2020 Draft

[Ruzious]

Why is it that people think I'm talking to them when I don't quote them?

What the hell, why did you say that - I am putting you on ignore.

That's it! I'm putting everyone on ignore -- including myself. Starting with myself in fact!

Don't be like dckingsfan and fly off the handle like that at every little thing. He really needs to control himself. It's up to us chill boomers to serve as examples for him.

[Dat2U]

So it "seems" the board would generally be good with either Vassell or Okongwu. It "seems" like one of the two will be there at 9.

No, not me.... I don't want to draft Devin Vassell @ #9. I want to trade down.

Okongwu, yes.

Okongwu or Haliburton at 9 otherwise trade down a bit and get the best shooter in the draft in Nesmith.

[payitforward]

So it "seems" the board would generally be good with either Vassell or Okongwu. It "seems" like one of the two will be there at 9.

No, not me.... I don't want to draft Devin Vassell @ #9. I want to trade down.

Okongwu, yes.

Did you already say who would have to be at 9 to keep you from wanting to trade down? Asking for a friend.

Okongwu looks like a special kind of player. I'd find it hard to pass on him if he were there. Haliburton too would give me pause.

Of course, if one of the guys typically being mocked in the top 5-6 slid for some reason, that too would need to be considered -- or, for that matter, maybe it would lead to richer offers from teams that wanted the guy.

Otherwise, I would prefer to trade down. Obviously, that depends on a partner & an appropriate deal. The most obvious partner is Boston, as they have 3 R1 picks (& a R2 pick) -- hard to imagine they want that many guys. Ideally, I would give them our #9 & #37 for their #14, #26 & #47.

It's hard to find another appropriate trade-down partner this year. I can imagine trading our #9 for the Sixers #21, #34, & their 2021 R1 pick (especially since I think they're going to be worse next season, which means a higher pick). But that's off the top of my head.

[nate33]

I kinda like the guys we're looking at: Okongwu, Halliburton and Vassell, better than the guys at the top of the draft: Ball, Edwards, Wiseman.

[payitforward]

So it "seems" the board would generally be good with either Vassell or Okongwu. It "seems" like one of the two will be there at 9.

No, not me.... I don't want to draft Devin Vassell @ #9. I want to trade down.

Okongwu, yes.

Okongwu or Haliburton at 9 otherwise trade down a bit and get the best shooter in the draft in Nesmith.

Yes. If we did get 14, 26 & 47 for our 9 & 37, then Nesmith would be a natural choice at #14. #

26 might be between Tillman & Tyler Bey.
47 might bring us Malachi Flynn (a man can dream...) or... Nate Hinton
Then sign Nathan Knight!!

[payitforward]

I kinda like the guys we're looking at: Okongwu, Halliburton and Vassell, better than the guys at the top of the draft: Ball, Edwards, Wiseman.

It's an interesting draft that way, isn't it? Theoretically, value for pick position should remain constant. Personally, I don't think that's true very often, but this year it really seems radical; value for pick position seems to get better & better as you head down the pick positions (up to a point, obviously).

[doclinkin]

I kinda like the guys we're looking at: Okongwu, Halliburton and Vassell, better than the guys at the top of the draft: Ball, Edwards, Wiseman.

That's where I am too. Wiseman gives me pause because he is a load. An awe inspiring combination of athleticism and length. Like kaiju monstrosity raw talent. 'Raw' though suggests a ways to go.

John Wall would make him look really good on offense.

but

Pump fakes and back door passes will make him look bad on defense. Still that is all rookies. Still and again, centers need more skill nowadays than just being long and bouncy. BUT STILL AND STILL With training he could be a real problem for opponents on defense.

If he fell to 9, I'd wonder why. Did he interview poorly? Is he a slow learner? Is there something off-color in his background? But if he fell to 9 I'd have to take him. Then invest in a big man tutor. Big man staff. Like one for each Big on our roster.

And honestly if a team above us was sniffing around on a trade down and Okongwu was off the board, I'd talk about it.

Watch on YouTube

[payitforward]

Absolutely!

[doclinkin]

Its a moot point though, since he has been out of school based on NCAA asshattery and has had nothing to do but train his strength skill and prepare for the draft. His measurements and combine info are going to likely initiate something of a bidding war, and he won't fall.

[doclinkin]

It's been way too long since the draft talk and offseason started. At this point I can talk myself into or out of any player. There are players in the 2nd round of mocks that I swear will be 1st round talents. Waiting on new information from the stretched out combine, so I can totally reevaluate everything and then change my mind 4 more times. Sigh.

[payitforward]

Isn't it weird, doc? & there are still almost 2 months to go... if they don't put it off again, that is.

edit: Above all, seems to me, you have to feel for these kids. Has to be a really anxious situation for them.

[Dat2U]

I kinda like the guys we're looking at: Okongwu, Halliburton and Vassell, better than the guys at the top of the draft: Ball, Edwards, Wiseman.

That's where I am too. Wiseman gives me pause because he is a load. An awe inspiring combination of athleticism and length. Like kaiju monstrosity raw talent. 'Raw' though suggests a ways to go.

John Wall would make him look really good on offense.

but

Pump fakes and back door passes will make him look bad on defense. Still that is all rookies. Still and again, centers need more skill nowadays than just being long and bouncy. BUT STILL AND STILL With training he could be a real problem for opponents on defense.

If he fell to 9, I'd wonder why. Did he interview poorly? Is he a slow learner? Is there something off-color in his background? But if he fell to 9 I'd have to take him. Then invest in a big man tutor. Big man staff. Like one for each Big on our roster.

And honestly if a team above us was sniffing around on a trade down and Okongwu was off the board, I'd talk about it.

Watch on YouTube

I'm high on Okongwu. We actually are very similar. In numerology we share the same life path & energy (7/11). So he's very smart, very self aware (the 7) and athletic (11). He's a high character guy and a leader (11). I see little chance that he doesnt have at leasf a solid NBA career although there's a decent risk of injury at some point (7).

I absolutely love LaMelo Ball though and think he is clearly the best player in the draft by a decent margin. The combo of length, athleticism and skill is unique. He's the only guy I see capable of breaking down defenses at will and creating for himself and others at high-level. He rebounds really well. I think he'll be the closest thing to Westbrook in terms of amassing triple doubles. What confirms it for me is the numerology aspect as he's 33 LP which considered a master number plus 22 energy (born a 22 day) which indicates builder qualities (also a master number). Basically he's uber smart, a trailblazer and a can be someone the franchise builds around. The shot needs work but thats the only issue I have with him.

I'm with you on Wiseman. The talent is so tempting but the numerology aspect on him I don't love. He's very much along the lines of Mitchell Robinson & Andre Drummond. I'm sure he'll be productive just like they are but I question what his real impact willbe if he's not a great defender.

Vassell as I mentioned previously, just screams role playing wing off the bench. Maybe Josh Childress is the upside? Meh.

Anthony Edwards may be the most athletic 2-guard I've seen in years and a great frame to go with it. But the decision making/IQ are very much like Dion Waiters and Nick Young. So where he goes will be of the highest importance. With SA, Bos or Mia - Edwards could be special with right coaching. If not, he'll have some moments but I would expect coaches/teammates to be frustrated with his on-court decisions.

[doclinkin]

Isn't it weird, doc? & there are still almost 2 months to go... if they don't put it off again, that is.

Right? But it's not bad. It's pretty interesting. You get time to do a deep dive into various players and understand them better. Like:

Isaac Okoro. Many mocks I see, all the guys we have talked about are gone and this is the player we end up with by default. Worth a look, to come away with this conclusion: In a year where we weren't picking 9th if he fell to our team you'd be proud as hell to get this cat. Tough hard working fierce competitor. A basketball lifer, with a will to work. He grew up around Jaylen Brown and patterned his game after him. A defensive playmaker, scrappy, diving for balls, cutting off angles, reading both teams, playing the space between players as well as his man. HIs outside shot was a hole in his game but he had begun to figure it out the last 5-10 games or so. He plays hard at both ends, dunking ferociously, cutting decisively and with purpose, fighting through screens. Here is a player you will never have to worry about living up to his potential. He will add to his game because he breathes and sweats the game. Serious of purpose, settled, smart, win-oriented. He's the sort of player who would love a tough coach, a nuts and bolts and X's and O's Rick Carlisle type who is a stickler for detail on both ends. He's got the seriousness of a guy like former Philly guard Eric Snow. A player who will use all of his toughness and guile to succeed. Add that mindset on a guy who attacks the rim with the force of a cannonball. And attacks on defense the same way. Whatever position he is drafted, the team that gets him will be happy and he will instantly become a fan favorite. Easy to root for this kid.

I like watching Mike Schmitz' detailed film room sessions with potential draftees. He gets deep into the detail, and you can see which players truly enjoy and think about the game.

Watch on YouTube

[pcbothwel]

I kinda like the guys we're looking at: Okongwu, Halliburton and Vassell, better than the guys at the top of the draft: Ball, Edwards, Wiseman.

It's an interesting draft that way, isn't it? Theoretically, value for pick position should remain constant. Personally, I don't think that's true very often, but this year it really seems radical; value for pick position seems to get better & better as you head down the pick positions (up to a point, obviously).

Agreed... there are plenty of reasons for this, but I think the most obvious one is archetype. I was talking to a friend of mine about a year ago who did some scouting and he said, "Unless the player is a generational talent that changes the way the game is played, prospects are bucketed into archetypes. And if that archetype doesnt exist or has shown high failure rates... warning signs are noted."

The easiest archetype is starts with with defense. Can you defend multiple positions well, or one position at an elite level?
The 2nd is off-ball. Can you score points without having plays drawn up/ball pounding? Do you garner ORBs and easy buckets?
Its clear the the players in the 8-15 range settle perfectly into this. Okongwu, Vassell, Haliburton, Okoro, Achuiwa, Nesmith

OTOH, the hardest archetype is the ball centric guard with poor/questionable defense. Because unless you are Harden, Curry, Kyrie, Gil, etc. you become stuck in no mans land of not good enough to lead a team, but unable to fill any other role. See DLO & Lavine.

And even those Elite players I mentioned have a major issue, which is, even with their production does their play style mitigate that of their teammates due to ball watching(Harden?)? Do they get frustrated and "Low energy" over the course of a year by standing around the 3 point line?

Ball, Edwards, Killian Hayes... None of them project to be good defenders, none of them move well without the ball, and none show to be proficient off the C&S. So if they become some high usage lead guard with a 54% TS and bad defense... they go from Lotto pick with All-Star ceiling to 6th man/ out of the league REAL quick. Fultz, Monk, DSJ, Brandon Jennings, Mudiay, Exum, Waiters, Rivers, etc.

My question in the draft is, what Jr/Sr. PG ends up the Brunson, Milton, Graham, Brogdan 2nd round pick?
Winston, Flynn, Riller, and Pritchard look to be the guys to keep an eye on.

[Ruzious]

So it "seems" the board would generally be good with either Vassell or Okongwu. It "seems" like one of the two will be there at 9.

No, not me.... I don't want to draft Devin Vassell @ #9. I want to trade down.

Okongwu, yes.

Okongwu or Haliburton at 9 otherwise trade down a bit and get the best shooter in the draft in Nesmith.

Or trade down a bit lower for Bane - who I think could end up an even better shooter with deeper range than Nesmith.

Watch on YouTube

[Ruzious]

Its a moot point though, since he has been out of school based on NCAA asshattery and has had nothing to do but train his strength skill and prepare for the draft. His measurements and combine info are going to likely initiate something of a bidding war, and he won't fall.

My thinking on Wiseman is - if he's not the 1st pick, GS will take the highest bid for the 2nd pick - which will be used on Wiseman. If GS gets a top 8 pick in that trade, they look to use it on Okongwu - because they'd rather have Okongwu in their system than Wiseman. So hopefully GS doesn't trade for a top 8 pick.

[DCZards]

Giannis Antetokounmpo
Bam Adebayo
Onyeka Okongwu
Precious Achiuwa
Isaac Okoro

They are all Nigerians. (Bam's father is Nigerian and his mother is African American.) As, of course, was Akeem Olajuwon.

Speaking of Nigerians, there's a PG in this draft class from Illinois--Ayo Dosunmu. He's got good size (6-5) and length, and is an outstanding defender and fierce competitor. On offense, he's particularly good in transition.

Unfortunately, Ayo's outside shooting, especially his 3 pt. shooting, is well below average.

Dosunmu is likely to go undrafted. I'd like to see the Zards bring Ayo to camp and take a look at him.

Watch on YouTube

[doclinkin]

Consider Abdoulaye N'Doye as well with a late pick. 6'7" PG playing pro ball, born in France. Similarly more advanced on defense than offense, but a playmaking tall guard, with a floater. Tested the waters last year then went back to Cholet and added a 3fg to his skill set.

[nate33]

OTOH, the hardest archetype is the ball centric guard with poor/questionable defense. Because unless you are Harden, Curry, Kyrie, Gil, etc. you become stuck in no mans land of not good enough to lead a team, but unable to fill any other role. See DLO & Lavine.

And even those Elite players I mentioned have a major issue, which is, even with their production does their play style mitigate that of their teammates due to ball watching(Harden?)? Do they get frustrated and "Low energy" over the course of a year by standing around the 3 point line?

Ball, Edwards, Killian Hayes... None of them project to be good defenders, none of them move well without the ball, and none show to be proficient off the C&S. So if they become some high usage lead guard with a 54% TS and bad defense... they go from Lotto pick with All-Star ceiling to 6th man/ out of the league REAL quick. Fultz, Monk, DSJ, Brandon Jennings, Mudiay, Exum, Waiters, Rivers, etc.

Great stuff here, pcbothwel.

And then factor that we already have one of those rare lead guard archetypes who can actually manage a heavy offensive load with good efficiency, making us that much less in need of another one.

[doclinkin]

While I'm making the case for players we have dismissed and rated low. Obi Toppin is fun, man. We discuss how he may be redundant if we are trying to develop Hachimura, but come on. He's what we want Hachimura to develop into: decisive assertive athletic, attacking the rim and hitting shots with range. If efficient offense has been turned into a god by the Darryl Moreys of the league, Obi Toppin is a paladin of that church. He pretty much only hits dunks and outside shots. He's shown a little bit of touch, a bank shot or floater or two. But primarily feasts with the two shots we wish Rui had in his repertoire.

As for the empty stats argument. I dunno how one can really say that when Dayton only lost 2 games this year, both in overtime. Playing in a dynamic offense that had him as a small ball center, he has seen pretty much every type of play he would have to run at the next level. Granted (ha!) Coach Anthony Grant worked as an assistant to Billy Donovan on the Thunder, and brought many of the offensive innovations to Dayton, running many pro sets at a high level despite lesser talent. But it means a guy like Toppin has a jump start on running (literally) in a pro style offense. And succeeding in it. And okay, well, do you want him not to post those stats? He regularly snatches double digit rebounds, and has shown heads up passing that led to a few games of 4-6 assists.

Could his defense be better? Sure. No doubt. The NBA has a learning curve on D and he will be behind the curve to start. But he gives good effort on the things he was asked to do, filling space, blocking shots, rebounding, etc. And clearly has a good understanding of the game in terms of spacing and cuts etc on offense. It seems to me not too much of a stretch for him to learn solid defensive principles at the pro level and use the talents he does have. He already says he emulates Anthony Davis' game.

As for measurables etc, he's going to look shorter than he might, since his shoulders start at his earlobes, but he already plays bigger than his height. And his reach is tall.

Whatever happens higher up in the draft, this is another player who, if he slips to the Wizards, would be fun to watch and cheer for. As for Hachimura, hell this is competition, we are a 20-some win team, we need upgrades and depth at all spots. If we give someone for Rui to battle and struggle against in practice, shouldn't that make both of them better? Force them each to learn to defend with more effort and fire?

I'm alright if he slips and we land him. He's offensively a Dean Oliver dream, efficiency-wise. 40% from outside and 70% inside the arc, and runs hard both ways. Any point guard would be happy to have that weapon to pad their assist stats. He hit 67% from the left corner in that Otto Porter pocket that John always hit, and he knows to fade to there when his guards are driving the lane. That will let him play oversized SF at times.

Watch on YouTube

I love how he likes watching his own highlights and compliments himself. Made me laugh. But he will also call out when he stepped out of bounds and it wasn't called, etc. Or at about 22:00 or so when he starts breaking down what he did wrong defensively, he shows a high level of understanding on what he can do to improve at that end.

Honestly watching this video I could see Toppin being a trade down target for Golden State. His offball motion is advanced.