Political Roundtable - Part V

[barelyawake]

"In the end, I got my answer, it's ok if the person you voted for lied, but not ok if you didn't vote for that person.

R's will never hold Bush accountable.
D's will never hold Obama accountable."

No. Obama lied about closing Gitmo and that's not ok. He lied about rolling back the Patriot Act and that's not ok. The NSA stuff is not ok, and Congress should hold his feet to the fire there. And he totally screwed the website opening.

My point was that every politician lies on the campaign trail. Every, single one. So, by "holding him accountable" what do you mean? Allow the opposition to health reform to use this as a reason to talk down the ACA? Or just say, "Bad President. You shoulda explained better?" The outcome for those he lied to will be better for 90% or more (including me). And eventually it will lead to 100% having better/cheaper/better regulated health care (once we get a public option). So, what exactly do you want me to say?

Btw, only half the country knows that America is the country that dropped a nuke on Japan. So, please stop with the whole "Americans aren't ignorant about history and politics" thing. They are. So, not explaining every last nuance of a complex law seems to me not the same as lying us into a war (especially when the outcome is often better than what one lied about).

And actually, I would vote for certain libertarians and certain Green Party candidates.

And Meeka is as dumb as they come. She couldn't understand a complex political issue if she had a personal tutor and a gun to her head. Chris Hayes is very good at having on people to have real discussions.

[dobrojim]

speaking of history I came across a book I want to read last week at Poets and Busboys,
The Confederate and Neo-confederate reader. Browsed it a bit while we were waiting.
Learned something interesting...The south was NOT for "states rights". They actually wanted
federal intervention against the states that were helping slaves or interfering with the
capture and return of escaped slaves. They were mad that the Feds weren't coming down
on the States that were not helping the South return runaway slaves. It's right in the documents
that the succeeding states authored at the outbreak of the war.


from: A declaration of the causes which impel the State of Texas to secede from the Federal Union.

The controlling majority of the Federal Government, under various pretences and disguises, has so administered the same as to exclude the citizens of the Southern States, unless under odious and unconstitutional restrictions, from all the immense territory owned in common by all the States on the Pacific Ocean, for the avowed purpose of acquiring sufficient power in the common government to use it as a means of destroying the institutions of Texas and her sister slaveholding States.

By the disloyalty of the Northern States and their citizens and the imbecility of the Federal Government, infamous combinations of incendiaries and outlaws have been permitted in those States and the common territory of Kansas to trample upon the federal laws, to war upon the lives and property of Southern citizens in that territory, and finally, by violence and mob law, to usurp the possession of the same as exclusively the property of the Northern States.

Kinda sets history as commonly understood on its head.

PS America did not drop a nuke on Japan. It dropped 2. I guess you could
say it dropped one, and then it dropped another.

[Induveca]

May I ask why people follow the political gospel of biased, puppet string controlled television hosts?

I remember when television news wasn't live editorials. I could care less about ANY of these puppets opinions.

Watch Euronews or Al Jazeera English. They actually report news and have no tv "personalities" spouting off American political party rhetoric.

[noworriesinmd]

Al Jazeera English. They actually report news and have no tv "personalities" spouting off American political party rhetoric.

I agree, also I keep on hearing that Al Jazeera is trying VERY hard to be unbiased in their reporting.

[noworriesinmd]

And Meeka is as dumb as they come. She couldn't understand a complex political issue if she had a personal tutor and a gun to her head. Chris Hayes is very good at having on people to have real discussions.

I was not endorsing her and I rarely follow her. I just was using her to say that I'm not some fox news junky.
If you get a chance, check out Russell Brand's rant on MSNBC which is epic!

[pineappleheadindc]

May I ask why people follow the political gospel of biased, puppet string controlled television hosts?

I remember when television news wasn't live editorials. I could care less about ANY of these puppets opinions.

Watch Euronews or Al Jazeera English. They actually report news and have no tv "personalities" spouting off American political party rhetoric.

Concur with Indu. Al Jazeera English has really good news, IMO. I'm thankful it's on Fios. BBC World news on BBC America is pretty good too.

[dckingsfan]

May I ask why people follow the political gospel of biased, puppet string controlled television hosts?

I remember when television news wasn't live editorials. I could care less about ANY of these puppets opinions.

Watch Euronews or Al Jazeera English. They actually report news and have no tv "personalities" spouting off American political party rhetoric.

Al Jazeera English is pretty darn good. Pretty liberal which is funny because many think they are a conservative Islamic broadcast. I like BBC radio but it doesn't come on until midnight.

[dckingsfan]

May I ask why people follow the political gospel of biased, puppet string controlled television hosts?

I remember when television news wasn't live editorials. I could care less about ANY of these puppets opinions.

Watch Euronews or Al Jazeera English. They actually report news and have no tv "personalities" spouting off American political party rhetoric.

Concur with Indu. Al Jazeera English has really good news, IMO. I'm thankful it's on Fios. BBC World news on BBC America is pretty good too.

We must have been posting at the same time have you watched America Tonight with Joie Chen?

[pineappleheadindc]

Yup - I liked her back to her CNN days.

I like that it's not all about graphics, splash, and the stupid idea that a complex issue can be distilled into a 30 second sound-byte heavy report. Its sets, graphics, and news story lengths are trying to convey that you come to the broadcast to learn something.

They not disappointment too much since I've been watching.

[dckingsfan]

Agreed...

[hands11]

"And the ACA isn't a good system - it doesn't fix the inherent problems in the system listed before. And since you are using economists as your supporting argument, a vast majority of economists do not support the ACA because most of the costs will be burdened by the middle class which will slow down growth."

Thus why we need a public option.

Btw, I'm not a Democrat either. I'm an independent who has just never voted for a Republican (like every other "independent" on this board).

And yes, lying is bad. And so is fire. Fire bad. Love good. Crabs sometimes very good, sometimes very bad.

But sometime fire bad. Specially on the way out after some super hot chicken wings. That fire is really bad. As is the smoke.

I was one of the original independents because both the Dems and Rs blew back in the Reagan/Mondale and Bush vs Dukakis. Since then the Dems have gotten way better and the Rs way worse so I find is easy to vote Dem. So does that make me a Dem now ? Not sure I want to change my voter card but I have no problem saying I support the Dems. I would vote Dem or Independent depending on who the independent is. Hard to see myself ever voting for an Rs again, though I used to vote for them in house, senate seats before.

That party have simply left the reservation and all that is left is a talking point. I think they will simple defunct as a party though they could survive like Voldemort in HP1. Its not clear to me what will replace them though. I could see the Dems absorbing more moderate Rs as they occupy mid right, mid and middle left which is the vast majority of America. What might rise from there is a extreme left movement but I don't think they would have any more success then the extreme right that will spell the end of the Rs as a political player.

I think Dems are about to go on a generational run. Rs will only survive as governors and city/county government in their red districts until they slowly turn purple over time.

[dobrojim]

Really don't have much use for CNN. We'll have to leave it there.

BBC is solid.

[hands11]

I voted for a Republican once. It made me feel cheap and dirty. I loved it.

That's hilarious.

So NY and VA Major races tomorrow.

Any idea who is going to win ?

[W. Unseld]

The national journal leans rather left of center:
http://www.nationaljournal.com/white-ho ... a-20131105
"It might not seem possible that President Obama could do more harm to his credibility and the public's faith in government than misleading Americans about health insurance reform. But he can. The president is now misleading the public about his deception."
Washington Post fact-checker Glenn Kessler, gave Obama four Pinocchios for the you-can-keep-it whopper, repeated countless times by Obama. "The president's statements were sweeping and unequivocal—and made both before and after the bill became law," Kessler wrote.

*Edit--whatever the number of people turn out to be in the next few weeks or months who lose coverage, don't forget the employer mandate was delayed a year. I'm not going to argue with anyone but I'll take side bets on whether or not thousands more people lose their coverage.

[dckingsfan]

The national journal leans rather left of center:
http://www.nationaljournal.com/white-ho ... a-20131105
"It might not seem possible that President Obama could do more harm to his credibility and the public's faith in government than misleading Americans about health insurance reform. But he can. The president is now misleading the public about his deception."
Washington Post fact-checker Glenn Kessler, gave Obama four Pinocchios for the you-can-keep-it whopper, repeated countless times by Obama. "The president's statements were sweeping and unequivocal—and made both before and after the bill became law," Kessler wrote.

*Edit--whatever the number of people turn out to be in the next few weeks or months who lose coverage, don't forget the employer mandate was delayed a year. I'm not going to argue with anyone but I'll take side bets on whether or not thousands more people lose their coverage.

Sigh... I think the bigger problem - and not to say this is small - is that the ACA is letting everyone off the hook in terms of focusing on the economy. And if you want to fix most of the underlying problems, we need to grow our way out.

[Induveca]

Dckingsfsn, that has been my exact opinion on Obamacare from the beginning.

It's completely unneeded and harmful in an economy on the verge of collapse.

But if the destructive, yet utopian, idea attracts enough ignorant voters to the polls, the lying politician gets a major bump. As an added bonus it distracts enough people from the real issue.....in this case unprecedented fiduciary irresponsibility.

I grew up watching this brand of politics in the 3rd world. When the economy is doing well they praise their irrelevant contributions to private industry.....and happily accept as many bribes/lobbyists as possible to their desk.

Economy not doing well? They invent a sweeping "reform" of an industry "wronging the poor". Keeps them in office....and a chance to live another day.

Any active or former 3rd world president is laughing at the US educated population debating Obamacare and ignoring the real issue...the country is beyond broke.

"Our economy is so bad, the poor can't afford insurance. Oh no! So we're going to implement a "free insurance" policy to grab their attention and get them to the polls....they can't do the math regardless. Don't worry about the ones who can do the math, we'll just demonize them to the ones who can't."

"Brilliant! That way everyone will ignore the real issue!"

[Wizardspride]

No. Obama lied about closing Gitmo and that's not ok.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-576 ... anamo-bay/




Obama recommits to closing Guantanamo Bay




The White House says President Barack Obama has met with two special envoys for closing the Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, prison and recommitted to closing it.

Obama met Monday with State Department envoy Clifford Sloan and Pentagon envoy Paul Lewis. It's the first publicly announced meeting between Obama and the envoys.

Obama vowed to close the prison but has been thwarted by Congress. He announced in May he would appoint envoys and ordered the Pentagon to designate a site in the U.S. where detainee trials could be held.

"The Guantanamo facility continues to drain our resources and harm our standing in the world," White House press secretary Jay Carney said in a statement.

The White House says the administration will keep transferring detainees who are cleared to go to other countries. Obama wants Congress to remove restrictions on transfers.

[barelyawake]

Lol at healthcare reform being " unneeded." The country is going broke because of healthcare costs. How is the country to grow when the majority of the country (thus the majority of would be customers) don't have disposable income (in great deal because of healthcare costs)? And considering that Obama has introduced many job creation packages that Republicans won't allow to pass (considering they won't allow anything to pass), what do you expect him to do in regards to growth? Obama's plan for growth, if Democrats controlled the house, was:

A) Bring down healthcare costs so businesses have customers with disposable income.
B) Lower taxes so businesses have customers with disposable income.
C) Spend on infrastructure, so businesses will invest in America and business has more customers.
D) Spend on researching new tech to grow new industries.
E) Raise the minimum wage to provide new customers with disposable income.
F) Reform immigration to provide new tax payers and new customers with disposable income.
G) Small business tax cuts to allow growth.
H) Payroll tax cuts so businesses have more customers with disposable income.

Of those, lowering healthcare costs is the single greatest thing America can do to help the economy according to many economists. From the Gallup Business Journal:

"Few Americans realize the size of the problem. Healthcare costs America $2.5 trillion a year. That's a problem alone. Remember, at the same time, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have cost the U.S. about $200 billion a year. That's tiny compared to healthcare costs. You hear people say, "If we weren't involved in two wars, we could afford healthcare costs." No we couldn't. It wouldn't make much of a difference.

But here's the bigger point about healthcare: Defense spending totals $1 trillion a year, but we're winding it down. The problem with healthcare costs is that they're accelerating: They'll grow from $2.5 trillion to $4.5 trillion within 10 years because they're growing at about 6% a year. So if we can't get that fixed, organizations won't be lean enough to grow or to do other things they need to do, like export. Healthcare costs have become the biggest problem that companies have -- or cities, counties, states, and the federal government. Nobody can afford healthcare. This is the biggest barrier to job creation that America has."

So, give one a break about how healthcare reform is a made-up issue or runs counter to growth. What runs counter to growth is the lack of a public option.

[nate33]

barelyawake, it's true that health care costs must be reduced. The problem is that Obamacare won't do that. It's going to raise costs.

[barelyawake]

barelyawake, it's true that health care costs must be reduced. The problem is that Obamacare won't do that. It's going to raise costs.

A) If that is the case, that is because of the lack of a public option.
B) That is not the case.

But, Nate, the arguments above mine were that healthcare reform was a frivolous exercise which was unneeded and a waste of focus when what we need to focus on is growth. Indy said healthcare reform was a made-up issue like third world republics use to distract the public on fake issues that don't actually effect the economy. That stance is nonsense. Lowering healthcare costs is one of the, if not the single, greatest things we can do to spur growth.