Wizards Training Camp 2020-21

[prime1time]

And to build off that last point, it is going to be hard. Offense is improving significantly each year. I don’t even want a great defense I’d settle for a consistent 3-5 point differential.

[Ruzious]

Brooks particularly gushed when he said he could see Westbrook playing with 4 knockdown 3 point shooters. Presumably he meant Beal, Bertans, Bryant, and... I don't know. But it is clear that he wants Westbrook to play with 3 point shooters - so it's likely that most of Bertans' minutes will be with Westbrook on the floor.

There are only so many 3-point shooters to go around - particularly ones who can defend with any competency. If you put them all on the floor with Westbrook, then who is going to space the floor when Westbrook sits? You don't want a bench lineup of Ish, Brown, Bonga, Hachimura and Lopez with no respectable 3-point shooters.

Brooks gushing about Westbrook alongside 3-point shooters isn't necessarily an indication that he will start that kind of lineup. It's more about how that type of lineup in crunch time could wreak havoc.

I really don't think Bertans will start. I don't think he has the frame to be a full time power forward who bangs against the opposition's starter, and I think the team will be better off with a more defensive-minded small forward in the starting unit to guard the opposition's best wing since none of Westbrook, Beal or Bryant aren't known for their defense.

Bertans will still get 28 minutes a night and finish games. And I do like the idea of him sharing the court with Westbrook a lot. I think that can be accomplished by sitting Westbrook early and then bringing him back on the floor with the 2nd unit.

I still think the starting lineup will be Westbrook, Beal, Hachimura and Bryant. The small forward will probably be Bonga but possibly Avdija if his defense and 3-point shooting are better than expected, or Troy Brown if his defense has improved.

True, but the bench isn't completely separate from the starters. And Westbrook is going to play roughly 3 quarters of the minutes - as will Beal. There's not going to be more than a few minutes a game where we don't have one of the top 3 3-point shooters on the floor, and others are capable of making 3's, so I don't see the big deal.

[NatP4]

Troy Brown seems like the forgotten man.

In games in which Brown played over 30 minutes(22), he averaged 15.8 points 7.6 rebounds 3.4 assists on .552 TS%

I don’t think any of us would complain about that production from the starting 3.

[nate33]

Troy Brown seems like the forgotten man.

It's going to be hard to find minutes for everyone. Brown just needs to play so well that Brooks can't take him off the floor.

It's really going to come down to his defense. Our team really needs more defense and as long as Bonga defends significantly better than Brown, he's probably going to get more minutes. It doesn't matter that Brown is better than Bonga at most other things, we just don't need those other things from our wings as much as we need defense.

Either that, or Brown needs to become good enough as a PG that he can displace Ish or Neto. I don't see that happening. Brown is a very capable ball handler who can run a secondary pick-and-roll, but he doesn't have enough wiggle to his game to bend a defense and get them scrambling. Maybe he'll get there one day, but probably not. Outside of Bradley Beal, I can't think of many players who have developed their game as a primary ball handler well enough to make the jump from role player to primary option at the point of attack.

[dckingsfan]

Troy Brown seems like the forgotten man.

It's going to be hard to find minutes for everyone. Brown just needs to play so well that Brooks can't take him off the floor.

It's really going to come down to his defense. Our team really needs more defense and as long as Bonga defends significantly better than Brown, he's probably going to get more minutes. It doesn't matter that Brown is better than Bonga at most other things, we just don't need those other things from our wings as much as we need defense.

Either that, or Brown needs to become good enough as a PG that he can displace Ish or Neto. I don't see that happening. Brown is a very capable ball handler who can run a secondary pick-and-roll, but he doesn't have enough wiggle to his game to bend a defense and get them scrambling. Maybe he'll get there one day, but probably not. Outside of Bradley Beal, I can't think of many players who have developed their game as a primary ball handler well enough to make the jump from role player to primary option at the point of attack.

Well, we will see a little bit in the preseason. But...

I think that Bonga (size) will start with Avdija coming off the bench (first round pick). We have a logjam at PG and Brooks will not play Brown there. So, back up minutes at SG but Brooks will want to split those minutes with Robinson. My call? 10 - 12 mpg until an injury.

Now, I could be wrong and Brown gets the backup minutes to Bonga as well, and then he is back to 25 mpg or so...

This takes us back to "fit". And why I would have been willing to trade Brown and Wagner for Bamba (of course Orlando would have needed to be open to that too ). But positionally, they had a need (and took Cole Anthony).

I would have hated to see Brown go but I would have preferred

Westbrook, Neto, Smith
Beal, Robinson, (Mathews)
Bonga, Avijda
Rui, Bertrans
Bamba, Bryant

(ducking for incoming)

[Ruzious]

Troy Brown seems like the forgotten man.

It's going to be hard to find minutes for everyone. Brown just needs to play so well that Brooks can't take him off the floor.

It's really going to come down to his defense. Our team really needs more defense and as long as Bonga defends significantly better than Brown, he's probably going to get more minutes. It doesn't matter that Brown is better than Bonga at most other things, we just don't need those other things from our wings as much as we need defense.

Either that, or Brown needs to become good enough as a PG that he can displace Ish or Neto. I don't see that happening. Brown is a very capable ball handler who can run a secondary pick-and-roll, but he doesn't have enough wiggle to his game to bend a defense and get them scrambling. Maybe he'll get there one day, but probably not. Outside of Bradley Beal, I can't think of many players who have developed their game as a primary ball handler well enough to make the jump from role player to primary option at the point of attack.

Well, we will see a little bit in the preseason. But...

I think that Bonga (size) will start with Avdija coming off the bench (first round pick). We have a logjam at PG and Brooks will not play Brown there. So, back up minutes at SG but Brooks will want to split those minutes with Robinson. My call? 10 - 12 mpg until an injury.

Now, I could be wrong and Brown gets the backup minutes to Bonga as well, and then he is back to 25 mpg or so...

This takes us back to "fit". And why I would have been willing to trade Brown and Wagner for Bamba (of course Orlando would have needed to be open to that too ). But positionally, they had a need (and took Cole Anthony).

I would have hated to see Brown go but I would have preferred

Westbrook, Neto, Smith
Beal, Robinson, (Mathews)
Bonga, Avijda
Rui, Bertrans
Bamba, Bryant

(ducking for incoming)

Interesting that Bamba still hasn't been cleared to practice - apparently still having after-effects from COVID-19 that he had in the bubble.

I would also like to do a 2 for 1 trade where we upgrade at a position.

[NatP4]

Feels to me like you can give quality minutes to 8 guys and players are now separated into 3 categories: guard, wing, big. Usually you have one of each coming off the bench as your 6,7,8th. I hope that Brown falls more into the guard category, I think that is his path to a more prominent defined role. Combo guard behind Westbrook and Beal. Bonga and Avdija kind of lock down the wing position, and the frontcourt is a rotation of Bertans/Rui/Bryant.

The problem is, I KNOW Brooks will overuse the other guys, like Lopez, Robinson, Ish.

[NatP4]

Sign me up for anything that moves Ish Smith, Jerome Robinson, and Mo Wagner.

[DCZards]

Don't sleep on JRob, folks. If he continues to improve his 3pt shooting (he shot .349% from 3 since joining the Zards) and his D is the best among the players competing for minutes at the backup 2 & 3 (which it is), he'll rightfully earn minutes.

[nate33]

I think that Bonga (size) will start with Avdija coming off the bench (first round pick). We have a logjam at PG and Brooks will not play Brown there. So, back up minutes at SG but Brooks will want to split those minutes with Robinson. My call? 10 - 12 mpg until an injury.

Now, I could be wrong and Brown gets the backup minutes to Bonga as well, and then he is back to 25 mpg or so...

This takes us back to "fit". And why I would have been willing to trade Brown and Wagner for Bamba (of course Orlando would have needed to be open to that too ). But positionally, they had a need (and took Cole Anthony).

I would have hated to see Brown go but I would have preferred

Westbrook, Neto, Smith
Beal, Robinson, (Mathews)
Bonga, Avijda
Rui, Bertrans
Bamba, Bryant

I buy this line of thinking. Brown, although a good player, may not have the skill set that fits well on this particular roster. If that's the case, then it could make sense to trade him - hopefully in a 2 for 1 where we trade two players for one better player, at a position of need.

I'm not sure if Bamba is the guy (I'm not saying he isn't, I'd have to do some more scouting), but it's the type of trade that could make sense. Another possibility is Jarrett Allen. Or maybe we trade him for a combo guard with a more 3&D skill set to better complement Westbrook and Beal - a guy like Halliburton would be ideal (though presumably Halliburton has too much value at the moment)

It's all a bit premature at the moment. I really like Brown and by all accounts he is a very hard worker. I'm looking forward to seeing how he looks early this year. He might just improve enough that he becomes indispensable. Also, it's possible that Brooks implements a more egalitarian read-and-react offense that doclinkin envisions, where our multiple decision makers (Westbrook, Beal, Ish, Brown, Avdija, even Bonga) share the ball, make reads and make plays.

[NatP4]

Don't sleep on JRob, folks. If he continues to improve his 3pt shooting (he shot .349% from 3 since joining the Zards) and his D is the best among the players competing for minutes at the backup 2 & 3 (which it is), he'll rightfully earn minutes.

His defense is better than Brown and Avdija? Not disagreeing, I just didn’t notice that last season. Didn't watch much of the bubble though.

[nate33]

Don't sleep on JRob, folks. If he continues to improve his 3pt shooting (he shot .349% from 3 since joining the Zards) and his D is the best among the players competing for minutes at the backup 2 & 3 (which it is), he'll rightfully earn minutes.

His defense is better than Brown and Avdija? Not disagreeing, I just didn’t notice that last season. Didn't watch much of the bubble though.

His on ball defense at the guard position is better than Brown. He doesn't have the size to be a switchable 1 through 4 defender like Avdija.

[doclinkin]

Russ -- attacks the rim always. When stopped he switches to an inefficient pull up jumper.
Beal -- range, ball handling attack, his efficiency drops if he doesn't have room to do both. Davis' numbers raised Brad's efficiency.
Deni -- moves the ball, plays solid team defense, makes smart cuts and passes. IF his 3pt shot has improved as suggested then he opens the floor even more. Still he is smart enough to see when to cut and provide a passing target if the drive is blocked. Euro experience serves him well here.
Bertans -- range allows both Russ and Beal room to operate on the attack. Brad driving against a single defender has been a source of free throw attempts, driving his scoring numbers up.
Bryant -- a pick and roll pick and pop threat for Russ to work with. Under Brooks Russ had far higher pick and roll numbers than in Houston where he was in their iso heavy game.

Westbrook has lead the league in assists so I think your narrative is selling him short. Rui shot high 30% from 3 after he came back from injury. I expect his attempts to go up, and if teams insist on leaving him to help I’m willing to live with him shooting that open 3. Also, if you hear Bryant tell it he was injured for most of the year and finally healthy in the bubble. In the bubble he shot enough 3’s at a good enough percentage to raise his 3-point percentage for the year to 40%. He said he’s put a lot of work on his 3’s so hopefully Coach Brooks will give him the green light. We can run some pick and roll, but I’ll be fine if we just turn Bryant into stretch 5. And play a 5 out offense. Hard to say precisely what this team will be, but it does have potential.

I don't think I'm saying what you think I'm saying. I'm saying if you want to win, you go with the best players at their position. You can mix and match and sprinkle other players in as necessary, but our best players to me seem to be the above. If you want to argue that Rui is better than Bertans, you'll have to show me why. I was making a case for the synergy of this line up, offensively. With this line up we can score with anyone, and outscore most.

Defensively, frankly, I don't think we have a line-up. The team didn't draft with that in mind and has not built the team with defense as a priority. We have some guys who can do some stuff. But when our best defensive line has Bonga and Robinson in the discussion, and Lopez I guess, well, we are missing more than a few elements. Troy Brown I suppose, who is a nice team defender but does get beat by more athletic players, he's no stopper nor intimidating. He rebounds well for his size. Neto who is a slight defensive upgrade from last years 3rd string PG.

So. We are hoping for defensive improvement from two factors: Russ snatches more rebounds, so we give up fewer 2nd chances. Whomever we already have will get better due to experience. Okay three factors: we are no longer playing a washed up former star on the perimeter.

Could we be better on defense? Sure, those are not insignificant factors. We have better depth too inasmuch as the guys we do have are more playable if they have improves. Also a year of continuity on a team that had massive roster turnover ought to help with team defense and understanding roles.

But our D is not what will win us games. The above line-up prevents Russ from defaulting to his least efficient shot, and gives him lethal kick-out options and players to reliably credit him with assists if teams load up to stop his interior attack.

Check his shot stats. He is prolific and dangerous at the rim, sub par if he settles for a jumper. If you are paying a guy 40 million dollars a year you want to maximize what he does well. He balled out when Houston went to a 5 out system. WIth a line that has Beal Bertans and Bryant next to Russ, we have 4 of 5 who are able to hit from long range. Whomever else we add to that mix ought to either be able to hit a ranged shot, or set smart picks and screens to wall off attack lanes for Russ or spring Beal/Bertans free for a jumper.

Rui, for whatever talents he has, does not yet read the floor and play the team game by instinct. Maybe playing alongside Russ will develop that skillset? IF so I can see the reasoning to get him seasoning with the starters. But it's not a strength. Yeah, if he starts hitting 3pt shots at a high rate then he is more playable, but his team game is not yet there, and his rebounding is subpar for a Big. Okay our future is higher if he gets good, so run with the starters may be key. And Deni being already more skilled may mean he does well with the 2nd line crew. But. If wins are what we are hunting, maximizing our starters skill set seems to be the way to go.

[payitforward]

Don't sleep on JRob, folks. If he continues to improve his 3pt shooting (he shot .349% from 3 since joining the Zards) and his D is the best among the players competing for minutes at the backup 2 & 3 (which it is), he'll rightfully earn minutes.

I'm glad you consistently weigh in on Jerome, Zards.

Despite the improved 3-pt. shooting, his offense production & efficiency still lag (74% of average number of points/40 minutes at a TS% of 51.6% vs average of 55.3%, not to mention below average on the rest of the box score numbers).

Until that improves it still has to be defense that gets him on the floor.

[nate33]

I don't think I'm saying what you think I'm saying. I'm saying if you want to win, you go with the best players at their position. You can mix and match and sprinkle other players in as necessary, but our best players to me seem to be the above. If you want to argue that Rui is better than Bertans, you'll have to show me why. I was making a case for the synergy of this line up, offensively. With this line up we can score with anyone, and outscore most.

Defensively, frankly, I don't think we have a line-up. The team didn't draft with that in mind and has not built the team with defense as a priority. We have some guys who can do some stuff. But when our best defensive line has Bonga and Robinson in the discussion, and Lopez I guess, well, we are missing more than a few elements. Troy Brown I suppose, who is a nice team defender but does get beat by more athletic players, he's no stopper nor intimidating. He rebounds well for his size. Neto who is a slight defensive upgrade from last years 3rd string PG.

So. We are hoping for defensive improvement from two factors: Russ snatches more rebounds, so we give up fewer 2nd chances. Whomever we already have will get better due to experience. Okay three factors: we are no longer playing a washed up former star on the perimeter.

Could we be better on defense? Sure, those are not insignificant factors. We have better depth too inasmuch as the guys we do have are more playable if they have improves. Also a year of continuity on a team that had massive roster turnover ought to help with team defense and understanding roles.

But our D is not what will win us games. The above line-up prevents Russ from defaulting to his least efficient shot, and gives him lethal kick-out options and players to reliably credit him with assists if teams load up to stop his interior attack.

Check his shot stats. He is prolific and dangerous at the rim, sub par if he settles for a jumper. If you are paying a guy 40 million dollars a year you want to maximize what he does well. He balled out when Houston went to a 5 out system. WIth a line that has Beal Bertans and Bryant next to Russ, we have 4 of 5 who are able to hit from long range. Whomever else we add to that mix ought to either be able to hit a ranged shot, or set smart picks and screens to wall off attack lanes for Russ or spring Beal/Bertans free for a jumper. Rui, for whatever talents he has, does not yet read the floor and play the team game by instinct. Maybe playing alongside Russ will develop that skillset? IF so I can see the reasoning to get him seasoning with the starters. But it's not a strength. Yeah, if he starts hitting 3pt shots at a high rate then he is more playable, but his team game is not yet there, and his rebounding is subpar for a Big. Okay our future is higher if he gets good, so run with the starters may be key. And Deni being already more skilled may mean he does well with the 2nd line crew. But. If wins are what we are hunting, maximizing our starters skill set seems to be the way to go.

I just don't buy the argument that we should just accept that our defense sucks and not worry about addressing it with better defensive personnel. It's not like there's a floor on sucking. Sucking even worse still costs you points. And if detracting from the defense costs you more points than improving the offense helps, they you are still coming out behind in the equation.

The way I see it, there are diminishing returns for each additional good offensive player on the floor. Going from 4 good offensive players to 5 good offensive players isn't going to be that dramatic of an improvement on offense. A well designed offense can put the 5th best offensive player in a very limited role where he can just catch-and-shoot from the corner. However, removing our only legitimately good defender from the floor (Bonga) could be a significant detraction from our defense. Having one good defender on the floor is MUCH better than having none. He can guard the opposition's best wing, which means he plays an integral role in nearly every defensive possession. There's a reason Bonga had such great on/off numbers last year.

If Brown or Avdija prove to be nearly as effective defensively as Bonga, then, sure, start them. But if they don't, I think we're better off with Bonga even though Bonga can't do much on offense except shoot a slow-release corner 3.

[payitforward]

Don't sleep on JRob, folks. If he continues to improve his 3pt shooting (he shot .349% from 3 since joining the Zards) and his D is the best among the players competing for minutes at the backup 2 & 3 (which it is), he'll rightfully earn minutes.

His defense is better than Brown and Avdija? Not disagreeing, I just didn’t notice that last season. Didn't watch much of the bubble though.

His on ball defense at the guard position is better than Brown. He doesn't have the size to be a switchable 1 through 4 defender like Avdija.

Except in obvious cases, it's extremely difficult to assess defense individually (though, clearly, the worse the team is overall the worse the individuals are -- duh). The key thing is that Brooks praised Robinson for his man defense during the bubble. Mostly, that's where the positivity on Robinson as a defender has come from. I'm not questioning that positivity, btw.

[doclinkin]

As for Troy Brown. I like the leadership he has shown even as a young player. Beal and Westbrook will get too many minutes in general, but I think we will find ways to rest them. If TBJ progresses as he has been, then at some point he surpasses Ish as the first guard off the bench. If he has added a 3pt shot and quicker perimeter D, then he can replace either Russ or Brad. As a SF I'd want to see him finish better on the interior, or yes develop a confident 3pt shot.

As it stands I don't think he has zero role on this team. In fact if he would embrace it, I think his role is as a 3 position utility player. A consummate 6-man whose job it is to be first off the bench to replace any player 1-3, and to act as floor general of the 2nd unit.

I think a Ish/JRob, TBJ/JRob, Bonga, Deni, Lopez unit would have savvy and smarts and toughness, and decent enough defense when we need to hold a lead and give the starters a breather. As far as BBIQ and team play, they would shine. Cuts and movement off the ball, ballhandling from Ish/TBJ/Deni, passing and offball movement from Bonga/Deni, RoLo posted in the corner as a three option.

TBJ adds depth at any perimeter slot. He is a bench all by himself. He can be trusted to do his job and know his role. IF a starter needs a sub, or needs a rest day, or catches a DNP from injury or quarantine, it is a relief for any coach to have a trustworthy and reliable utility player who shows leadership and coachability. I think if he were smart he would set his sights on being a HOF 6th man. Too good not to have on any winning team, but no need to star so long as the team is posting W's.

[prime1time]

I think Russ will be able to get to the rim. He’s never not been able to get to the rim even when he played with Roberson, Grant and Adams. My main concern is that Scottie needs to be smart about rotations. We should be staggering Russ and Beal. Sadly I don’t know if he’ll do it. He has a strong love for all bench lineups.

[NatP4]

When will it ever make since to play Jerome Robinson? Outside of him being a lottery pick, why does he even play? He was a bad college player for 2 years, he’s been a bad NBA player for 2 years. Wouldn’t it always make more since for Garrison Mathews to be on the court over Robinson? Or Troy Brown jr, even Neto is a better player.

I don’t think Robinson is a lost cause, he just won’t be better than a handful of other options on the roster.

[doclinkin]

I just don't buy the argument that we should just accept that our defense sucks and not worry about addressing it with better defensive personnel. It's not like there's a floor on sucking. Sucking even worse still costs you points. And if detracting from the defense costs you more points than improving the offense helps, they you are still coming out behind in the equation.

The way I see it, there are diminishing returns for each additional good offensive player on the floor. Going from 4 good offensive players to 5 good offensive players isn't going to be that dramatic of an improvement on offense. A well designed offense can put the 5th best offensive player in a very limited role where he can just catch-and-shoot from the corner. However, removing our only legitimately good defender from the floor (Bonga) could be a significant detraction from our defense. Having one good defender on the floor is MUCH better than having none. He can guard the opposition's best wing, which means he plays an integral role in nearly every defensive possession. There's a reason Bonga had such great on/off numbers last year.

If Brown or Avdija prove to be nearly as effective defensively as Bonga, then, sure, start them. But if they don't, I think we're better off with Bonga even though Bonga can't do much on offense except shoot a slow-release corner 3.

I like Bonga and if he earns a starting role I'm all for it. I tend to be a defense oriented fan. It frustrates me that the team has defaulted on this aspect of the game. But. They have. Robin Lopez and Raul Neto were their answers for how to upgrade the D. That's it.

From where I stand, I agree in general there are diminishing returns on offense. HOWEVER we have added a historically high-usage player (like #2 usage rate all time IIRC) who has significant holes in his game that lead to inefficiency. Any thing we do that maximizes his strengths and minimizes his deficits will have a magnified effect. Putting him in the game next to a floor-stretching phenomenon like Bertans is a weapon that will break many team's will. At the highest levels, games are won by the star players. Like it or not Westbrook is our alpha dog star. Even Beal is a secondary player next to him.

Teams who are lead by a high usage ballhandling PG rarely win. Stef Curry is the only one I can recall in 20 years (or Kyrie, though I'd credit the LeBJ effect, since he wins everywhere with anyone and Kyrie hasn't). And Curry won because he had ideal role players who do pass, and because Stef can play off the ball better than anyone I have ever seen. But Russ is what we've got. Night in and night out, he is going to get more touches than anyone else. As Russ goes, we go.

In the future it would be awesome if Rui and Deni develop into All-stars. Maybe salting them into the starting line gets them there quicker. So I'll nod to the future and pencil them in at whichever spot. But. Russ running into traffic without proper weapons around him is a recipe for Russ to try do too much. Russ is really only successful when he is ABLE to do too much, not try to do too much.