Political Roundtable Part XXXIV

[closg00]

The same that always happens when somebody is getting shot in the USA.

I doubt it'll change much of anything.

I totally disagree, this country is full of nutters as it is, his death WILL be avenged, and perhaps on a large scale.

Normally I'd be of the view that this will wash away in the media cycle, but at this point as Ezra mentioned, since Jan 2001 alone we've had people storm the capital, attack Pelosi and her husband, shoot and kill politicians in Minnesota, attempt to kill the gov of Pennsylvania, attempt to kill trump twice, this thing, and there's more than that too that I'm not even mentioning. It is clearly starting to accelerate, and this guy was much beloved on the conservative christian far right portion of the country.

I've been wanting this country to "break up" for about 15 years, and at this point, I'm just about ready to demand it. We absolutely need a divorce into regional countries, this is only gonna get worse w/time. I can't figure out if this is going Yugoslavia style, or something else, the rural/urban divide piece makes it very complicated.

Ironically MTG is right, the country needs a national divorce, me, I looking to leave the country all-together for a while as-soon as my kid is in college.

[The Consiglieri]

My kids 9, so I have quite a few more years, but I'm looking into Canadian citizenship again. My father was born in Vancouver, British Columbia, moved to California when he was 8 back in the 1940's. We are tempted. I love Vancouver, love the area, and the Island where some of my cousins live, Alberta less so (where other cousins live) and I don't remember Nova Scotia, where still more family lives. It's so tempting though. This feels so broken. So completely broken. People really, really, hate each other. Usually, if we just meet each other and politics doesn't come it, its fine, but once politics comes up, the walls emerge. Admittedly I think about 10-15% of liberals are flat out insane, and about 30-35% of Republicans (the Q anon and original die hard magaas's), but honestly are the republican voters who don't buy it, but are fine with oppressing Latino's, betraying Ukraine, and supporting an obvious dunderheaded liar and monster in Trump even worse? They know better, and don't care. What's worse? The bystanders who were comfortable with people being lead off to the gas chambers, just couldn't be bothered other than to steal their silverware and art collection after they were packed off to Treblinka, or the Schutzstafel, true believers? Which is worse? Republicans aren't nazi's of course, but anyone who knows their history can find plenty of echoes with people that were fine with the slow but steady drift from Weimar Republic in the 1920's to the murderous stage of the Nazi's from 1936-1945. It's a lazy analogy, and yet, not that lazy. At least the Nazi's had WWI and its horrors, and the worst economic disaster imaginable from hyperinflation, to the Great Depression, to justify eating Hitler's soft, and easy lies, what excuse do people have today to be buying trumps lies? There's no reasonable analogy between covid suffering, having to put on a mask, or listen to Fauci and Biden, with the Spanish Freaking Flu, WWI, the horrors of trench warfare, the worst western world economic disaster imaginagle+the Great Depression. It's ludicrous. So crazy to think about.

[Kanyewest]

He died, I am mortified by what may happen next

The same that always happens when somebody is getting shot in the USA.

I doubt it'll change much of anything.

I totally disagree, this country is full of nutters as it is, his death WILL be avenged, and perhaps on a large scale.

The country is already down the rabbit hole. There was already a person impersonating a police officer that shot two state senators. Perhaps this will lead to more shootings but there was already another school shooting today that may not be getting as much press because of what happened to Charlie Kirk.

[Zonkerbl]

Holy crapballs, Charlie Kirk murdered. Talk about reaping what you sow

[AFM]

What a crazy thing to say. Your brain on bluesky, right there.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

Holy crapballs, Charlie Kirk murdered. Talk about reaping what you sow

What an ugly thing to say. Claimed bleeding heart and your real stripes just can't be hidden.

I didn't follow Charlie Kirk closely but knew that he was a prominent figure/voice of the right/far right, whatever you want to call it, but absolutely whatever your political bent is, this should be viewed as nothing but horrific and tragic. This person had a family, two young children, was actually out there talking to people, debating people in person, not some keyboard warrior like most of us, and was shot in the throat answering a question and you are talking about "reaping what you sow"? You charlatan, the ugliness you despise is exactly what you've become.

[Kanyewest]

Holy crapballs, Charlie Kirk murdered. Talk about reaping what you sow

Yeah I have been seeing a lot of it online

Read on Twitter

?

Still unfortunate I guess but he did state that he didn't think all gun deaths were not preventable and ''he was willing to make that sacrifice''.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Honestly, I had never heard of Charlie Kirk.

I looked his Wikipedia page up and his quotes on record:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Kirk
https://www.brainyquote.com/authors/charlie-kirk-quotes

All i can say is that everyone should be allowed to express their political and social views. I feel for his family and him. R.i.P. Charlie Kirk

I think this was done by a professional hit man who had military experience. This assassin might never be apprehended.

[queridiculo]

My heart breaks for Kirk's family, and everybody who loved that piece of ****, it really does.

Looking through my social feeds though I do wonder.

Where is that same energy for all of the people affected by the policies this **** stain pushed?

Where is that energy for all the people that lost family members to gun violence, which didn't elicit much more than a "aw shucks, that's the cost of freedom" from that cum stain?

Evergreen High School? Crickets.

I am sick of having to listen to all of these hypocrites justify their disdain for everybody that doesn't look, talk, think or behave like them, and then turn around claiming the moral high ground.

The world IS a better place without people that think like him.

If I have to see another picture of him holding a baby I am going to have to throw up.

I am sorry.

If I see a black pilot, I'm going to be like "Boy, I hope he's qualified".

[pancakes3]

Holy crapballs, Charlie Kirk murdered. Talk about reaping what you sow

What an ugly thing to say. Claimed bleeding heart and your real stripes just can't be hidden.

I didn't follow Charlie Kirk closely but knew that he was a prominent figure/voice of the right/far right, whatever you want to call it, but absolutely whatever your political bent is, this should be viewed as nothing but horrific and tragic. This person had a family, two young children, was actually out there talking to people, debating people in person, not some keyboard warrior like most of us, and was shot in the throat answering a question and you are talking about "reaping what you sow"? You charlatan, the ugliness you despise is exactly what you've become.

Charlie Kirk wasn't of a "political bent." He was an a-hole who promoted disgusting and dangerous rhetoric for personal gain. A charlatan, if you will. Don't characterize his performative debates as civic engagement. He's not a martyr who was killed for "political beliefs" because race-baiting and transphobia are not political beliefs. They're manifestations of deeply hateful and barbaric prejudices that have no place in political discourse, and yet he insisted on injecting it into that discourse. I'm not going to go so far as to say he got what he deserved, but he was no innocent. It is very sad that Kirk died, but I'm not shedding any tears over Kirk when thousands of much better people than him were killed today with zero press.

To the extent that I feel sorry for him, I feel sorry that he ended up being a sacrificial lamb for the right wing apparatus that gave him his platform.I feel sorry that when he was 18, a lost and deeply frustrated college dropout, he was identified and platformed by the metasticizing tea party to be the face of a political pet project for radicalizing young people to right wing beliefs, and got sucked into all of this. I feel sorry that he had to take the bullet on behalf of his billionaire-class puppet masters who funded his operation.

I agree that Charlie was reaping what he sowed, but to be clear, I am not saying he reaped a bullet because of his stance on the second amendment. I mean that he reaped political violence because he has spent the past 10 years stoking the flames of political violence. The fact that he's not relegated to a keyboard warrior is a major reason why this country is where it is. Why so many on this board has openly called for a national divorce. Why frustration abounds. Why actual discourse and debate is no longer possible.

[daoneandonly]

Zero shock regarding the responses here.

CCJ and Dob, yes, we probably disagree on most political issues, but thank you for saying what anyone with an empathetic heart would: no one deserved to be murdered like this.

But from the start, this thread has shown the nonexistent character and values of zonk, querdi, and the most overrated breakfast item in the world. This is a young man with two little babies, it makes you want to throw up seeing a pic of him being a father? Of course it does, he and his wife relished that gift and owned up to their responsibilities, not took the easy way out that you so "valiantly" support. Those little babies are probably looking for their daddy right now, wondering where he is. And you take joy in this. He sparked a movement to persuade people to get out and vote (even if they didn't have to show their ID to prove its really them, because somehow that's racist), and that helped Trump, and for that, you think he deserved to die? Wow, talk about disgusting and reprehensible. Hey Hilary, here's that basket you talked about.

Come on monte, you are a solid poster and mod, this disregard for any kind of humanity is going to go without any type of repercussion?

[queridiculo]

Somebody think about the poor children.

[doclinkin]

CCJ and Dob, yes, we probably disagree on most political issues, but thank you for saying what anyone with an empathetic heart would: no one deserved to be murdered like this.

I think the worst aspect of this is not a single man’s public death. As Charlie Kirk himself said that’s a price we pay for having a 2nd amendment that protects the right to take a life above the rights to live that life. Those who followed him loudly agreed. Those who argue against this mindset still hate that he was taken down by that same mindset.

No. The worst aspect is that this violence is now a part of our political discourse. Kirk was not the first and won’t be the last. Likely by those who seek to even the score. As if that mindset itself isn’t the sickness. “Live by the sword, die by the sword; eye for an eye”, etc. We find ourselves in a cycle where the belief systems of those you disagree with are checked against a tally sheet of who died. Kirk did not loudly rail against the murder of two democratic lawmakers. Nor did the resident of the White House. Hell he pardons those who commit violence on his behalf.

Writ small that means there are those who see cold irony in the death of a loudspoken pundit who promoted violence and division. Or the public murder of an insurance CEO whose heartless policies meant the death and suffering of thousands. Noting that irony does not mean you celebrate cruelty. But it does numb something inside you to recognize you live in a world that does keep score on atrocity.

Because in the grand scale this mindset translates into the bombing and starvation of thousands of helpless people in the Middle East simply because they hold different beliefs or are children born into a family that does.

And in the short term the chilling effect means there will be others who feel justification in violence as a means of expressing their political views. Not simply holding a sign or getting out the vote or peacefully marching. Or holding a public debate. But trying to cancel the voices on either side.

Violence is the language of the inarticulate. Frustrated and powerless. As you take away people’s sense of common participation in this thing, Democracy, as you elevate and celebrate cruelty and remove people’s ability to vote for peaceful resolution, as you declare enemies in those who disagree with you or as you promote the rights of the powerful and force the struggling folks to look for scapegoats, you will foster desperation in some who feel they can only be heard in a violent act.

Kirk promoted gun rights and against background checks etc. Accepted that school shootings are a byproduct of that ‘freedom’. It was horrible when he promoted it, it’s still horrible that the world he promoted was the thing that got him permanently silenced. Those who hate that mindset are still fighting to change it, not surrendering to it and accepting it.

And by fighting I mean still trying to pass wise laws. Still trying to convince people that we are in this damned thing together. Trying to vote to change it. And keep those votes from being stolen. So that civilization is still the counter argument to barbarism.

[daoneandonly]

Yeah check it out, arguably the best charity in the world, Compassion International. I highly recommend donating and being a part of it. They are a blessing and make a true difference to those in need.

But you wouldn't know anything about a charity that starts with the word Compassion.

[queridiculo]

Zero shock regarding the responses here.

CCJ and Dob, yes, we probably disagree on most political issues, but thank you for saying what anyone with an empathetic heart would: no one deserved to be murdered like this.

But from the start, this thread has shown the nonexistent character and values of zonk, querdi, and the most overrated breakfast item in the world. This is a young man with two little babies, it makes you want to throw up seeing a pic of him being a father?

It makes me throw up seeing people attempting to humanize a cruel, irredeemable individual by posting family pictures.

As if having a family is somehow the distinguishing characteristic of being a good person, hence the Rudolf Höss reference.

Of course it does, he and his wife relished that gift and owned up to their responsibilities, not took the easy way out that you so "valiantly" support.

My son was conceived through in vitro fertilization.

Before giving birth to a healthy boy my partner suffered half a dozen miscarriages.

Despite that excruciating experience, we both support a woman's right to "take the easy way out".

Those little babies are probably looking for their daddy right now, wondering where he is. And you take joy in this.

Who is taking joy in this? I shared my grief for the bereaved.

That doesn't change the fact that Charlie Kirk was a piece of excrement, and that there are many others like him.

[closg00]

My kids 9, so I have quite a few more years, but I'm looking into Canadian citizenship again. My father was born in Vancouver, British Columbia, moved to California when he was 8 back in the 1940's. We are tempted. I love Vancouver, love the area, and the Island where some of my cousins live, Alberta less so (where other cousins live) and I don't remember Nova Scotia, where still more family lives. It's so tempting though. This feels so broken. So completely broken. People really, really, hate each other. Usually, if we just meet each other and politics doesn't come it, its fine, but once politics comes up, the walls emerge. Admittedly I think about 10-15% of liberals are flat out insane, and about 30-35% of Republicans (the Q anon and original die hard magaas's), but honestly are the republican voters who don't buy it, but are fine with oppressing Latino's, betraying Ukraine, and supporting an obvious dunderheaded liar and monster in Trump even worse? They know better, and don't care. What's worse? The bystanders who were comfortable with people being lead off to the gas chambers, just couldn't be bothered other than to steal their silverware and art collection after they were packed off to Treblinka, or the Schutzstafel, true believers? Which is worse? Republicans aren't nazi's of course, but anyone who knows their history can find plenty of echoes with people that were fine with the slow but steady drift from Weimar Republic in the 1920's to the murderous stage of the Nazi's from 1936-1945. It's a lazy analogy, and yet, not that lazy. At least the Nazi's had WWI and its horrors, and the worst economic disaster imaginable from hyperinflation, to the Great Depression, to justify eating Hitler's soft, and easy lies, what excuse do people have today to be buying trumps lies? There's no reasonable analogy between covid suffering, having to put on a mask, or listen to Fauci and Biden, with the Spanish Freaking Flu, WWI, the horrors of trench warfare, the worst western world economic disaster imaginagle+the Great Depression. It's ludicrous. So crazy to think about.

If I were you I would not hesitate to get Canadian citizenship now before they really tighten things up, other countries are tightening birthright citizenship as-well. This will benefit your son later if he chooses to do the same.

[Zonkerbl]

Now for the Israel like over reaction. When the widespread murdering of liberals begins, it will be an opportunity to see which Dem politicos have the cojones to stand up and fight back

[dobrojim]

Since the news broke I've learned a lot more about Kirk, things that don't surprise me from the little
before yesterday that I did know.

My approach to someone like Kirk is that he needed to be loudly, factually and clearly called out for
his hateful racist, misogynistic, homophobic and transphobic (among other) beliefs and his public promotion in support
of those beliefs. His elevation by a cabal of rich extremists like Trump and Limbaugh made it possible for
him to achieve fame and fortune his views should, in a better world, have excluded him from. His assassination
/may/ have never happened if he had remained just another obscure, hateful bigot standing on a street corner
screaming and waving his arms around. Being publicly assassinated might be seen as validation by some.

(from AI bot) Key factors in his rise include:
Donald Trump Jr. and the Trump family: After initially having reservations about Donald Trump's 2016 campaign, Kirk became a fierce advocate. He grew close with Donald Trump Jr. and served as an aide to him, and the Trump family's support and public appearances at Turning Point USA events helped elevate Kirk's profile significantly.

Influential conservative financiers: After founding Turning Point USA in 2012, Kirk received backing from a network of wealthy conservative donors who helped finance his organization's growth. The support of these figures was crucial to Turning Point's expansion and Kirk's rising influence.
Rush Limbaugh: The late conservative radio host was a key early supporter, befriending Kirk and headlining his events. In 2019, Limbaugh donated $1 million to Turning Point USA, providing a major financial boost and high-profile validation.

Conservative media ecosystem: Kirk strategically used the conservative media landscape, becoming a regular on platforms like Fox News and building a popular podcast. This network provided him with a large and loyal audience, which he leveraged to promote his views and mobilize young conservatives.
The "MAGA Doctrine": Kirk embraced and promoted the populist conservatism associated with Donald Trump's movement. He effectively used this platform to engage with young voters and energize the base, which further increased his influence within the Republican Party.

(and raised his visibility).

https://www.splcenter.org/resources/reports/turning-point-usa-case-study-hard-right-2024/

Charlie Kirk’s TPUSA is a well-funded, hard-right organization with links to Southern Poverty Law Center-identified hard-right extremists and a tremendous amount of influence in conservative politics. While the group was previously dismissed by key figures within the Republican National Committee (RNC), Trump attended several TPUSA events across the country throughout 2024, and several of his nominees have ties to the organization. Turning Point Action, the group’s sister 501(c)(4) organization, led Trump’s 2024 campaign efforts in key battleground states and played a vital role in the election of far-right candidates in Arizona, while TPUSA participated on the advisory board of Project 2025, a blueprint to radically reshape the federal government.

(goes on from there) ...paints another picture of a large fortune facilitating negative societal outcomes.

I personally think demonstrating the intellectual and moral emptiness of his rantings, and for him eventually
to die quietly /and naturally/ and in obscurity would have a much better outcome for our country and the world.

[montestewart]

Zero shock regarding the responses here.

CCJ and Dob, yes, we probably disagree on most political issues, but thank you for saying what anyone with an empathetic heart would: no one deserved to be murdered like this.

But from the start, this thread has shown the nonexistent character and values of zonk, querdi, and the most overrated breakfast item in the world. This is a young man with two little babies, it makes you want to throw up seeing a pic of him being a father? Of course it does, he and his wife relished that gift and owned up to their responsibilities, not took the easy way out that you so "valiantly" support. Those little babies are probably looking for their daddy right now, wondering where he is. And you take joy in this. He sparked a movement to persuade people to get out and vote (even if they didn't have to show their ID to prove its really them, because somehow that's racist), and that helped Trump, and for that, you think he deserved to die? Wow, talk about disgusting and reprehensible. Hey Hilary, here's that basket you talked about.

Come on monte, you are a solid poster and mod, this disregard for any kind of humanity is going to go without any type of repercussion?

Guess I'll respond since you're calling me by name (CCJ knows my real name). I'm not reading these posts as open celebrations/encouragements of this or any other political assassination. I see observations of the political ironies attached to this particular political assassination of someone who has been extremely unpopular among a wide segment of the population.

A frequent tactic of power is to speak falsehood to or suppress truth in the interest of "taste." The concept of "too soon" may apply here, and I wouldn't express my own views about this shocking and sad event in such a manner, regardless of the passage of time. But these concepts, "taste," "too soon," etc. are quite subjective and malleable, and blowback against objectionable comments will itself certainly inspire further observation of political ironies. Reactions to the misfortunes of political figures often depend more on the political views of the reactors and the political figures than on any taste or passage of time concerns.

The posts I saw, objectionable as they might be to many, looked like legitimate observations attached to defensible frustration and not obviously tempered by taste or passage of time concerns, so I'm going with discourse over suppression. Please, everyone, try to keep in mind that this is no place to celebrate murder or assassination, and that many people are experiencing shock over this event.

[montestewart]

Don't watch that Charlie Kirk video.

Bumping this. Thanks AFM.