Official Trade Thread - Part XXX

[LyricalRico]

Gortat's age and how much Beal will likely be overpaid are important factors as part of that trade.

Not a Cousins fan, but I'd rather take a chance on him than max out Beal.

[TheSecretWeapon]

I totally understand the age/value argument for swapping Gortat for Cousins. Worth mention is that Gortat is having a better season than Cousins. Gortat is more efficient offensively, is rebounding about the same (a little ahead, actually), fouls less, and commits half as many turnovers. Cousins gets more assists and steals, blocks fewer shots, and commits more fouls. Their defensive impacts are pretty comparable. Cousins "produces" 19+ zero-point possessions per 100 team possessions; Gortat produces 9.

Given the six-year age difference, Cousins still rates as the more valuable player in my trade value doohickey, but not by a lot. Cousins is kinda the big man version of Wall. His reputation and potential exceeds his actual on-court performance.

[fishercob]

I totally understand the age/value argument for swapping Gortat for Cousins. Worth mention is that Gortat is having a better season than Cousins. Gortat is more efficient offensively, is rebounding about the same (a little ahead, actually), fouls less, and commits half as many turnovers. Cousins gets more assists and steals, blocks fewer shots, and commits more fouls. Their defensive impacts are pretty comparable. Cousins "produces" 19+ zero-point possessions per 100 team possessions; Gortat produces 9.

Given the six-year age difference, Cousins still rates as the more valuable player in my trade value doohickey, but not by a lot. Cousins is kinda the big man version of Wall. His reputation and potential exceeds his actual on-court performance.

I don't question that any of this is true, per se. Do you subscribe to the notion that Cousins is a less productive player than he would otherwise be due to the amount of dysfunction he's dealt with in Sacramento. Granted, he's probably responsible for some of that dysfunction. But do you think he could be a significantly better player if he was in a more stable environment?

[deneem4]

I totally understand the age/value argument for swapping Gortat for Cousins. Worth mention is that Gortat is having a better season than Cousins. Gortat is more efficient offensively, is rebounding about the same (a little ahead, actually), fouls less, and commits half as many turnovers. Cousins gets more assists and steals, blocks fewer shots, and commits more fouls. Their defensive impacts are pretty comparable. Cousins "produces" 19+ zero-point possessions per 100 team possessions; Gortat produces 9.

Given the six-year age difference, Cousins still rates as the more valuable player in my trade value doohickey, but not by a lot. Cousins is kinda the big man version of Wall. His reputation and potential exceeds his actual on-court performance.

LOL are you serious?...
Did you say gortat is having a better season than Cousins?
This is exactly how I envision EG trying to make trades..

[pcbothwel]

I totally understand the age/value argument for swapping Gortat for Cousins. Worth mention is that Gortat is having a better season than Cousins. Gortat is more efficient offensively, is rebounding about the same (a little ahead, actually), fouls less, and commits half as many turnovers. Cousins gets more assists and steals, blocks fewer shots, and commits more fouls. Their defensive impacts are pretty comparable. Cousins "produces" 19+ zero-point possessions per 100 team possessions; Gortat produces 9.

Given the six-year age difference, Cousins still rates as the more valuable player in my trade value doohickey, but not by a lot. Cousins is kinda the big man version of Wall. His reputation and potential exceeds his actual on-court performance.

LOL are you serious?...
Did you say gortat is having a better season than Cousins?
This is exactly how I envision EG trying to make trades..

Yes...Yes he is. And he would be correct.

[TheSecretWeapon]

I totally understand the age/value argument for swapping Gortat for Cousins. Worth mention is that Gortat is having a better season than Cousins. Gortat is more efficient offensively, is rebounding about the same (a little ahead, actually), fouls less, and commits half as many turnovers. Cousins gets more assists and steals, blocks fewer shots, and commits more fouls. Their defensive impacts are pretty comparable. Cousins "produces" 19+ zero-point possessions per 100 team possessions; Gortat produces 9.

Given the six-year age difference, Cousins still rates as the more valuable player in my trade value doohickey, but not by a lot. Cousins is kinda the big man version of Wall. His reputation and potential exceeds his actual on-court performance.

LOL are you serious?...
Did you say gortat is having a better season than Cousins?
This is exactly how I envision EG trying to make trades..

That this makes you lol is further evidence that it's correct.

[TheSecretWeapon]

I totally understand the age/value argument for swapping Gortat for Cousins. Worth mention is that Gortat is having a better season than Cousins. Gortat is more efficient offensively, is rebounding about the same (a little ahead, actually), fouls less, and commits half as many turnovers. Cousins gets more assists and steals, blocks fewer shots, and commits more fouls. Their defensive impacts are pretty comparable. Cousins "produces" 19+ zero-point possessions per 100 team possessions; Gortat produces 9.

Given the six-year age difference, Cousins still rates as the more valuable player in my trade value doohickey, but not by a lot. Cousins is kinda the big man version of Wall. His reputation and potential exceeds his actual on-court performance.

I don't question that any of this is true, per se. Do you subscribe to the notion that Cousins is a less productive player than he would otherwise be due to the amount of dysfunction he's dealt with in Sacramento. Granted, he's probably responsible for some of that dysfunction. But do you think he could be a significantly better player if he was in a more stable environment?

That's possible. We all recognize Cousins' abilities, right? This is a guy who would seem to have the skills and capabilities to totally dominate the league. And yet...his offensive efficiency is below average.

For a guy with his abilities, we'd expect him to an exceptional finisher at the rim, but he has the same at-rim FG% this season as Jameer Nelson. Among players this season with at least 250 at-rim attempts, Cousins ranks 44th. Gortat ranks 11th.

Well, but Cousins has shooting range, right? Among the 163 players with at least 100 2pt attempts from 10+ feet, Cousins ranks 150th. Gortat, who's NOT reputed to have a good shot from longer range ranks 96th in accuracy. Perhaps recognizing his own limitations, Gortat doesn't try as many long jumpers -- only about 4% of his FGA come from 16+ feet.

Among the 148 players with at least 250 attempts from 10+ feet, Cousins ranks 124th in efg.

Turnovers? Cousins commits the fifth most per 100 team possessions in the league. The players with similar turnover numbers are guards.

So, the question with Cousins would would a stable environment help him reduce turnovers and take fewer bad shots? The reason used to be that his PGs were incompetent (although it's worth pointing out that Isaiah Thomas used to be his teammate). This year, Rajon Rondo (leading the league in assists per 100 team possessions) is running PG. And, his big man teammates (Koufos and Cauley-Stein) have been efficient, albeit on much lower usage and fewer minutes.

It's possible he'll play differently in a different environment. So far, however he hasn't seemed to change much as teammates and coaches have come and gone. He's mostly played the same game with similar results.

[tontoz]

No thanks on Cousins. Aside from being a headcase I just don't think he is that good.

[AFM]

Cousins is less efficient, but it probably has to do with his green light to shoot everything. I mean he's averaging 28 and 12.

[Ruzious]

And remember, Sac is using him more as a PF this season - which I don't think helps him at all. They added 2 7 footers in Koufas and WCS. So, while most teams are going small ball, Sac went the other way. They've never had an adequate backcourt with Cousins there. The best guard they've had was Thomas, and they made no effort to keep him when he became a free agent.

[pcbothwel]

^^^ Its always the question for different players... Can an inefficient, high usage player become more efficient with a better team/lower usage? And can a highly efficient, low usage player maintain his efficiency with increased usage?

Im sure TSW could shoot out some data points on this, but I think it comes down to that players specific skill set and mindset. That's why I have faith in Wall. He thrives with better "Alpha" talent around him as he can play QB and simply get the ball to his play-makers in a position that they can succeed.

I think if you had a legit scorer and someone who could initiate the offense you would see John shoot less long two's and stick to about 15-16 shots a game (4 of which would be 3PA). His 3PA would be catch and shoot, while his two's would be from drives to the basket or the pick and roll that leaves him wide open from 16ft. No more one-on-one crap.

That is why i think Satoransky (Ball handler to initiate the offense) would be a solid piece.

[payitforward]

How do you know Wall "thrives with better 'Alpha' talent around him?" All we know about Wall (or about any player) is what he is actually doing right where he is (and where he's been).

Forgive me, but "I think this... and I think that... if only some other thing..." etc. just has *zero* grip on anything actual.

Add to that having an "I think... would be a solid piece" about a guy whom we don't even know can play in the NBA *at all*, and we're just in someone's dream world where a variety of unknowns all come together to shoot the moon.

[payitforward]

LOL are you serious?...
Did you say gortat is having a better season than Cousins?
This is exactly how I envision EG trying to make trades..

deneem, when you say some guy "is good," I think what you mean is that guy "scores a lot of points." The other day, to prove Markieff Morris is a stud, you wrote "he's going to have a 25 point game one day soon," as if that would mean he was a good player.

There are @ 58 guys playing C in the NBA. Of all those guys, you know who scores the most points? DeMarcus Cousins! I think, to you, that must mean he's the best -- or at least one of the very very best.

Thing is, of all those 58 guys, you know how many have a higher Total Shooting % than DeMarcus Cousins? 45 of them.

So... here we have a guy who scores a ton of points on an exceptionally low TS% for his position. Can't deny that, can you? And, is that what you want? Is that what leads to lots of wins? I don't think so.

Oh, btw, TS% doesn't factor in turnovers of course. Aside from missing lots of shots when he goes into his dribble around 'n shoot a jumper offensive dance, Cousins also turns it over lots of times -- more than any other Center in the league. *LOTS* more than any other Center in the league.

DeMarcus Cousins is an exceptionally *talented* guy. But he doesn't translate his talent into results for his team. Talented player, but not all that good a player -- certainly not nearly as good as he should be.

I would have taken Cousins over Wall in 2010 -- I thought he'd be great, a great NBA player. I would have been wrong, however. Because he isn't.

[TheSecretWeapon]

^^^ Its always the question for different players... Can an inefficient, high usage player become more efficient with a better team/lower usage? And can a highly efficient, low usage player maintain his efficiency with increased usage?

Im sure TSW could shoot out some data points on this, but I think it comes down to that players specific skill set and mindset. That's why I have faith in Wall. He thrives with better "Alpha" talent around him as he can play QB and simply get the ball to his play-makers in a position that they can succeed.

I think if you had a legit scorer and someone who could initiate the offense you would see John shoot less long two's and stick to about 15-16 shots a game (4 of which would be 3PA). His 3PA would be catch and shoot, while his two's would be from drives to the basket or the pick and roll that leaves him wide open from 16ft. No more one-on-one crap.

That is why i think Satoransky (Ball handler to initiate the offense) would be a solid piece.

There's been research into the tradeoffs between usage and efficiency. I have the rule-of-thumb on another computer. Cousins probably would be more efficient if he used fewer possessions -- at least if he cut back from his portfolio of badly used possessions. If I get time tomorrow, I'll see if I can calculate what his efficiency curve looks like -- both the theoretical (using average effect of reducing usage) and then the actual numbers using his game log. Might be interesting. There are players, however, persisted in using possessions badly throughout their careers. Iverson and Stackhouse come to mind immediately. Cousins could be one of those guys.

As for a pairing of Wall and Cousins...I'd hope for the best, but I am skeptical. Might be another thing worth looking up: what happens when players whose play is characterized by high FGA and high turnovers combine?

[pcbothwel]

How do you know Wall "thrives with better 'Alpha' talent around him?" All we know about Wall (or about any player) is what he is actually doing right where he is (and where he's been).

Exactly. And guys like Kyrie, Harden, and Westbrook want to make an iso move and score the game winning shot. That has been a short coming for Wall that we've all seen, but that is because his strength (And Joy) come from making great passes. Obviously he loves making big buckets as much as anybody, but you see the look on his face when he puts guys on ice skates and kicks it back out to a wide open Dudley who hits a 3... he eats it up. THATS HIS GAME.

What I am saying is that there are high usage players that come to points in their career where they have to take a reduced role because of age or the team acquiring better talent. Some players (Kyrie, Iverson, Kobe) have trouble finding there rhythm because thats not where their mindset is. Sure, they'll make a few unselfish passes here and there, but you can see in the way they play that they want the shot.

Other players (Lebron, Wall, CP3) thrive in that role because they feel comfortable playing as a QB/distributor who manipulates the D and makes decisions...not shots per se. Its not always good as we have given Wall grief about closing out games and LeBron caught a lot of crap for the same stuff earlier in his career.
But overall, Wall is the TYPE of player that would make sufficient jumps with a KD and healthy Beal

[deneem4]

LOL are you serious?...
Did you say gortat is having a better season than Cousins?
This is exactly how I envision EG trying to make trades..

deneem, when you say some guy "is good," I think what you mean is that guy "scores a lot of points." The other day, to prove Markieff Morris is a stud, you wrote "he's going to have a 25 point game one day soon," as if that would mean he was a good player.

There are @ 58 guys playing C in the NBA. Of all those guys, you know who scores the most points? DeMarcus Cousins! I think, to you, that must mean he's the best -- or at least one of the very very best.

Thing is, of all those 58 guys, you know how many have a higher Total Shooting % than DeMarcus Cousins? 45 of them.

So... here we have a guy who scores a ton of points on an exceptionally low TS% for his position. Can't deny that, can you? And, is that what you want? Is that what leads to lots of wins? I don't think so.

Oh, btw, TS% doesn't factor in turnovers of course. Aside from missing lots of shots when he goes into his dribble around 'n shoot a jumper offensive dance, Cousins also turns it over lots of times -- more than any other Center in the league. *LOTS* more than any other Center in the league.

DeMarcus Cousins is an exceptionally *talented* guy. But he doesn't translate his talent into results for his team. Talented player, but not all that good a player -- certainly not nearly as good as he should be.

I would have taken Cousins over Wall in 2010 -- I thought he'd be great, a great NBA player. I would have been wrong, however. Because he isn't.

But that's the thing... points win games not efficiency especially if you're surrounded by efficient players...
Gortat doesn't shoulder the load like cousins...no matter gortat'signed beautiful efficiency he can't give you 20 points a game for a season and sustain it...
It's a difference between being a 1st option and a 3rd or worse
Cousins isn't the smartest but he 2 tiers above gortat right now when you talk about the center position...remember with Gortat efficiency were still sitting outside the playoffs...and we won games without him...so no he's not having a better season considering his efficiency isn't winning us games
gortat is a role player...
cousins at worst is a perennial all star

Danilo Gallinari is more efficient with less turnovers than lebron...I guess hes a better player too?
Gortat incredible efficiency doesn't transfer into wins so it's invalid...Atleast use deandre jordan, but don't compare gortat to cousins jus for sake of argument...

Like seriously answer these questions as simply as possible for me.......

if you swap gortat with cousins, would the kings be better or worse?
Why? How much better/how much worse?

If you swap cousins with Gortat would the Wizards be better or worse?
Why? How much better/how much worse?

[TGW]

Deneem--the NBA is not NBA2K. There's a reason the Kings suck, despite Cousins giving you 20 points a game.

"Points win games"....put down the video games bud.

[Dark Faze]

Cousins' TS isn't that bad when you consider his huge usage. He's not a god tier player because of efficiency, but the number of players that can maintain a 54 TS% on 21 shots a game are really low. Much better to have that sort of player than a bunch of high efficiency Otto Porters who take a whole shot clock to get a decent a look or can't create a shot to save their lives. That's been our main problem--too much Wall dependency in terms of getting shots for others.

I'd easily take Cousins right now. Would make a trade of Beal and Gortat and a 1st for him and not even blink. That's two all-star players for roleplayer money under the new cap.

[Ruzious]

There are @ 58 guys playing C in the NBA. Of all those guys, you know who scores the most points? DeMarcus Cousins! I think, to you, that must mean he's the best -- or at least one of the very very best.

Thing is, of all those 58 guys, you know how many have a higher Total Shooting % than DeMarcus Cousins? 45 of them.

Again, Sacramento is using him more like a forward than a center. He's averaging 3.4 3 attempts per game - and making 34.9% of them. Problem is - Sac apparently wants him to be a jump shooter. But, it's important to point out that he averages 12.1 FTA's per 40 while Gortat averages 3.6.

[deneem4]

Deneem--the NBA is not NBA2K. There's a reason the Kings suck, despite Cousins giving you 20 points a game.

"Points win games"....put down the video games bud.

U can't win if u have less points than the other team ...regardless if u have 3-2 or 110-111...the most points win everytime, did u know that?
So points do win games...

Cousins can do what gortat does...gortat can't do what cousins does...
u ever had to hunt for dinner and cook it?
It's same as creating a look then scoring...
Gortat not a good hunter he needs Wall-Mart....
80% of his scoring is assisted on...
He cant create for himself, or for others...
He isn't a winning option...or his efficiency would be translated to win...he isn't a consistent option because his productivity is mostly assist based usually with a nice running start to finesse a layup....he cant get that every play...

We should trade wall for Shaun Livingston...he's having a way better season than wall...better assists less turnovers top 10 ts%....

ITs not about scoring the most points its about being efficient that's why we're winning with Gortat 12ppg and ultra efficiency. ..