Political Roundtable Part XXX

[dobrojim]

Woo hoo!!!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2021/07/06/howard-nikole-hannah-jones-tanehisi-coates/

A coup for HU and a shameful episode for UNC.

and as long as we're talking about history

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/07/05/texas-republicans-rush-guard-alamo-facts/

I for one am not the least bit surprised that Texans would determinedly try to, in their own eyes,
make their history sound better than it actually is. As with all the cases, they might 'win' in the short
term but the truth will remain the truth. And credibility, once lost, is difficult to reclaim.

[Pointgod]

Woo hoo!!!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2021/07/06/howard-nikole-hannah-jones-tanehisi-coates/

Hahaha. I love how Nikole Hannah Jones said **** you to UNC and took her talents to Howard. Conservative cancel culture backfires yet again. **** idiots. Imagine losing a decorated journalist like Hannah Jones because of white tears.

[Pointgod]

This is the best part about Nikole Hannah Jones dumping UNC lmao

Read on Twitter

Good job stepping on your own dicks you idiots. Lmao

[I_Like_Dirt]

They may be hiding something or they may simply be reflexively resistant to anyone outside
of the country looking at them in any way that might reflect poorly on them. Either
one of these is completely plausible. I certainly don't know myself and I reflexively
dismiss people who try to pretend they do know, especially people with a clear agenda.

Definitely. I dismiss people who approach issues like this without an open mind. It's just that the same logic I use to dismiss people who are making obviously racist and hate-filled claims tends to be similar to the logic I use when dismissing people who pretend like there probably isn't a problem at all when there obviously is.

The thing is, I have no idea if it's a lab leak or not but there is sewer evidence from Europe and across the world that covid was spreading way before March when the alarm was sounding. Actively trying to prevent an investigation into what happened that might actually help in dealing with problems in the future comes across very similarly as the police telling us to trust them since they investigated the issue of all the bodycams malfunctioning at one and it was exactly as they say it is having revised their story a few times.

It wouldn't even have to be a lab leak. It's pretty clear at this point China definitely has something involving chemical or biological weapons in the area they don't want to admit to. The US has all that stuff too. It might just be really, really bad luck on China's part. But these are questions that can we can only begin to try to answer with China's help and they're refusing it. We shouldn't be jumping to conclusions but being naive about it is a dangerous game.

Sent from my SM-G970W using Tapatalk

ok, but we have people for this. it's above all of our paygrades to try and be armchair spies. it's even above investigative journalists' paygrades. getting to the bottom of the origins of covid is actual spycraft with world-altering diplomatic and global economic consequences.

plus, even if China did make covid, no one can held them accountable anyway. they're too powerful. the same as the US gets to do whatever it wants (hoard vaccines for itself, fight "wars on terror" on other sovereign nations' soil spanning decades, unilaterally impose economic sanctions and trade wars, flout carbon reduction agreements) without any external accountability.

the only ones that can even begin to try and hold the Chinese government accountable are the people, the same with the US. China needs to democratize (as does the US, tbf).

I'm not sure I understand your point. It's possible to not be an armchair spy while also not being naive about things. The problem is that the issue is a many-edged sword. Buying into an explanation that is obviously wrong because there is evidence to the contrary just begets more questions and causes greater doubts from the populace and definitely doesn't serve to help democratize the US (as you point out needs to happen), and covid was obviously aroundin 2019. Xenophobic paranoia hurts a lot too but it's not an either/or situation and you're sadly going to get that xenophobic paranoia anyway, probably all the more if you sow doubt into the official position and the only other loud argument there is terrible.

As for China, I very much doubt they care if the American public thinks it was a lab leak or not. They want to posture for their own people and try to cause division between the US and its allies.

As an aside, I do feel as though climate change is in the process of going full kool-aid man on the conversation and that's already proven to be far more divisive and prone to xenophobia. It's an unfortunately common theme lately that won't go away by ignoring issues it touches.

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[Zonkerbl]

If COVID is the best bioweapon China has, their WMD program SUCKS

Extremely ineffective at targeting certain populations, way too difficult to deploy, does just as much damage to you as it does to the enemy, it's just a disaster. If COVID was my bioweapon I would also be too embarrassed to admit it.

IT'S OBVIOUSLY NOT A BIOWEAPON GUYS. Maybe they were experimenting with it to study its properties. But it's not Captain Trips ok?

[I_Like_Dirt]

If COVID is the best bioweapon China has, their WMD program SUCKS

Extremely ineffective at targeting certain populations, way too difficult to deploy, does just as much damage to you as it does to the enemy, it's just a disaster. If COVID was my bioweapon I would also be too embarrassed to admit it.

IT'S OBVIOUSLY NOT A BIOWEAPON GUYS. Maybe they were experimenting with it to study its properties. But it's not Captain Trips ok?

Who said it was a bioweapon? I mean, I suppose it might be but I highly doubt it and nobody here has said thay. You're just making up a straw man to try and dismiss the issue rather than just ignoring the issue and moving on. It's not your position I take issue with, it's your methods. What's odd to me is this concerted push to true to manually shut the topic down rather than just letting it die naturally as something we don't know for sure.

And how and where it came about definitely matters because the information helps us deal with future pandemics, and there will definitely be future pandemics. It might have even started outside China for all we know as members of the public. We know it was in sewers in Europe and North America in 2019. My only point in all of this was that it's not credible that it started in wet markets in February 2020 given that reality. This whole idea that we need to stick to that line of thinking is confusing to me. Far more easier to simply admit we don't know and that the subject doesn't interest you - except the passion in the responses I've received here suggests the subject does interest people. If the argument is that you don't like how the discussion tends to be a flashpoint for racist takes, then say that and we can agree again.

Sent from my SM-G970W using RealGM mobile app

[doclinkin]

If COVID is the best bioweapon China has, their WMD program SUCKS

Extremely ineffective at targeting certain populations, way too difficult to deploy, does just as much damage to you as it does to the enemy, it's just a disaster. If COVID was my bioweapon I would also be too embarrassed to admit it.

IT'S OBVIOUSLY NOT A BIOWEAPON GUYS. Maybe they were experimenting with it to study its properties. But it's not Captain Trips ok?

Who said it was a bioweapon? I mean, I suppose it might be but I highly doubt it and nobody here has said that. You're just making up a straw man to try and dismiss the issue rather than just ignoring the issue and moving on. It's not your position I take issue with, it's your methods. What's odd to me is this concerted push to true to manually shut the topic down rather than just letting it die naturally as something we don't know for sure.

And how and where it came about definitely matters because the information helps us deal with future pandemics, and there will definitely be future pandemics. It might have even started outside China for all we know as members of the public. We know it was in sewers in Europe and North America in 2019. My only point in all of this was that it's not credible that it started in wet markets in February 2020 given that reality. This whole idea that we need to stick to that line of thinking is confusing to me. Far more easier to simply admit we don't know and that the subject doesn't interest you - except the passion in the responses I've received here suggests the subject does interest people. If the argument is that you don't like how the discussion tends to be a flashpoint for racist takes, then say that and we can agree again.

Epidemiologists have been predicting a SARS mutation though for a while though. It was partly the reason for the pandemic playbook left by the Obama administration. Mutations happen all the time, I too doubt that it can be pinned specifically to wet markets. Yes that is a story that sells, because we don't eat bats in america, it makes it easier to point to damn foreigners as the problem, rather pay attention to the idea that it carries the seed of: the more humans encroach on environments, the more we become the environment. Yes China with a dense population is a fine incubator for this sort of thing. As I expect would be Brazil. Mexico City. Manhattan. If not COVID, or ebola, or avian flu, etc, at some point it would have been something else.

[Zonkerbl]

If it's not a bioweapon then IT DOESN'T MATTER (if it was leaked from a lab in Wuhan), that's why

And I'm not explaining this again [edit - for all the reasons you just described, dirt - however COVID came about, and it is important that we study THAT, a lab leak in Wuhan had nothing to do with it, UNLESS IT WAS A BIOWEAPON]

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

?s=19

[pancakes3]

"your honor, i didn't steal that purse, i won it on the battlefield."

jesse watters' neighbor should clock him in the noggin with a tire iron and win himself some additional square footage.

[Zonkerbl]

Read on Twitter

?s=19

Since the winners dictate the terms, I'm sure Jesse won't mind if we, the victors, demand all Confederate statues be taken down

[TGW]

This is the epitome of corporate corruption. Makes no sense why members of government are allowed to buy stock in any company with government contracts. No wonder both sides of the aisle neutered the SEC's oversight power.

Watch on YouTube

[dckingsfan]

Back to the both sides argument

This wasn't proposed by a Republican:
https://www.businessinsider.com/elizabeth-warren-reintroduces-legislation-to-ban-lawmakers-from-stock-trading-2020-12

[dckingsfan]

One more thing on the both sides argument...

Where are the Republicans on any kind of Climate Change mitigation program? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

[dckingsfan]

Okay, and one more thing on the both sides argument...

Where are the Democrats on voter suppression? I keep missing their bills to block people from voting. What gives?

[I_Like_Dirt]

If COVID is the best bioweapon China has, their WMD program SUCKS

Extremely ineffective at targeting certain populations, way too difficult to deploy, does just as much damage to you as it does to the enemy, it's just a disaster. If COVID was my bioweapon I would also be too embarrassed to admit it.

IT'S OBVIOUSLY NOT A BIOWEAPON GUYS. Maybe they were experimenting with it to study its properties. But it's not Captain Trips ok?

Who said it was a bioweapon? I mean, I suppose it might be but I highly doubt it and nobody here has said that. You're just making up a straw man to try and dismiss the issue rather than just ignoring the issue and moving on. It's not your position I take issue with, it's your methods. What's odd to me is this concerted push to true to manually shut the topic down rather than just letting it die naturally as something we don't know for sure.

And how and where it came about definitely matters because the information helps us deal with future pandemics, and there will definitely be future pandemics. It might have even started outside China for all we know as members of the public. We know it was in sewers in Europe and North America in 2019. My only point in all of this was that it's not credible that it started in wet markets in February 2020 given that reality. This whole idea that we need to stick to that line of thinking is confusing to me. Far more easier to simply admit we don't know and that the subject doesn't interest you - except the passion in the responses I've received here suggests the subject does interest people. If the argument is that you don't like how the discussion tends to be a flashpoint for racist takes, then say that and we can agree again.

Epidemiologists have been predicting a SARS mutation though for a while though. It was partly the reason for the pandemic playbook left by the Obama administration. Mutations happen all the time, I too doubt that it can be pinned specifically to wet markets. Yes that is a story that sells, because we don't eat bats in america, it makes it easier to point to damn foreigners as the problem, rather pay attention to the idea that it carries the seed of: the more humans encroach on environments, the more we become the environment. Yes China with a dense population is a fine incubator for this sort of thing. As I expect would be Brazil. Mexico City. Manhattan. If not COVID, or ebola, or avian flu, etc, at some point it would have been something else.

We've seen just how amazing a lot of these places are for covid firsthand. The proof is in the pudding. The catch is that knowing where these things actually come from matters so that we know where to look to take steps when it happens. Yes, mutations could happen at any point but the reality is that this particular outbreak simmered under the world's noses for several months before anyone really noticed.

Despite the all caps claims to the contrary in this thread, it's definitely worthwhile to figure out how that might have happened. It's fun to blame Trump, and he certainly did his best to poor fuel on the fire but this was and is a global problem and it would be nice to have a chance to avoid giving the next pandemic a several months head start. What's curious to me is that I get the distinct impression that if there was some sort of rumor that this had come from a lab leak in Boston, that a lot of people here wouldn't be nearly so quick to dismiss it as irrelevant.

As an aside, I also disagree with how you painted humanity. Humans don't encroach on the environment. Humans are a part of the environment. The belief that we can somehow separate ourselves from nature is a part of how we've gotten into this mess. We just happen to be maybe the most destructive force of nature this planet has ever known with the only competition being massive repeated volcanic eruptions and the biggest meteor impacts. Any means we have of figuring out how to change that would be much appreciated because destroying the environment is just another way of saying we're destroying ourselves.

[pancakes3]

it's one thing to say "we need to find out the origins" and "we need to see if the origins came from a lab or not"

https://www.sciencealert.com/new-analysis-makes-strong-case-that-covid-19-sprung-from-animals

[dckingsfan]

It's fun to blame Trump, and he certainly did his best to poor fuel on the fire but this was and is a global problem and it would be nice to have a chance to avoid giving the next pandemic a several months head start.

No, it isn't fun to blame Trump - he was an epic failure at Covid. And a reminder - he was THE major driver of the infodemic around Covid. Sorry, but this one boomerangs back on us as much as on the Chinese.

You might note that there are other countries that handled this better. NZ, Australia, SK for example.

Why? They locked down international travel, they put a test, trace quarantine/isolate program in place, they adopted the swiss cheese approach (social distance, masking, et. al.).

The lessons to be learned are from those that handled Covid the best - first and foremost. BTW, the lesson that the Europeans should have learned from us is on not cheaping out or delaying getting the vaccine in place.

Either way, Trump did more harm to us and the rest of the globe for that matter with his infodemic and supporting the herd immunity folks than the Chinese could ever have done. Full Stop.

One major finding is that media mentions of President Trump within the context of different misinformation topics made up 37% of the overall “misinformation conversation,” much more than any other single topic. The study concludes that Donald Trump was likely the largest driver of the COVID-19 misinformation “infodemic.”

https://allianceforscience.cornell.edu/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Evanega-et-al-Coronavirus-misinformationFINAL.pdf

[Zonkerbl]

Ok this is what I don't understand.

A guy on twitter says "I read the Wade article and it convinced me." Ok. Here it is.

https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/

"As many people know, there are two main theories about its origin. One is that it jumped naturally from wildlife to people. The other is that the virus was under study in a lab, from which it escaped"

This makes zero sense. These are not mutually exclusive. There are in fact three scenarios:

1) It jumped naturally from wildlife to people and the Wuhan lab never had a sample of it
2) It jumped naturally from wildlife to people and the Wuhan lab was studying it (in which case it doesn't matter if it leaked or not)
3) It did not jump naturally from wildlife to people, the Wuhan lab instead created it as part of China's bioweapons program and then accidentally leaked it

Anyway let me read the rest of the article, may take me a sec. Maybe it's just poorly drafted and will make sense later. I'm not holding my breath.

[pancakes3]

there's already plenty of things to be mad at china about that don't require armchair spycraft. digging into stuff like this just signals that you're looking for additional reasons to justify your dislike of china, which is facially unproductive.

like, i don't need reasons to dislike trump without spending time speculating on whether or not the n-word tape or the pee tape exists.