It was a fun year. But it meant we had to tank for 4 years straight or else lose our 1st rounder.

It was the tail end of the rebuild from the middle strategy that we’ve had since Grunfeld. I like Tommy. He pulled off some wild trades. It’s impressive that we got anything for an injured Wall, who never recovered his game after that.

But it meant our cupboard was bare when Dawkins’n ‘em took over. It scripted our strategy for the next 3 years out.


Also KCP, Harrell, and a first. But yeah Tommy diminished those assets by trading KCP for Monte/Barton and trading the first for Isiah Todd. Still managed to trade Harrell for a 2023 2nd, and Dawkins/Winger traded Morris for a 2024 2nd.

But Monte Morris did give Deni the nickname of Turbo.
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Re: Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon 

Post#1360 » by doclinkin » Fri Mar 28, 2025 4:23 pm

Kanyewest wrote:
doclinkin wrote:
payitforward wrote:Although the swipe at Tommy Sheppard was unnecessary -- we got a TON of value for John Wall via that trade!


We did? We got Westbrook for a year. That’s it. It was a fun year. But it meant we had to tank for 4 years straight or else lose our 1st rounder.

It was the tail end of the rebuild from the middle strategy that we’ve had since Grunfeld. I like Tommy. He pulled off some wild trades. It’s impressive that we got anything for an injured Wall, who never recovered his game after that.

But it meant our cupboard was bare when Dawkins’n ‘em took over. It scripted our strategy for the next 3 years out.


Also KCP, Harrell, and a first. But yeah Tommy diminished those assets by trading KCP for Monte/Barton and trading the first for Isiah Todd. Still managed to trade Harrell for a 2023 2nd, and Dawkins/Winger traded Morris for a 2024 2nd.

But Monte Morris did give Deni the nickname of Turbo.


You mean after we traded Westbrook? Sure, we got more. Kuzma KCP etc. But it was the Wall for Westbrook trade that stuck us with the threat of lotto pick loss for years out. I'm not a fan of trading any future first round picks, so it is nice if we can escape it with minimal penalty due to the protections on the pick, but still, it has meant that there is no strategy except for tanking until we get out from under it.

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