Official Trade Thread Part XLVI

[closg00]

The Lakers are also said to be interested, at-least GSW has picks to be in the running, our signing Jonas could end up being this FO’s best move.

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[nate33]

The Lakers are also said to be interested, at-least GSW has picks to be in the running, our signing Jonas could end up being this FO’s best move.

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I'd trade JV for Looney's expiring contract if Golden State reduced the protection on the 2030 pick they owe us from top 20 protected to top 4 protected.

[payitforward]

Jazz are rebuilding and not suckers enough to trade a do it all forward for a low-ball return like we did. This is what a well run franchise does even if you hate Ainge. Lauri is 4 years older than Deni, too....

1. We didn't get a low-ball return for Deni.
2. Right now, Markkanen is a much better player than Deni. He was also better 2 years ago than Deni has ever been yet.

Conclusion: what Ainge does about Markkanen is irrelevant to our having traded Deni.

Keep dreaming if you think Kuzma will ever net anything more than a filler and a mid-first....

Right you are, & I'd have grabbed an offer of that kind. But, our turning down a particular offer doesn't make Kuz less tradable. Esp. with his declining salary.

This offseason is basically gone to show us that we are obviously the only franchise that has such a high opinion of Kyle Kuzma the basketball player.

What evidence do you have of Will's "high opinion" of Kuzma as a basketball player?
Answer: none.

Being a nice guy off the court and a good player on the court are two different stories....

To be sure, & I want Kuzma to be traded too. But...

NBA teams are entertainment businesses. You're clear on that, right?
If Winger & Dawkins think they need a guy like Kuz to sell tickets -- for whatever reason -- that fact militates against trading him. Or, better, it may put off the day we trade him. No surprise. Not a problem. Not a sign of incompetence. Period.

[gambitx777]

The Lakers are also said to be interested, at-least GSW has picks to be in the running, our signing Jonas could end up being this FO’s best move.

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I'd trade JV for Looney's expiring contract if Golden State reduced the protection on the 2030 pick they owe us from top 20 protected to top 4 protected.

Yeah that seems to be a decent value options unprotect that pick for a dude we signed for free that's pretty good added value to the beal trade.

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[Frichuela]

A Russell Poole pairing would be so lol

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[Benjammin]

Poole and Russell would be an amazing tank combination though.

[nate33]

A Russell Poole pairing would be so lol

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I wonder if the Lakers were including their #17 pick in that trade package? My guess is that they were. It wouldn't even be rumor worthy if it was just a straight up trade of Russell for Kuzma. Obviously we wouldn't do that.

This puts the Deni trade in a different light. That #17 pick plus the #26 pick should have been enough to trade up and acquire Bub. Hell, Bub might have been there at #17.

Basically, instead of trading Deni and adding Bub, Brogdon's expiring contract, Kyshawn, and a mid FRP in 2029, we could have traded Kuzma and added Bub, Russell's expiring contract and the #51 pick.

I'd have been pretty excited about a developing young roster featuring Sheppard, Bub, Bilal and Deni! Valanciunas, Kispert and Poole would provide some veteran support. Russell could be flipped for any halfway useful big forward we could find (Deandre Hunter?); or maybe we just buy him out.

It also works with Sarr in place of Sheppard where we stick with our "length at each position" philosophy.
PG Bub
SG Poole/Kispert
SF Bilal/Kispert
PF Deni/Sarr
C JV/Sarr

[pcbothwel]

A Russell Poole pairing would be so lol

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This was my problem with the CP3-Poole trade. That no defense, combo guard, chucker playstyle limits us on other trades due to the catastrophic fit with other similar players. Not only will we lose games, but the morale of the team will be complete suck and probably hurt younger players.

[nate33]

A Russell Poole pairing would be so lol

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This was my problem with the CP3-Poole trade. That no defense, combo guard, chucker playstyle limits us on other trades due to the catastrophic fit with other similar players. Not only will we lose games, but the morale of the team will be complete suck and probably hurt younger players.

I don't even care about Russell's fit alongside Poole. If he doesn't fit, just cut him.

[pcbothwel]

A Russell Poole pairing would be so lol

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=GWeuz7j_sc5cBYZzdD92Tw

This was my problem with the CP3-Poole trade. That no defense, combo guard, chucker playstyle limits us on other trades due to the catastrophic fit with other similar players. Not only will we lose games, but the morale of the team will be complete suck and probably hurt younger players.

I don't even care about Russell's fit alongside Poole. If he doesn't fit, just cut him.

Sorry... but this is just terrible value/business. Just because we are rebuilding/tanking, doesnt mean we can just dump "Now Value" because it doesnt suit us.
Over the last two years, DLO has started almost every game at PG in a BRUTAL Western Conference with the following stat line:
Per36 - 20 / 3.5 / 7 (2.5:1 AST:TOV Ratio)
Splits - 46 / 41 / 83 (TS = 60%) & BPM of 1.2

If we dont get value out of that guy on a 1/18M contract, then Dawkins has NO business being GM.
Which goes back to my point, Poole makes this trade untenable.

[payitforward]

...if the Lakers were including their #17 pick...Basically, instead of trading Deni and adding Bub, Brogdon's expiring contract, Kyshawn, and a mid FRP in 2029, we could have traded Kuzma and added Bub, Russell's expiring contract and the #51 pick. ...

Nate! You included that #51 pick you said mattered not at all to you! Good!
But... you left out the two R2 picks we are also getting in the real-world version of the trade that actually happened.

& of course, this assumes that the Lakers would have include the #17 pick, the one with which they took Dalton Knecht.

Hence, keeping as close to what happened as possible, while still assuming the #17 was part of the deal, we'd have

D'Angelo Russell
Dalton Knecht
Deni Avdija
Melvin Ajinca (since he was the actual #51 pick).

Instead, we have

Malcolm Brogdon
Bub Carrington
Kyle Kuzma
a 2029 R1 pick
a 2028 R2 pick
a 2030 R2 pick

Is that correct?

[nate33]

This was my problem with the CP3-Poole trade. That no defense, combo guard, chucker playstyle limits us on other trades due to the catastrophic fit with other similar players. Not only will we lose games, but the morale of the team will be complete suck and probably hurt younger players.

I don't even care about Russell's fit alongside Poole. If he doesn't fit, just cut him.

Sorry... but this is just terrible value/business. Just because we are rebuilding/tanking, doesnt mean we can just dump "Now Value" because it doesnt suit us.
Over the last two years, DLO has started almost every game at PG in a BRUTAL Western Conference with the following stat line:
Per36 - 20 / 3.5 / 7 (2.5:1 AST:TOV Ratio)
Splits - 46 / 41 / 83 (TS = 60%) & BPM of 1.2

If we dont get value out of that guy on a 1/18M contract, then Dawkins has NO business being GM.
Which goes back to my point, Poole makes this trade untenable.

Russell plays terrible defense. He is not an asset at $18M.

Find me the team that would trade anything of value for him and I will recant my statement. If you can't find such a trade, then my point stands. He is valueless as an asset, so we would be better off cutting him and giving his minutes to young developing players. It aids their development while adding lotto balls.

[payitforward]

I suppose we should look at it based on nate's assumption that 17 & 26 would bring us Bub. So then, it's:

D'Angelo Russell
Bub Carrington
Deni Avdija
Melvin Ajinca (since he was the actual #51 pick).

Instead, we have

Malcolm Brogdon
Bub Carrington
Kyshaun George
Kyle Kuzma
a 2029 R1 pick
a 2028 R2 pick
a 2030 R2 pick

I think that's right...

[nate33]

...if the Lakers were including their #17 pick...Basically, instead of trading Deni and adding Bub, Brogdon's expiring contract, Kyshawn, and a mid FRP in 2029, we could have traded Kuzma and added Bub, Russell's expiring contract and the #51 pick. ...

Nate! You included that #51 pick you said mattered not at all to you! Good!
But... you left out the two R2 picks we are also getting in the real-world version of the trade that actually happened.

& of course, this assumes that the Lakers would have include the #17 pick, the one with which they took Dalton Knecht.

Hence, keeping as close to what happened as possible, while still assuming the #17 was part of the deal, we'd have

D'Angelo Russell
Dalton Knecht
Deni Avdija
Melvin Ajinca (since he was the actual #51 pick).

Instead, we have

Malcolm Brogdon
Bub Carrington
Kyle Kuzma
a 2029 R1 pick
a 2028 R2 pick
a 2030 R2 pick

Is that correct?

Yes.

But that assumes Portland would have drafted Bub at #14 which seems pretty unlikely to me given their guard situation (they would still have Brogdon, in addition to Scoot, Simons, Sharpe). I suspect Portland would have taken Knecht with that pick. So does Miami draft Bub at #15? Or do they address their bigger need at center with Ware? And if Miami doesn't take Bub, what does Philly do? Do they like Bub over McCain?

The point is, Bub almost surely falls to at least #15 in this scenario, if not #16 or #17. And since neither Miami or Philly are in desperate need of an 18-year-old guard, I think it wouldn't have been that hard to trade up from #17 to get him if one of them picked him at #15 or #16. There's a reasonable chance that Bub would have fallen all the way to #17.

So even if it took the #26 pick to move up from #17 to get Bub, I say we would be in a much better situation with both Deni and Bub on the roster, even if meant we missed out on the #26, the Portland 2029 FRP, and two other SRP's.

[payitforward]

Thus,

1. treating Russell as a guy who could simply be cut -- i.e. as not actually adding value -- as nate did &
2. leaving Carrington off both lists, b/c he has the same value either way...

...the LA trade leaves us with

Deni Avdija
Melvin Ajinca (the actual #51 pick)

while the trade we actuall did leaves us with

Kyle Kuzma
Kyshaun George
Malcolm Brogdon
a 2029 FRP
a 2028 R2 pick
a 2030 R2 pick

Do I have that right?

[dckingsfan]

I wonder if the Lakers were including their #17 pick in that trade package? My guess is that they were. It wouldn't even be rumor worthy if it was just a straight up trade of Russell for Kuzma. Obviously we wouldn't do that.

This puts the Deni trade in a different light. That #17 pick plus the #26 pick should have been enough to trade up and acquire Bub. Hell, Bub might have been there at #17.

Basically, instead of trading Deni and adding Bub, Brogdon's expiring contract, Kyshawn, and a mid FRP in 2029, we could have traded Kuzma and added Bub, Russell's expiring contract and the #51 pick.

I'd have been pretty excited about a developing young roster featuring Sheppard, Bub, Bilal and Deni! Valanciunas, Kispert and Poole would provide some veteran support. Russell could be flipped for any halfway useful big forward we could find (Deandre Hunter?); or maybe we just buy him out.

It also works with Sarr in place of Sheppard where we stick with our "length at each position" philosophy.

PG Bub
SG Poole/Kispert
SF Bilal/Kispert
PF Deni/Sarr
C JV/Sarr

Yeah, there were ways to get it done... this FO is doing okay and they have started the rebuild. I just think the lack of creativity and the swing and miss on Poole make it good or very good, just not great.

[nate33]

Thus,

1. treating Russell as a guy who could simply be cut -- i.e. as not actually adding value -- as nate did &
2. leaving Carrington off both lists, b/c he has the same value either way...

...the LA trade leaves us with

Deni Avdija
Melvin Ajinca (the actual #51 pick)

while the trade we actuall did leaves us with

Kyle Kuzma
Kyshaun George
Malcolm Brogdon
a 2029 FRP
a 2028 R2 pick
a 2030 R2 pick

Do I have that right?

Yes. Though I'll add that I don't really value Brogdon much either, not on an expiring contract paying him $22.5M. If you want to be precise, leave Russell in there so at least you can match him up with Brogdon in terms of value.

So it's:

Deni, Russell, #51
or
Kuzma, Brodgon, Kyshawn, 2029 FRP, 2028 SRP, 2030 SRP

And that's assuming a worst-case scenario that we had to trade the #26 to move up from #17 to #15.

[AFM]

You're all suffering from an extreme case of PTSD (Post Trade Syndrome de Deni)

It's extremely tiring

edit: then again, the fact that I find myself in agreement with PIF is worrying...

[payitforward]

...But that assumes Portland would have drafted Bub at #14 which seems pretty unlikely to me given their guard situation (they would still have Brogdon, in addition to Scoot, Simons, Sharpe). I suspect Portland would have taken Knecht with that pick.... Bub almost surely falls to at least #15 in this scenario, if not #16 or #17.

LOL -- you've rejiggered the whole value proposition, nate! That's going a bit too far, I'd say. You're doing your idea a bit too big a favor!

Obviously, if I know that at 17 I'll get the same guy I want at 14, well then... I'll take any extra value at all to swap the picks. A cheeseburger does the trick! If that's all I can get, fine; pass the ketchup!

OTOH

...even if it took the #26 pick to move up from #17 to get Bub, I say we would be in a much better situation with both Deni and Bub on the roster, even if meant we missed out on the #26, the Portland 2029 FRP, and two other SRP's.

...is a straightforward claim. I.e. you might be right. Or wrong. Or the situations turn out to be equal -- though different, obviously.

That said, it's a pretty strong claim: we'll get to find out -- tho not any time soon, obviously.

But, there is a good chance -- for sure -- that we'll be worse this year than if we hadn't made the trade. I.e. Bub would have to get off to quite a running start to equal Deni's productivity of last year (which may improve this year, for that matter!). It's not altogether inconceivable, I suppose, but it seems pretty unlikely.

Of course, my version assumes away any value that D'Angelo Russell might have -- as a player or a trade chip. In truth, I think that's pretty much fair...

[dckingsfan]

You're all suffering from an extreme case of PTSD (Post Trade Syndrome de Deni)

It's extremely tiring

edit: then again, the fact that I find myself in agreement with PIF is worrying...

And I thought it was a case of the post poopoo trade.