Political Roundtable Part XXXIII

[Benjammin]

Thomas Chatterton WIlliams: "I hope everyone heard Ezra Klein make such an important point today about the self-sabotaging dynamics of exclusivity and ostracism that have dominated left-leaning culture in recent years when he brought up Bernie Sanders's appearance on Joe Rogan:"

"But it wasn't always like that on Rogan's podcast. It wasn't that many years ago that Rogan had Bernie Sanders on for a friendly interview and then Rogan kinda sorta endorsed him. And you know what happened after that? Many liberals were furious at Bernie Sanders for going on Rogan in the first place. I was still on Twitter back then and I wrote about how of course Bernie Sanders was right to be there. That the fact that Sanders could attract people like Rogan was one of the very best arguments for his campaign. One of the reasons he might be able to beat someone like Donald Trump. This was 2020. If you wanted to beat Trump, of course you'd try to win over Rogan and his voters. But online liberals got so pissed at me for that it was briefly a trending topic on Twitter. Rogan was a transphobe, an Islamophobe, a sexist, the kind of person you wanted to marginalize, not the kind of person you wanted to talk to, but if these last years have proven anything, it's that you don't get to choose who is marginalized."---Ezra Klein

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[pancakes3]

I appreciate your response. I do understand the difference between explanations and excuses. Often, they are in the eye of the beholder. I have explanations and people I disagree with have excuses. Therapists will frequently ask clients some iteration of this question: "How is that working out for you?" So, how is seeing half the country as evil working out for you? In management there is an axiom that the system is perfectly designed for the results your are getting. If you are happy with the results, then just keep doing what you're doing.

yeah but in this instance it's not in the eye of the beholder. there is racism and this country that needs rectifying. that's the platform. it might be muddled by people making generalizations that ALL white people are racist and ALL men are misogynists but in terms of being happy with the results, minorities and women are not happy with the results.

as for billionaires, yeah, they don't deserve their money, not to the extent where they're able to accumulate billions. and people who are not billionaires are not happy with those results either.

and another thing, why is there so much apologizing and contextualizing by the right for Trump's remarks, but that critical thinking flies out the window when the left says "eat the rich" ?

[montestewart]

Maybe in Pennsylvania, but overall, I don't think so. Harris had a much harder job to do. She entered the game down three touchdowns. The Democratic Party needs to do some soul-searching rather than simply blame Biden or Harris. Or they can just say behind closed doors as at least one person in this thread has done that half of the country is evil, racist/sexist/transphobic/ and irredeemable.

Benjammin genuine questions for you. Can you agree that someone who is a convicted criminal, a rapist, conman and attempted a coup after losing the last election should never be President? Just ignore the name Trump. Can you at least agree on that?

Also why are you so dismissive that Trump voters are more racist/sexist and transphobic than let’s say Harris supporters? They are the ones who ran against DEI, claimed Kamala Harris slept her way to her position, they ran exclusively against trans kids in sports. Even if that’s not their only motivation, why is it hard to admit that this could be a motivator? I’m genuinely curious if you believe that these things don’t factor into Trump support.

I'm not being clear. I've voted against Trump three times. I would never vote for him. I wasn't saying that Trump supporters were that way but some in this thread have characterized them that way.

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

Trump's a huge d-bag and a con man, but refusal to engage with his supporters in any way (or merely dismissively) probably just cements his support and push it even further toward its extremely well armed extreme right. As I've said before in this thread, I know a lot of Trump supporters, family and friends, and they are something of a right wing rainbow coalition (with varying interests) that includes quite a few immigrants. Ignoring what it is about him that appeals to them and simplistically labeling it "HATE" seems like giving up to me, which is understandable in the immediate aftermath but doesn't seem like much of a long term path. Racists, sexists, and homophobes voted for Clinton, Obama, and Biden, and probably even Harris. Mere condemnation of the ones who voted for Trump is not likely to get them to reject Trumpism. Need a better plan, not more of the same.

[AFM]

well said monte

Honestly I think it would be a good idea for some of you to listen to Vance's appearances on any one of these podcasts he went on--I liked this one:

Watch on YouTube

Doubt it will change anyone's mind but maybe you'll stop thinking of half the country as evil

[AFM]

Or at least this clip

Watch on YouTube

[pancakes3]

vance is a disingenuous opportunist, and even if he personally is not an evil person, he is promulgating evil in the world for his own personal gain.

not everyone has to be literal hitler to be labeled as evil. it's a spectrum.

[Pointgod]

Van Jones gets it: “If progressives have a politics that says all white people are racist, all men are toxic, and all billionaires are evil it’s kinda hard to keep them on your side. If you're chasing people out of the party, you can't be mad when they leave.”

No one has run on a national platform of all white people are racist, all men are toxic and all billionaires are evil. He’ll feel free to point me to a state race that has even used that language, it doesn’t exist.

Republicans have called Harris a whore, low IQ, said she wasn’t even black, said Haitian immigrants were eating pets, called Puerto Rico an island of garbage, used Palestian as a slur and are running on language that says immigrants are poisoning the blood of the country. Trump called all Democrats evil and other Americans enemies.

All of these are examples of what was said as part of the campaign or from Trump himself. How is it that Republicans can say all of this wild **** and receive zero repercussions while Democrats have to apologize for **** they didn’t even run on? The wrong lessons are being learned all over again like 2016.

[closg00]

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[AFM]

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That's literally Jared Taylor. Do you know who that is?

[Pointgod]

Lmao wow it didn’t take long for leopards to start eating faces. Great work Trump supporters

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[AFM]

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[montestewart]

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That's literally Jared Taylor. Do you know who that is?

The Subway guy?

[AFM]

Read on Twitter

That's literally Jared Taylor. Do you know who that is?

The Subway guy?

Pretty much the same quality of person

[Benjammin]

Perhaps I should stop sharing these views of Democratic strategists, but for the moment here's another from Julie Roginsky:

"Now I'm going to speak some hard truths tonight. Friends in the Democratic Party, this is not Joe Biden's fault. This is not Barack Obama's fault. This is not Kamala Harris' fault. It is the fault of the Democratic Party not knowing how to communicate effectively to voters. We are not the party of common sense, which is the message the voters sent to us. For a number of reasons, we don't know how to speak to voters. When we address Latino voters, language has meaning, as Latinx, for instance, b/c that’s the politically correct thing to do, it makes them think we don’t even live in the same planet as they do. When we are too afraid to say that, hey, college kids, if you're trashing the campus of Columbia University b/c you’re unhappy about some sort of policy and you’re taking over a university and you’re trashing it and preventing other students from learning, that is unacceptable. But we’re so worried about alienating one or another cohort in our coalition that we do not know what to say when normal people look at that and say, wait a second. I send my kids to college so they can learn, not so they can burn buildings and trash lawns, right? And so on and so forth. When we put pronouns after names and say she/her as opposed to saying, you know what, if I call you by the wrong pronoun, call me out. I am sorry. I won't do it again. But stop with the virtue signaling and speak to people like they’re normal. There is nothing that I'm going to say to Shermichael that I’m not going to say to your or I’m not going to say to somebody else. I speak the same language to everybody. But that’s not what Democrats do. We constantly try to parse out different ways of speaking because our focus groups or polling shows that so-and-so appeals to such and such. That’s not how normal people think. It is not common sense and we need to start being the part of common sense again. Joe Biden is not responsible for that, neither is Kamala Harris. That is a problem that Democrats have had for years. I’ve been banging the drum on this for I don’t know how — probably ten years on this. We need to get back to being the party of common sense that people look at us and say we understand you. We appreciate what you say because you speak our language. And, until we do that, we should stop blaming other people for our own mistakes.”

[pancakes3]

Lmao wow it didn’t take long for leopards to start eating faces. Great work Trump supporters

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this 100% did not happen. the gist of it might be true, and probably would have been helpful a month ago as an illustrative tool, but this should not be presented as reporting an actual event that happened.

[montestewart]

That's literally Jared Taylor. Do you know who that is?

The Subway guy?

Pretty much the same quality of person

If he's the "let them eat cake" looking fellow, I'm unfamiliar. I know that thinking represents a significant portion of Trump support. Trump's also getting support from conservative Asian, African, and South American immigrants who seem out of touch with that reality, as far as I have seen. Condescending to traditional mores and religious views immigrants bring with them isn't a very strong join-our-party appeal, and Trump campaign successfully used pro life and transgender with this demographic. Democratic party needs to do a better job connecting Trump's anti-immigration stance with the underpinnings that are in a large part pure white supremacy, which I think even a significant portion of white Trump supporters may not fully understand.

[montestewart]

Lmao wow it didn’t take long for leopards to start eating faces. Great work Trump supporters

Read on Twitter

this 100% did not happen. the gist of it might be true, and probably would have been helpful a month ago as an illustrative tool, but this should not be presented as reporting an actual event that happened.

Although now might be a good time to go device/appliance shopping before prices go up.

[AFM]

The Subway guy?

Pretty much the same quality of person

If he's the "let them eat cake" looking fellow, I'm unfamiliar. I know that thinking represents a significant portion of Trump support. Trump's also getting support from conservative Asian, African, and South American immigrants who seem out of touch with that reality, as far as I have seen. Condescending to traditional mores and religious views immigrants bring with them isn't a very strong join-our-party appeal, and Trump campaign successfully used pro life and transgender with this demographic. Democratic party needs to do a better job connecting Trump's anti-immigration stance with the underpinnings that are in a large part pure white supremacy, which I think even a significant portion of white Trump supporters may not fully understand.

He's probably the most outspoken white supremacist in America, and I don't mean that as a slur, he's openly a white supremacist and has dedicated his life to such.

Dems do this every 4 years where they make the GOP nominee disavow the leader of the KKK's endorsement. It's just goofy


I forget which comedian said "not all trump supporters are racist but all racists are trump supporters"

[pancakes3]

i've heard it attributed to alonzo bodden

[AFM]

well there's some truth to all humor otherwise it's not funny at all. a lot of trump supporters ARE trash. but most of them are regular people.

keep in mind one of the most searched terms on election day was "Did Joe Biden drop out of the election". Need I say more.